Eternal Security - If saved, always saved! Part 1. - By David Stewart

[Red33]

[/color]

Oh I am wrong and you the only one who will confront me on it? Dude you have issues. James confronted you, and you refuse to see him. Someone who claims to have faith, but has NO WORK (NO CHANGED LIFE) is dead. They have zero faith. because they have not repented!

How can one have faith if they still hate God, Still do not see themselves as sinners. Still do not see themselves as condemned, and still does not see Christ as the only way? They can't. How does one get to this point? they must repent. why? because all the things I showed is what every man woman and child believes before Christ. Thus no repentance. No salvation.

If you do not believe those, you will not be saved, that is fact. If you do not think your a sinner, you will go on sinning, If you do not think you need Christ, You will not trust in his words. etc etc.[/color]

I am not your 'dude', so you can put away that term. I do have issues, but would you like to clarify for others what you believe those issues to be? Do I cleave to the grace of God too much for your liking? A changed life starts on the inside with the inner man and that's where the renewal takes place (Eph 3:16, 2Cor 4:16). We become new creatures in Christ the moment God saves us and we are born again, but we have to be transformed and renewed in the spirit of our minds and that is a continuous ongoing process of transformation. We have our uprisings and its downsittings (Ps 139:2 -ups and downs), but God knows it all and He is searching and calling us unto the deep things of God (1Cor 2:10,11). No one can see that work going on outwardly because it is happening on the inside with the inner man. All you guys get stuck on this repentance stuff and demand to see an outward change or something is wrong.

We are to walk by faith and not by sight (2Cor 5:7, Rom 5:1,2, 1:17, Gal 3:11) and walk in wisdom toward them that are without (Col 4:5).You make a judgment without wisdom or discretion and in part you turn the grace of God into lasciviousness upon these believers by not allowing God's grace to work and take the time it needs to transform the individual, so that their ways become God's ways and their thoughts become God's thoughts. Not everyone has the same capacity for the things of God and some need alot more grace, time and patience than others. We are to bestow more abundant honor on them that seem less honorable (1Cor 12:23,24) because the uncomely parts have need and God wants to temper the body.

 

[chasten]

Humans have been putting God into boxes of human creation since the beginning of time itself. They use such noble words as all powerful, all knowing, and still they want to limit God to how they themselves understand those terms. God has no freedom to choose under those terms. He "must" always get His way and He "must" always be unchangeable, and he "MUST " do all those things that such people want of their God. Such a God has no need for faith he gets whatever He wants regardless of any other factor anywhere in the universe.

Hebrews says everything is ordained. He knows every thought you think before you make it, he knows everytime you change your mind, etc, etc. Being all knowing, means all knowing, he knows things that are outside our universal way of thinking. He might have ten different universes up on his shelf. We dont know. So if he IS all knowing, and he is incorruptible, implying that he is unchangeable, he is perfect. So maybe those are personality traits, maybe thats why thier in the bible, so we have a basis for a relationship. So maybe, his purpose for us, is love, because one its the only thing we have to offer, that would be of any use to such an awesome god, who knows everything, so therefore, maybe everytime people put god in these 'human boxes' as you say, its not that we are putting him there, but that he is putting himself there, for our understanding, so that he can get our love, and a relationship.

 

[chasten]

I am not your 'dude', so you can put away that term. I do have issues, but would you like to clarify for others what you believe those issues to be? Do I cleave to the grace of God too much for your liking? A changed life starts on the inside with the inner man and that's where the renewal takes place (Eph 3:16, 2Cor 4:16). We become new creatures in Christ the moment God saves us and we are born again, but we have to be transformed and renewed in the spirit of our minds and that is a continuous ongoing process of transformation. We have our uprisings and its downsittings (Ps 139:2 -ups and downs), but God knows it all and He is searching and calling us unto the deep things of God (1Cor 2:10,11). No one can see that work going on outwardly because it is happening on the inside with the inner man. All you guys get stuck on this repentance stuff and demand to see an outward change or something is wrong.

We are to walk by faith and not by sight (2Cor 5:7, Rom 5:1,2, 1:17, Gal 3:11) and walk in wisdom toward them that are without (Col 4:5).You make a judgment without wisdom or discretion and in part you turn the grace of God into lasciviousness upon these believers by not allowing God's grace to work and take the time it needs to transform the individual, so that their ways become God's ways and their thoughts become God's thoughts. Not everyone has the same capacity for the things of God and some need alot more grace, time and patience than others. We are to bestow more abundant honor on them that seem less honorable (1Cor 12:23,24) because the uncomely parts have need and God wants to temper the body.

First, being changed from the inside out means dropping anything judgemental. I dont see anyway repentacew has to do with outward appearances, this is clearly stereotypical. I beleive in repentance, and I also believe my spiritual growth, is of high priority, to both Jesus and myself, so that blows that theory out of the water. I guess everyone has something they could work on, eh? In your second paragraph you said "and walk in wisdom toward them that are without (Col 4:5).You make a judgment without wisdom or discretion and take the time it needs to transform the individual, so that their ways become God's ways and their thoughts become God's thoughts. Not everyone has the same capacity for the things of God" But Im wondering if you really beleive that. Beleiving in repentance is one thing, and wanting to help other people, the best way you know how, is exactly what you just stated. Which is EXACTLY what he just did. So, really, using your logic nobodys actually wrong, but somehow you cant find it to forgive him? The bible does say to repent, but thats beyond the point?

 

[Katy-follower]

They have been lied to by false prophets like John MacArthur to think that they must live lives of obedience, holiness and faithfulness to be saved.

I agree that we have eternal security (as I've made my thoughts known in other forums) but I have to just say one thing here - I don't agree that John MacArthur is a false prophet. He does not believe in works for salvation Quote: "We teach that salvation is wholly of God by grace on the basis of the redemption of Jesus Christ, the merit of His shed blood, and not on the basis of human merit or works". He also teaches eternal security. Quote: "We teach that all the redeemed once saved are kept by God's power and are thus secure in Christ forever". He's a very sound pastor and his teachings are biblical.

For some reason he was accused back in the 70's of teaching a different Gospel and the masses have continued to tar his name ever since. If people would listen to his sermons, they are very much in line with scripture. I'm tired of the enemy attacking the best pastors. I will say that his teachings are biblical, as for any personal thoughts, like "rapture/no rapture" "eschatology" etc, like all Christians, everyone has different thoughts on these but they are not salvation related.

Although I have found some interesting information on the website you got that info from (jesus-is-savior), I've often gasped at how far the website goes to label almost everyone a heretic. I use discernment with that site. John MacArthur is not a heretic and I think the site owner needs to review some of his articles and where he's getting his information from. It would be good if he could go over past articles and actually listen to sermons to verify if these people are heretics.

**By the way, not familiar with the other pastors you mention, so can't give comment on them**

(John MacArthur Statement of Faith) Link --> What is Grace to You's doctrinal statement?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am not your 'dude', so you can put away that term. I do have issues, but would you like to clarify for others what you believe those issues to be? Do I cleave to the grace of God too much for your liking? A changed life starts on the inside with the inner man and that's where the renewal takes place (Eph 3:16, 2Cor 4:16). We become new creatures in Christ the moment God saves us and we are born again,

only if you have repented will this happen.

John taught repent
Jesus taught repent
Ninevah will judge people because they repented.
These did not find grace because they did not repent.

i can go on and on and on

Scripture is full of passages which prove this point. If you don't like it, Go yell at God. I am not saying but what he said.

Why are you denying this? that is your issue. and if your going to talk to me the way youi did. You are a dude. it is a nice way of saying what I realy want to say, if you have issues with it. thats too bad.

but we have to be transformed and renewed in the spirit of our minds and that is a continuous ongoing process of transformation. We have our uprisings and its downsittings (Ps 139:2 -ups and downs), but God knows it all and He is searching and calling us unto the deep things of God (1Cor 2:10,11). No one can see that work going on outwardly because it is happening on the inside with the inner man. All you guys get stuck on this repentance stuff and demand to see an outward change or something is wrong.

1. God says those born of him WILL have an outward change, it is not us, Your argument is with God. you want us to believe people have have mere belief without repentnance and he will get to heaven even if he continues to live like he did before. This is not what scripture teaches, it is a licentious gospel. condemned by Paul, John, Jude and Peter.

2. Yes God does change us form the inside, Yes we will have ups and downs. But even with ups and downs, people will see a change, I am not saying a person will or must be perfect. that is the legalists. But if there is no change it is because there was no repentance. thus there was no faith. Thus you no better than the demons who also believe in Christ.

We are to walk by faith and not by sight (2Cor 5:7, Rom 5:1,2, 1:17, Gal 3:11) and walk in wisdom toward them that are without (Col 4:5).You make a judgment without wisdom or discretion and in part you turn the grace of God into lasciviousness upon these believers by not allowing God's grace to work and take the time it needs to transform the individual, so that their ways become God's ways and their thoughts become God's thoughts. Not everyone has the same capacity for the things of God and some need alot more grace, time and patience than others. We are to bestow more abundant honor on them that seem less honorable (1Cor 12:23,24) because the uncomely parts have need and God wants to temper the body.

thanks, you just proved me right, we have to walk by faith. Faith can only happen through repentance. And yes, some people will take more time, but one who has truly repented will show some sign of proofs he has repented. as james said, I will prove my faith by my works. and as paul said, we are saved BY GRACE through FAITH, and this salvation will get us to do the work he created us to do. not perfection. but if their is no fruit of repentnance, there is no salvation. you can argue all you want,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Does God have Faith? If God Himself never takes risks then He has no need of faith. Logically then, since Faith is the primary requirement of Christianity He is asking us to have something he Himself does not have.

This makes no sense. God is God, he knows everything that has happened, will happen, or could happen. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. God can't have faith because he sees everything, We can't. he is asking us to trust him. Not telling us to do something he won't do,

For God to take a risk means that while it might be possible that He could know everything, He chooses not to know, or the future is not knowable.

The logical inconsistencies presented by the Calvinists, essentially requires God to be the creator of evil. Argument goes: God created everything, evil exists ergo God created evil. There is no escaping it. The pretzel logic required by Calvinists is amusing. For any other possible creation of evil means that God is not the only creator ergo God did not create everything.

Agree

Humans have been putting God into boxes of human creation since the beginning of time itself. They use such noble words as all powerful, all knowing, and still they want to limit God to how they themselves understand those terms. God has no freedom to choose under those terms. He "must" always get His way and He "must" always be unchangeable, and he "MUST " do all those things that such people want of their God. Such a God has no need for faith he gets whatever He wants regardless of any other factor anywhere in the universe.

This is the lie of satan, one of the many that keep people from knowing and understanding God fully. I agree.

I subscribe to what is called Open Theism. Look it up in Wikipedia if you have never read about it before. The transcendental qualities of God are not limiting factors but tools He can use when and If He chooses. The single most important thing about God that we humans can participate in is Faith. He takes risks and we do also. This does not mean that God will necessarily always get what He wants, but He can in fact put plan 'B' into effect if plan 'A' does not work out.

God does not take risks. However, he will use things knowing we will fail to help us, or others grow in him. Saying God takes risks or does not know everything takes away from Gods character and omniscients. and makes him human and not God. this is a dangerous thing to do, and is no better than the calvanist.

God never offered eternal security to us, never intended for that condition because it means a death to our growing and changing and gaining maturity.

Wow. He didn't? Here is satans lie to the greatest. Eternal security does not mean a change or death to our growing. it means we have the ability to grow. the ability to fail, The ability to know God better, for without it, we are dead in sin, and the things of God are foolsihness to us. We do not have a spirit of adoption whereby we can cry out abba father when we mess up, fail, or have needs, we instead have a spirit of fear. Which is a spirit of satan.

Eternal security is Satan's imitation of God, set out to prevent us from ever being the fully grown, fully mature individuals. There are far too many baby Christians, people who have no ability to understand, they are theological robots following orders from God.

wow. where do you get this? I pray you learn about God and his eternal mercy and forgiveness. Eternal security does not keep people babies. Our pride and lack of repentance does.

When and if we make mistakes, we repent, God forgives us and we move on. Making mistakes is the result of risking, it is the method by which we learn and grow and taking the risk out of life would be a tragedy.

The penalty of sin is death, When we sin we can get on our knees, beg, cry and do whatever we want, we will still be condemned for that sin, The penalty of sin is not repenting, being baptised, going to church, crying, felling sorry or any other religious ceremony or tradition. It is death. ONLY the death of Christ can wash our sin, As paul says, NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DOND, but by HIS MERCY, HE SAVED US, by the WASHING AND RENEWING of the HS.

those who say eternal security is a lie must deny this verse. for you say it IS BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which we do. and not just by Gods mercy, Grace is underserved, your trying to earn it. and twisting the truth in order to continue in this false gospel of works.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Humans have been putting God into boxes of human creation since the beginning of time itself. They use such noble words as all powerful, all knowing, and still they want to limit God to how they themselves understand those terms. God has no freedom to choose under those terms. He "must" always get His way and He "must" always be unchangeable, and he "MUST " do all those things that such people want of their God. Such a God has no need for faith he gets whatever He wants regardless of any other factor anywhere in the universe.

Hebrews says everything is ordained. He knows every thought you think before you make it, he knows everytime you change your mind, etc, etc. Being all knowing, means all knowing, he knows things that are outside our universal way of thinking. He might have ten different universes up on his shelf. We dont know. So if he IS all knowing, and he is incorruptible, implying that he is unchangeable, he is perfect. So maybe those are personality traits, maybe thats why thier in the bible, so we have a basis for a relationship. So maybe, his purpose for us, is love, because one its the only thing we have to offer, that would be of any use to such an awesome god, who knows everything, so therefore, maybe everytime people put god in these 'human boxes' as you say, its not that we are putting him there, but that he is putting himself there, for our understanding, so that he can get our love, and a relationship.

amen, David told God he knew him (everything he would do say think) before he was in his mothers womb. If people understood this, they would reject the idea that Gods eternal life is not eternal. and eternal security is REAL. For they would know, no matter when you think God saved you (before time when you were predestined, or at the moment you trusted him) God did so knowing everything you would do from that time until the day you die. and they would know if God already saved you knowing that, you could never lose salvation. for God saved you already knowing what you would do. Saying eternal security is a lie is like saying we suprised God and did something he did not die for, or did not know we would do. so he must take his gift back. it mocks God and his essence and character.

 

[celestemekent]

So "eternally grateful", you MUST also believe that

God created evil too.

Because if God did not, then who else had the creative power to do so????

The minute you argue for some other creative force you leave monotheism and go to the dualistic world of the Pagans.

Your argument is so shallow. Merely repeated dogma desperate to cling to old half truths. You are truly a "baby of faith." Unable to chew the meat of God's word.

According to the your argument humans are mere robots that have no choice in things and cannot accurately be blamed for their errors. My guess is that you, yourself do not blame people for what they cannot choose and yet you expect God to blame them for things they have no control over. Under this scheme your God is some monster creating a failed creature and then blaming them for their errors. It is illogical and perverse.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So "eternally grateful", you MUST also believe that

God created evil too.

Why must I believe that? that is rediculous your stereotyping me, and that is wrong. I am not a calvanist.

Because if God did not, then who else had the creative power to do so????

God did not create evil, He gave us free will and want us to follow him. It is man who chose to rebel. not God.

The minute you argue for some other creative force you leave monotheism and go to the dualistic world of the Pagans.

do what? It is obvious you did not read anything I said. stop stereotyping my by what you have been taught I must believe and listen to what I actually said.

Your argument is so shallow. Merely repeated dogma desperate to cling to old half truths. You are truly a "baby of faith." Unable to chew the meat of God's word.

You don't even know what I believe, yet you claim this? Wow girl. you need to get off your religsous upbringing and open your eyes, and see what people are saying before you start slamming people unfoundedly like you do.

According to the your argument humans are mere robots that have no choice in things and cannot accurately be blamed for their errors. My guess is that you, yourself do not blame people for what they cannot choose and yet you expect God to blame them for things they have no control over. Under this scheme your God is some monster creating a failed creature and then blaming them for their errors. It is illogical and perverse.

Once again. I am not calvanist. So if you want to continue to speak to me like I am because your being spoonfed what we must believe, all we will do is go in circles.

One does not need to reject freewil faith to believe in eternal security

However, one must believe God is not omniscient and omnipitent to believe eternal security is a lie. Your the one with the problem nbot understanding Gods character. not me.

 

[angelofmercy]

So "eternally grateful", you MUST also believe that

God created evil too.

Because if God did not, then who else had the creative power to do so????

The minute you argue for some other creative force you leave monotheism and go to the dualistic world of the Pagans.

Your argument is so shallow. Merely repeated dogma desperate to cling to old half truths. You are truly a "baby of faith." Unable to chew the meat of God's word.

According to the your argument humans are mere robots that have no choice in things and cannot accurately be blamed for their errors. My guess is that you, yourself do not blame people for what they cannot choose and yet you expect God to blame them for things they have no control over. Under this scheme your God is some monster creating a failed creature and then blaming them for their errors. It is illogical and perverse.

God DOES create evil.

 

[Red33]

God says those born of him WILL have an outward change, it is not us, Your argument is with God. you want us to believe people have have mere belief without repentnance and he will get to heaven even if he continues to live like he did before. This is not what scripture teaches, it is a licentious gospel. condemned by Paul, John, Jude and Peter.

You have used this statement many times over to justify what you believe about repentance. You are so far off the mark. I have never indicated what you state above in red at any time, but it is your only out. You boast of your repentance but you won't consider any of the following...

When you repented, just what did you repent of? How did you know or realize that you needed to repent? Did this happen when you first believed and what was the change that took place in your life? Did anything return in your life that you repented of? Was there ever a time that you doubted your salvation and doubted if you truly repented the way you believe God wanted you to? If God requires repentance for salvation, is repentance some kind of indication to God that you were serious or does He already know what is in your heart before you repent? If you fail in any area that you have already repented, does that mean you failed at true repentance also? Is it sin not to repent or to repent and fail in that area you repented of? I do not believe it is possible to repent or change our mind of anything unless God gives us an abundance of grace over and over until that grace overwhelms us and we want nothing but HIM! So many believers talk, talk and talk of repentance but never do they consider that an abundance of grace is the true premise for any repentance.

This reveals the faulty understanding that you preach and adhere to, but you will not answer those questions even to yourself and that is being deceitful in how you handle the Scriptures and how you conduct your understanding before God through the Spirit. You are very shallow when it comes to understanding the grace of God because you refuse to be taught. You will not submit yourself to a pastor-teacher and learn the word and doctrine from those that God has raised up for the church that you are a part of. You will not submit yourself to the grace of God when it comes to giving it to those that least deserve it. You are a nominal believer with legalistic tendencies who has never been established in your heart with grace. You have some good doctrine but without grace it has no power to transform anyone or bring redemption into the midst of a troubled situation that just might involve some wicked sin. You could never minister grace in a situation like that because all you could do is tell them to repent and how can they repent without grace, how can they be transformed without the power of the Holy Spirit ministering to them.

 

[owned-by-GOD]

obedience is the very best way to show that you believe.. just a song for everybody.. ^^ the only help i can give is prayer..

--praying for wisdom from the Holy Spirit..

 

[megaman125]

The penalty of sin is death, When we sin we can get on our knees, beg, cry and do whatever we want, we will still be condemned for that sin, The penalty of sin is not repenting, being baptised, going to church, crying, felling sorry or any other religious ceremony or tradition. It is death. ONLY the death of Christ can wash our sin, As paul says, NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DOND, but by HIS MERCY, HE SAVED US, by the WASHING AND RENEWING of the HS.

those who say eternal security is a lie must deny this verse. for you say it IS BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which we do. and not just by Gods mercy, Grace is underserved, your trying to earn it. and twisting the truth in order to continue in this false gospel of works.

I don't see how anyone denying the doctrine of once saved always saved is automatically proclaiming a works-based salvation.

Regardless, I'm still waiting for you to address 1 Timothy 4:1 and Hebrews 10:26-29 (among many other scriptures). If you have, please point me to that. If you haven't, then the once saved always saved doctrine should not be listened to.

 

[feedm3]

Megaman125,

This is a warning, I dont think you want their explanation of Heb 10:26-29.

Possible side effects:
1. Pulling out of hair
2. bumping forehead on desk repeatedly
3. loosing voice due to screaming "what!? are you serious??"

When hearing this explanation make sure you are not drinking anything as this has the potential of causing coking or spewing liquid from nostrils. Could be fatal.

You have been warned.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't see how anyone denying the doctrine of once saved always saved is automatically proclaiming a works-based salvation.

Regardless, I'm still waiting for you to address 1 Timothy 4:1 and Hebrews 10:26-29 (among many other scriptures). If you have, please point me to that. If you haven't, then the once saved always saved doctrine should not be listened to.

Of course ya don't, The pharisees did not see it either. Nor has many a proud people who think that one way or another, it is our actions which will determine our eternal destiny, and not the grace of God. Whether your actions before your saved by doing works like baptism or whatever, or you actions after you supposedly have been saved which will keep you saved, or cause you to lose it. it is all of works, and all in trying to earn a gift God said he is freely offering to us. so until you come to this view, I would not expect you to see it. Because it has been the lie satan has done since cain and abel. and so many millions of people us the same argument you use.

1 timothy 4.
You tell me, Did not Judas depart from the faith? was he not involved in the thing for which we all have faith in? He departed from that which could have saved him, which he followed for 3 years. but it is evident he never was saved.

How about the antiChrist's john spoke of? did they not depart the faith? We they not a part of the church in some means? did they not experience the faith that saved us all by being with people who were affected and blessed by that faith? But did John say, even though they depart from us, they were never truly of us (never saved) for if they were of us they never would have left? Did John not also say one who is born of God can not sin because the spirit of God resides in him, and he who sins has never seen God or known God, even though they may be part of the faith (church)

How about those James condemned, Where they not participating in the thing which gives us faith by assembling together. But did he not say they had no faith. because they had no works? The same with Jude? I can go on and on and on with scriptural evidence that these people were never saved.

What is the faith? the faith is the gospel, and everything which comes after it. Many people come to church and are part of that which gives us faith, but they never had faith themselves. And it will be evident in the end when they depart from that which could save them like Judas did, or the antichrist's in Johns letter did. But it never meant they were saved. There are many imposters in our churches. there is a great chance we do not even know who they are. But I do believe one day they will be exposed. If our eyes are open, these are the ones Paul is telling timothy, and us, about.

Hebrews what about it? It says they recieved, or heard the knowledge of truth, It does not say they accepted it, or that they trusted in it. What is the author saying? they heard it, but they continue in sin. who are these people? are they not the licentious people James spoke of? are they not the licentious people Jude condemned saying their judgment was forordained?


4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, (sinners) who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God[b] and our Lord Jesus Christ.

16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. 17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: 18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. 19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.


Are these not the very people Paul warned timothy about who would come in "latter times" and are these not the very same people The author of Hebrews is warning about. Who willfully sin, although as being an active member of whatever church they go to have "heard the message of faith or the gospel"



Once saved always saved doctrine is true because it is based solely on the promises of God, the death of Christ, and the righteousness of God given to us based on faith in Christ, If God takes back what he said was freely given, then God is a liar. and a thief. is that the God you worship and place your trust in?


Yes many creep in unnotessed who try to turn grace into licentiousness because they do nto have the spirit of God, and continue to sin willfully after they recieve the message of grace, But it is not because they lost salvation. It is because God knew their heart. and knew everything they would do from the time they professed they had faith until they died. Saying God saved them knowing these things is like saying God is suprised by them and did not know them. And mocks at the character of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Megaman125,

This is a warning, I dont think you want their explanation of Heb 10:26-29.

Possible side effects:
1. Pulling out of hair
2. bumping forehead on desk repeatedly
3. loosing voice due to screaming "what!? are you serious??"

When hearing this explanation make sure you are not drinking anything as this has the potential of causing coking or spewing liquid from nostrils. Could be fatal.

You have been warned.

this is like the blind leading the blind, we all know the end result of this scenario, and it is not pretty!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wow, this is a blessed day, I not only get to discuss a legalistic gospel based on works, But a licentious gospel based on lack of repentance. All in successive posts.

You have used this statement many times over to justify what you believe about repentance. You are so far off the mark. I have never indicated what you state above in red at any time, but it is your only out. You boast of your repentance but you won't consider any of the following...

Like the legalist who claims they do not teach works. Just because you refuse to admit you say as much, What you say and what you profess to not have done does not line up.


and before I go on, I would just like you to know you just exposed yourself. those in here who have seen me post have heard me say what you are about to claim I have never said many times. Thus they can see your false claims and insincerity. I know you have read them also. In fact I did it not to long ago. But you can't see it because your blinded by your belief, and in being so only see things you think you can counter attack, but are blinded to the things whihc would prove you wrong, so you put your foot in your mouth by using the very thing you fail to see, to try to expose someone, and in doing so, hurt yourself.

When you repented, just what did you repent of?

Do I need to repeat myself? How many times have I stated this? what does scripture say about those who are not God?

1. They hate God, do you still hate God and think his laws are unbearable and unwarrented and wrong?

or have you learned to understand Gods laws are just and he is a righteous God who has every right to impose his law on us, and also impose his judgment to all who break those laws? (repented)

2. They do not know they are sinners. Do you still think you are a basically good person, and God is not going to judge you because your not a sinner like the murderers and thief's and rapists?

or Do you admit it is your sin which separates you from God, no matter how minor or insignificant you think that sin may be(repented)

3. They try to get to God on their own terms. Are you trying to get to God by being good (the law) by your good deeds (sacraments or other religious works) and by stopping sin?

or have you admitted there is nothing you can do to make up for the sin you have already committed to make yourself right with God, let alone the sin you will commit from the time you say you are saved until the day you die? (repented)

I have just stated 3 of the basic things we all must repent of before we can come to faith in Christ. there are many many more.

how did you know or realize that you needed to repent?

Who is it that scripture tells us convicts us of sin righteousness and judgment which leads to repentance? or to no excuse?

Did this happen when you first believed and what was the change that took place in your life?

If it did not happen, I never would have placed my faith in the loving, righteous and justice of God and come to his saving faith, I would still be lost in my sin, or playing some religious game thinking I was saved, but no more saved than anyone else who did not come to the knowledge of God and repented.

Did anything return in your life that you repented of? Was there ever a time that you doubted your salvation and doubted if you truly repented the way you believe God wanted you to?

Everyone comes to a point that they doubt, As scripture says, we all have little faith in many areas, And you just exposed yourself again. How can you read what I type and sit here and ask my if I have returned to something I repented of? Here you go thinking repent means to feel sorrow for or ask forgiveness for. when it has nothing to do with the word. Scripture states all over the place Gods laws are written in our hearts. The HS convicts the whole world of Gods laws. How can I repent of sexual sin, when I already know in my heart it is a sin? If I already KNOW it is sin, then I already agree with God it is sin, so I can't repent of that sin. It is not repenting of personal sins which brings us to saving faith, it is repenting of the fact we are sinners, and are lost without the grace of God based solely on the death of his son on the cross.

Drug addicts are not healed in a moment of time, Neither neither are people who are addicted to anything which is sinful. Many struggle with it most of their lives, and may even fall back into it, But it does not mean they are not saved, If they have to stop to be saved we are teaching law. But it does not mean there will NOT be a change in their lives, that other sin areas which do not have such a major grasp are not taken care of. That their attitude towards God and his love and commands are not acted on. That their pride and selfishness is not changed. God says we will see a change in ones life. He does not say we will be sinless. As paul said, He was a wretched man, because even he struggles with sin, But even though he continues to sin, no one can deny the change in his life.

If God requires repentance for salvation, is repentance some kind of indication to God that you were serious or does He already know what is in your heart before you repent? If you fail in any area that you have already repented, does that mean you failed at true repentance also? Is it sin not to repent or to repent and fail in that area you repented of? I do not believe it is possible to repent or change our mind of anything unless God gives us an abundance of grace over and over until that grace overwhelms us and we want nothing but HIM! So many believers talk, talk and talk of repentance but never do they consider that an abundance of grace is the true premise for any repentance.

1. you don't know what repentance is by stating what you just stated you proved it.
2. God knows our heart the moment we trust him, He knows if we have repented, or have just mere belief, it is up to God not you or me to say who is saved or who is not.
3. Your stuck on personal sin, of which we all struggle, and not seeing what true repentance which leads to faith is. Like those I just spoke to who are legalists who think I am licentious, Your argument is based against them and their false teaching, and not against me. Because like them, it is your pride which refuses to allow you to see what I and those like me teach, you claim we believe as they do when it is obvious to the everyone with an open heart we do not.

This reveals the faulty understanding that you preach and adhere to, but you will not answer those questions even to yourself and that is being deceitful in how you handle the Scriptures and how you conduct your understanding before God through the Spirit. You are very shallow when it comes to understanding the grace of God because you refuse to be taught.

Well I just proved you wrong. I just did, and have done many times over, what you just condemned me for not doing. Do you feel good making false accusations against people? and how do you feel being shown you do not listen to what people say, because if you did, you would not make these accusations against him, only to have them thrown back at you?

You will not submit yourself to a pastor-teacher and learn the word and doctrine from those that God has raised up for the church that you are a part of.

Actually I am under 5 pastor teachers, and many other elders in my church, who not only disciple me, but I disciple many others. I am a pastor myself in my home church, and have submited myself not only to the main elders, but the main leader in my home group, who not only have the authority to rebuke me if I teach in error. But can remove me from teaching if I do not submit to their authority and just teach what I want. Again, you prove you do not know me one iota. and have again placed yourself in a position of making false accusations because you refuse to get to know someone.

You will not submit yourself to the grace of God when it comes to giving it to those that least deserve it.

And you just proved you do not even know what grace is. NO ONE DESERVES GRACE! So how could I give grace to anyone who least deserve it when no one does? Not only do you not understand what true repentance is, you do not even understand what Grace is. How can anyone take you serious of having knowledge of God and the gospel at all when you do not even understand the two most important aspects of the gospel of Christ?

You are a nominal believer with legalistic tendencies who has never been established in your heart with grace.

And here we go. As I have said probably 100 times in this forum. The licentious call me legalistic and the legalist calls me licentious. you have proved me right in so many areas with this one post. I would thank you for that, But I can;t take credit, it all goes to God.

You have some good doctrine but without grace it has no power to transform anyone or bring redemption into the midst of a troubled situation that just might involve some wicked sin. You could never minister grace in a situation like that because all you could do is tell them to repent and how can they repent without grace, how can they be transformed without the power of the Holy Spirit ministering to them.

1. All sin is wicked, here you go again proving you do not understand even this most basic points of doctrine and the gospel of Christ.
2. Judge not lest ye be judged. I can not save someone unless I show them grace first. Without Christ, they can not change.
3. Salvation is not based on repenting of each and every personal sin, it is repenting of the fact we are all sinners. and not one person, no matter how good the world may think they are, are deserving of eternal life.
4. We all struggle with sin, God tells us how to deal with it. And judgment or sever punishment is the LAST thing we are told to do.
5. Once again you prove you have utterly no clue what I believe, and are stuck, like the legalist, on what you believe and was taught, which is why in this one post alone you have made accusations which are unfounded, Unprovoked, and outright wrong, because when yuo read my posts, you read what you want to read, and see what you want to see, because your blinded by your own false belief system where you think you are right and everyone else is wrong.

I pray you repent one day and realism what true grace really is,. Undeserved merit. And what it is not, A license to continue in sin.

 

[feedm3]

Ive chosen to sit on the bench and watch instead of actually refuting or stating any arguments. Ive noticed this subject is probably never going to end in either side changing their views.

There is really the same people in groups (I am one) that go in circles over and over.

Neither side can say anything that has not already been said before. When we say things like "well it's for others to read", I think others when "others" see our names together on one thread, they prob just leave (run)lol.

The only ones that stay are the same people in each group. Then some comment from time to time that just stopped by the thread, but again it's the same names we know so well, that we dont even have to read their post to know which side they advocate.

So I am converting to Islam. NO not really lol. At least both sides know the other never runs out of breath.

Anyway I wrote this because of just reading and not commenting, I have noticed that neither side is saying we can live in sin (Not real sure what Red is saying so not including him).

Neither side has said we can live in sin, and neither side has said we are saved by works, but this is the basest for each sides arguments against the other.

My point from the beginning was one cannot live in sin. I am not saying to agree to disagree or anything like that, but maybe if we start from where we do agree in some area's like living in sin is wrong, then move to why we dont agree on other things, then the actual disagreements would be clear, and no one would be arguing what the other is NOT saying. Just a thought. Im going to shut up again now.

 

[megaman125]

Of course ya don't, The pharisees did not see it either. Nor has many a proud people who think that one way or another, it is our actions which will determine our eternal destiny, and not the grace of God. Whether your actions before your saved by doing works like baptism or whatever, or you actions after you supposedly have been saved which will keep you saved, or cause you to lose it. it is all of works, and all in trying to earn a gift God said he is freely offering to us. so until you come to this view, I would not expect you to see it. Because it has been the lie satan has done since cain and abel. and so many millions of people us the same argument you use.

You continue to make assumptions about those that reject the once saved always saved doctrine, and continue to try and pass those assumptions off as fact. Not once have I claimed that we aren't saved by the grace of God. Perhaps if your doctrine didn't focus on putting words in other people's mouths to be successful, you'd see better fruit and less hostility on a Christian forum.

Once saved always saved doctrine is true because it is based solely on the promises of God, the death of Christ, and the righteousness of God given to us based on faith in Christ, If God takes back what he said was freely given, then God is a liar. and a thief. is that the God you worship and place your trust in?

Once again, you make assumptions about those on the opposite side, and try to pass off those assumptions as true. No where did I claim that God is constantly giving and taking back one's salvation (and I haven't read all the posts, but I'm pretty sure no one is claiming that).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[/b][/color]

You continue to make assumptions about those that reject the once saved always saved doctrine, and continue to try and pass those assumptions off as fact. Not once have I claimed that we aren't saved by the grace of God. Perhaps if your doctrine didn't focus on putting words in other people's mouths to be successful, you'd see better fruit and less hostility on a Christian forum.

forgive me if I look at reality of what your saying and not at what you claim to not do.

fact. anyone who teaches one can lose eternal life is teaching a gospel of works, and rejecting grace.
fact. anyone who does not believe in OSAS is teaching a gospel of works,
fact. anyone who teaches that once a person is born again, Is saved by the blood of Christ, is Given eternal life, and at any time they can lose that gift of salvation is teaching that someone must merit that salvation in order to keep it. Now what it is that one claimes we must do, whether from the extreme legalist to many works, To the least of the legalist with but a few works, Still teaches a gospel of works. This my friend is what you are teaching, You can deny it all you want, I woul dnot call a femal a male, no matter how hard and adament she tried to tell me she was a male and not a female. I will call a works based gospel what it is, no matter how many times the person denys he is teaching a gospel of works, and denying grace.

Once again, you make assumptions about those on the opposite side, and try to pass off those assumptions as true. No where did I claim that God is constantly giving and taking back one's salvation (and I haven't read all the posts, but I'm pretty sure no one is claiming that).

You don;t have to say God keeps taking it back. all you have to do is say he can take it back at any times based on what a person does or does not do, and your teaching a works based gospel. for our salvation is merited on whatever you claim a person has to do, or not do, in order to keep the gift God said he gave, sealed with the spirit, who is our guarantee, and is eternal in nature.

I understand you do not like what I say, just like red does not like what I say, and denys he is teaching licentiousness. But what you say you do not teach, and what you actually teach do not agree with each other, I can just explain why i do not see what you see. .