Eternal Security - If saved, always saved! Part 1. - By David Stewart

[eternally-gratefull]

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Yeah it does matter, because saying we're supposed to go out and intentionally drink poison and get bitten by snakes is just twisting the scripture into something it's not.

You still do not get it. Many who are children of God died doing just this. They were not saved, nor do they heal people, when is the last time you went out and healed someone by laying your hands on them? The point is. It is not true what Jesus was supposed to have said, I find it amazing you keep running from that fact.

Yes, I do believe that passage, just not in the false sense that you're putting it (again, it wasn't a commandment to go out and drink poison, but you keep pretending that it is). And if you want examples of Mark 16:17-18 in action, try reading the book of acts. You have many occassions where there was speaking in tongues, laying hands on the sick and them getting healed, and Paul was bitten by a snake.

Did Jesus say these things would be signs of ALL WHO BELIEVE, or did he not? No where in that passage does it say these signs will accompany some of them. or that only a few of these signs will be present. to say this is to twist the wording of the passage.

Acts? what does that have to do with it? they had been doing those signs since before Jesus made those comments. They were nothing new. Jesus said ALL WOULD DO IT. Including you and me and everyone else who claims to believe in Christ.

Again, your twisting what the passage says, I never commanded you to do it. I asked you to put your money where your mouth is, and prove it is scripture. If Jesus said ALL who believe will do those things, then you should not be afraid to do them, unless you really do not believe, or your faiht in that passage is not as sure as you claim it is.

Your "fact" is dependant on making false assumptions and putting words in other peoples' mouths.

Nope. I am not putting words in anyones mouths. You state one can lose salvation. thus you MUST state there must be something they have to do to merit keeping it. Those are just facts. Not my own view.

Hey look, just like I said, another assumption, and then you try to pass it off as "proof positive." Get over yourself.

lol, I said if you believe it. Whats wrong you afraid to admit you believe it or not? Are washed by the baptism of men in water, or spiritual baptism by God himself apart from water, no water being involved at all?

 

[miami22]

ChosenbyHim you are idiot. you can lose salvation.

 

[megaman125]

You still do not get it. Many who are children of God died doing just this. They were not saved, nor do they heal people, when is the last time you went out and healed someone by laying your hands on them? The point is. It is not true what Jesus was supposed to have said, I find it amazing you keep running from that fact.

I'm not running, you're the one twisting the scripture saying that I should go drink poison right now to prove the passage. That is the same twisting of scripture that Satan tried on Jesus when Satan told him to throw himself off a cliff. Again, it's not a commandment to go out and drink poison, but you keep talking as if it is.

Did Jesus say these things would be signs of ALL WHO BELIEVE, or did he not? No where in that passage does it say these signs will accompany some of them. or that only a few of these signs will be present. to say this is to twist the wording of the passage.

Acts? what does that have to do with it? they had been doing those signs since before Jesus made those comments. They were nothing new. Jesus said ALL WOULD DO IT. Including you and me and everyone else who claims to believe in Christ.

You don't know what Acts has to do with it? I already explained what Acts has to do with it, or do you deny those things too? If you don't believe the Bible, then you have no business teaching it.

Again, your twisting what the passage says, I never commanded you to do it. I asked you to put your money where your mouth is, and prove it is scripture. If Jesus said ALL who believe will do those things, then you should not be afraid to do them, unless you really do not believe, or your faiht in that passage is not as sure as you claim it is.

I'm not going to rush out and drink poison just because you're twisting scripture the way Satan does.

lol, I said if you believe it. Whats wrong you afraid to admit you believe it or not? Are washed by the baptism of men in water, or spiritual baptism by God himself apart from water, no water being involved at all?

Now you're blatently lying. You did NOT say "if I believe it" Here is what you said:

ps, I bet you believe one must do the work of being water baptized to don't ya? Proof positive.

You said "I bet you believe..." That is an assumption. Then you assumed your assumption was true by adding the words "proof positive."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm not running, you're the one twisting the scripture saying that I should go drink poison right now to prove the passage. That is the same twisting of scripture that Satan tried on Jesus when Satan told him to throw himself off a cliff. Again, it's not a commandment to go out and drink poison, but you keep talking as if it is.

1. I am not twisting scripture. I am asking you to prove it is real. Evidently you do not trust it.
2. You completely ignore what the passage says, then say I am twisting.
3. Get off the fact I am asking you to do it. Can you at least admit many who are children of God did not and are not showing these signs, even Though jesus said they would. Your skipping over 90 % of what I said, I must ask myself (as does anyone who reads this) why!!

You don't know what Acts has to do with it? I already explained what Acts has to do with it, or do you deny those things too? If you don't believe the Bible, then you have no business teaching it.

Here you go twisting again. I admited acts showed that SOME people had these signs, Yet this is not what Jesus said is it? Your stuck on acts. what about the rest of the NT, what about the almost 2000 years since then, and what about today. Again jesus did not say they may or may not have them, or only part time. he said THOSE WHO BELIEVE WILL HAVE THESE SIGNS. Do you believe? do you have those signs??

I'm not going to rush out and drink poison just because you're twisting scripture the way Satan does.

fine, then don't tell me it is scripture. Especially since I already proved many have not had those signs, even though Jesus said they would. And stop saying I am twisting scripture. I did not command you to do nothing, nor say jesus commanded you to. I asked you to put your money where your mouth is.

[/quote]Now you're blatently lying. You did NOT say "if I believe it" Here is what you said:



You said "I bet you believe..." That is an assumption. Then you assumed your assumption was true by adding the words "proof positive."[/quote]

So your not going to admit whether you believe it or not? If you don;t believe it, then I am a liar and I will admit my mistake, if you do. You proved my point. Why are you afraid to admit it? maybe because you know you would prove me right?? Which is it??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ChosenbyHim you are idiot. you can lose salvation.

1. It is not nice to call someone an idiot, even if you disagree.
2. If you can lose salvation. then eternal life is not eternal but conditional, on whatever "condition" you think one has to fulfill in order to earn the right to recieve salvationl thus you preach a gospel of works, and not grace through faith, which is a false gospel, not from God. so next time you want to call someone a name, look in the mirror, and call yourself that name!

 

[megaman125]

1. I am not twisting scripture. I am asking you to prove it is real. Evidently you do not trust it.

You're telling me to go out and drink poison, that is twisting scripture, whether you want to admit it or not.

2. You completely ignore what the passage says, then say I am twisting.
3. Get off the fact I am asking you to do it. Can you at least admit many who are children of God did not and are not showing these signs, even Though jesus said they would. Your skipping over 90 % of what I said, I must ask myself (as does anyone who reads this) why!!

Jesus didn't tell us to go out and intentionally drink poison, but that's what you're telling me to do, hence you're twisting scripture.

Here you go twisting again. I admited acts showed that SOME people had these signs, Yet this is not what Jesus said is it? Your stuck on acts. what about the rest of the NT, what about the almost 2000 years since then, and what about today. Again jesus did not say they may or may not have them, or only part time. he said THOSE WHO BELIEVE WILL HAVE THESE SIGNS. Do you believe? do you have those signs??

Yes, I do believe. I have cast out demons, and had one cast out of me in the past. I do not need to run out and drink poison to satisfy your demands and twisting of scripture. And I don't need to prove anything, because it's already been proven.

And he took him to Jerusalem and set him on the pinnacle of the temple and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here, for it is written, “‘He will command his angels concerning you, to guard you,’ and “‘On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.’” And Jesus answered him, “It is said, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”
Luke 4:9-13

You're doing the same thing here, except instead of telling me to throw myself off of a cliff, you're telling me to intentionally drink poison. You're doing to me the exact same thing Satan did to Jesus in Luke 4. Jesus didn't fall for that nonsense, and neither will I.

So your not going to admit whether you believe it or not? If you don;t believe it, then I am a liar and I will admit my mistake, if you do. You proved my point. Why are you afraid to admit it? maybe because you know you would prove me right?? Which is it??

Or perhaps I don't care to answer your question about baptism, because my answer wouldn't matter to you, since you would just twist it to fit your false assumptions regardless of what I say.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

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You're telling me to go out and drink poison, that is twisting scripture, whether you want to admit it or not.

blah blah blah,, there is no talking or reasoning with you.

Jesus didn't tell us to go out and intentionally drink poison, but that's what you're telling me to do, hence you're twisting scripture.

No, Jesus said whoever did it would not die, yet many have died doing this. so either jesus lied. or this is not scripture. a part you refuse to see.

Yes, I do believe. I have cast out demons, and had one cast out of me in the past. I do not need to run out and drink poison to satisfy your demands and twisting of scripture. And I don't need to prove anything, because it's already been proven.

tell that to all the christians who died because they were poisoned. or to all the sick people who were not healed. or to all the children of God who died by being bitten by a poisonous snake.

And he took him to Jerusalem and set him on the pinnacle of the temple and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here, for it is written, “‘He will command his angels concerning you, to guard you,’ and “‘On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.’” And Jesus answered him, “It is said, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”
Luke 4:9-13

You're doing the same thing here, except instead of telling me to throw myself off of a cliff, you're telling me to intentionally drink poison. You're doing to me the exact same thing Satan did to Jesus in Luke 4. Jesus didn't fall for that nonsense, and neither will I.

No I am putting you to the test, all the proof that it is not scripture, you demand it is, so I am asking you to prove it. i am not testing God. I KNOW IT IS NOT SCRIPTURE.

Or perhaps I don't care to answer your question about baptism, because my answer wouldn't matter to you, since you would just twist it to fit your false assumptions regardless of what I say.

like I said, there is no talking or reasoning with you. Your silence speaks louder than words, you don't have to answer, i already know it. and you proved me right. because if you did not believe in water baptismal regeneration, but only believed in spirit regeneration as titus 3; 5 tells us, then you would easily answer.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Hello Eternally-gratefull,

thank you so much brother for defending me. I sometimes barely have a chance to log on here and respond to the posts. So I appreciate that.

It is unfortunate that some people on here have to resort to name calling but that just shows their immaturity and also shows their inability to handle the truth of Holy Scripture.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

ChosenbyHim you are idiot. you can lose salvation.

Well kid, it is unfortunate that you think that way about me. But I must correct you, no I cannot lose my salvation. No Christian in this dispensation can lose their salvation. Have you even read what I posted? Have you read the article by David Stewart which I shared on Eternal Security?

Most likely you have not. So, until you study the issue out and until you see what the King James Bible has to say about the issue being discussed on this thread, then just do not say anything about it, because you will only be showing your own ignorance in regard to this discussion on eternal security.

Again, if you want to believe the lie that you can "supposedly" lose your salvation, than you stay in your error and faulty belief. But don't you dare try to get other Christians to believe that same lie that they can lose their salvation. Because the truth of the matter is that no Christian can lose their salvation. Salvation is of God. It is not of us. Therefore a Christian cannot lose his or her salvation.

 

[feedm3]

ChosenbyHim you are idiot. you can lose salvation.

Wow, talking that way to people you must not be very afraid of losing it.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Wow, talking that way to people you must not be very afraid of losing it.

LOL! That's a good one Feedm3, yeah it's funny how the people who believe they can lose it, will get rather heated and angry whenever they hear someone preach on Eternal Security. And I wonder why?

Most likely they are depending on their works to save them, but like you said, he must not be afraid of losing his, given the way he talks to other people.

 

[feedm3]

I agree with what he said, I dont believe we can escape doing our duty as Christians and still go to heaven - Luke 17:10, Ecc 12:13.

Though what is said to you was uncalled for, and makes me wonder if he believes hes immune to what he believes.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

I agree with what he said, I dont believe we can escape doing our duty as Christians and still go to heaven - Luke 17:10, Ecc 12:13.

Though what is said to you was uncalled for, and makes me wonder if he believes hes immune to what he believes.

Well, even though you and I disagree on this issue. At least you are more respectful. Now I did read those two Scriptures which you posted, however both of those Scriptures are doctrinally found in the Old Testament. We as Christians in this Church Age certainly have a duty to serve God the Father and obey Him. But one thing you must remember is that keeping the commandments cannot get us into heaven. For if we could keep the commandments, then Jesus Christ would have never had to come down to this earth and shed His holy blood for us. You see, only Jesus could keep all the commandments of God. That is why He is the only way whereby we can be saved and enter into Heaven. And whether or not a Christian keeps the commandments will not determine whether he will go to Heaven or not, since his sins were already judged at Calvary. What determines if we go to Heaven or not is based on what we do with the Lord Jesus Christ, God's only begotten Son. Once we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, then we are baptized into His body by the Holy Ghost and we are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. (See Ephesians 4:30)

Also, once we get saved, our destination is predestined and it is fixed. Therefore the Christian is eternally secure and will never lose his salvation. The Christian can lose many other things: his joy, testimony, rewards, and even his millennial inheritance, but he can never lose his salvation since salvation is a gift and since salvation is of God and not of us.

 

[megaman125]

blah blah blah,, there is no talking or reasoning with you.

And this is coming from the guy who's done nothing but make false assumptions of me, put words in my mouth, and tell me to go drink poison.

No, Jesus said whoever did it would not die, yet many have died doing this. so either jesus lied. or this is not scripture. a part you refuse to see.

You're the one refusing to see anything else.

No I am putting you to the test, all the proof that it is not scripture, you demand it is, so I am asking you to prove it. i am not testing God. I KNOW IT IS NOT SCRIPTURE.

The book of Acts proves it, but of course you brush that aside. You don't get to "put me to the test" or any such nonsense. Jesus never commanded that we go out and drink poison, but yet, here you are, a professing Christian, demanding that another Christian go and drink poison.

like I said, there is no talking or reasoning with you. Your silence speaks louder than words, you don't have to answer, i already know it. and you proved me right. because if you did not believe in water baptismal regeneration, but only believed in spirit regeneration as titus 3; 5 tells us, then you would easily answer.

I already told you why I didn't answer. You can't carry on a civil discussion with the topics we already have. I already said I wasn't going to get into making long posts. You're free to keep boasting and puffing your self up by saying you're right becuase you assume you are, but that won't make it true. You've only gone to prove my point, which is that you don't care what answer I provided for your baptism question, you were only going to ignore it and carry on with your own assumptions and accusations, because that's what you just did.

 

[feedm3]

Well, even though you and I disagree on this issue. At least you are more respectful. Now I did read those two Scriptures which you posted, however both of those Scriptures are doctrinally found in the Old Testament. We as Christians in this Church Age certainly have a duty to serve God the Father and obey Him. But one thing you must remember is that keeping the commandments cannot get us into heaven. For if we could keep the commandments, then Jesus Christ would have never had to come down to this earth and shed His holy blood for us. You see, only Jesus could keep all the commandments of God. That is why He is the only way whereby we can be saved and enter into Heaven. And whether or not a Christian keeps the commandments will not determine whether he will go to Heaven or not, since his sins were already judged at Calvary. What determines if we go to Heaven or not is based on what we do with the Lord Jesus Christ, God's only begotten Son. Once we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, then we are baptized into His body by the Holy Ghost and we are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. (See Ephesians 4:30)

Well Ecc is OT, yet still it is speaking of the whole duty of man, not man only under the OT.

Luke 17:10, some may clump together as OT, yet everything Jesus spoke is binding, (unless directly spoken to those under the law, of things pertaining to the law) sense his words is what we will be judged by - Jn 12:48.

It makes no sense to say keeping his commands does not get us to heaven. Then (not sure if you say this or not) say if we dont keep them we were never saved.

Jesus said "if ye love me keep my commands", He was not telling us to do the impossible.

Of course, God granted us repentance, because we will never be flawless. Yet those who refuse to repent can not expect forgiveness.

If there was no way of losing salvation, then their would be no such thing as Christ becoming of no effect to Christians, or no such thing as "receiving God's grace in vain" - I Cor 6:1

Heb 10:26 applies to Christians, not those who were "almost" Christians, or those who returned to the law of MOses only.

But it says "if we sin willfully" there remains no more sacrifice for sins. This is speaking of unrepentant sins.

I know the context of chapter 10, it is a comparison of Christians and those under the law, and says of the Christians who remain in sin, that they are worthy of a more sorer punishment.

Also, Jesus taught of the unfaithful servant in Luke 12:40-f. The lesson tells us this servant did not think his Lord was returning soon, so in the meantime he decided to live in sin, when his Lord returned, he was appointed the same punishment as the unbelievers. This lesson destroys the oSAS doctrine, we cant assume he was never saved, he is called a "servant", adn we cant assume the unbeleivers punishemnt is heaven, therefore the only logical explanation is that this servant, LOST a servants reward.

Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers

Nowhere does the Bible teach we cannot reject salvation after we have chosen it. It is not God giving and taking, he gave it once. It is us who take and choose to throw it back in face through choosing the lusts of bodies over him - this is "doing despite unto the Spirit of grace, because Grace does not say we can continue in sin - Rom 6:3, Heb 10:27

Also, once we get saved, our destination is predestined and it is fixed.

no passage exists, saying this, it based solely on mans doctrines.

Therefore the Christian is eternally secure and will never lose his salvation. The Christian can lose many other things: his joy, testimony, rewards, and even his millennial inheritance, but he can never lose his salvation since salvation is a gift and since salvation is of God and not of us.

I can give you a gift, you can take, and if you choose to you can throw it in the trash and not use it. You can receive it "in vain".

Vain would mean pointless, ineffective, I Cor 6:2 as workers together with him we beeseech you that ye receive not the grace of God IN VAIN

Paul wrote this to the church, just as he did to the Gal church. All these are warnings for ALL Christians.

When the prodigal son left his father for the world, the Bible says while he was in the world he was "Dead", upon his retrun (repentance) he was then and ONLY then "alive".

Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry

I know "he was still a son, he never stopped being a son" - an argument that has absolute nothing to do with the lesson of this story. The fact is, leave the Father for the world and become "dead" or repent and return and be alive. Their is no in-between.

The Bible does not teach since it's a gift we can never reject it. It does show in many passages that the opposite is true, and we and can reject it. Yet the only way to accept what your saying is to have to explain away all these passages to mean something other than what the say. I will not do that.

Obedience is NOT a work, it is a duty. Anyone who thinks obeying makes them deserving has been fooled, as Christ said, when ye have done ALL that is commanded, were are still unprofitable servants. So how woudl that be deserving. That is a straw man argument that EG is using trying to defeat mega-man, I hope you will not do the same.

IF you have a valid argument, then there's no need for the straw man of works salvation. Works are deeds, not duties.

No "good deed" can save us. NOT sinning is NOT a work. It's not a "good deed" to repent, it an obedient answer to God's commands, and the least we should do for our own benefit.

Heb 5:9 and being made perfect he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

implication, he is not the author of salvation unto all them that disobey him.

Those who do, are rejecting grace, and their Christian duty.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Well Ecc is OT, yet still it is speaking of the whole duty of man, not man only under the OT.

Well, yeah you could say that. But still where did it say in that verse Scripture that that was the requirement for salvation? You see Feedm3, you have to be careful about taking Bible Doctrine from the book of Ecclesiastes and applying it to a New Testament Christian.

Luke 17:10, some may clump together as OT, yet everything Jesus spoke is binding, (unless directly spoken to those under the law, of things pertaining to the law) sense his words is what we will be judged by - Jn 12:48.

Well, yes we will have our works judged by our Lord Jesus Christ. But again, we will have our works judged. Not our sins. The Judgment Seat of Christ is where every Christian will appear to receive his or her rewards for his or her service to the Lord after they got saved. The Judgement Seat of Christ is not to determine whether or not we are going to heaven, it is to determine what rewards will receive from the Lord.

It makes no sense to say keeping his commands does not get us to heaven. Then (not sure if you say this or not) say if we dont keep them we were never saved.

Well, that is your private interpretation. When the Philippian Jailer asked Paul what he needed to do to be saved, how did the Apostle Paul and Silas rely? Last time I checked, they certainly did not say keep the commandments. This is what Paul and Silas said:

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. - Acts 16:31 (KJB)

We should do our best to keep the commandments which the Lord gives us. In fact, here is what Paul gives the New Testament Christians as far as keeping the commandments of God:


Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. - Romans 13:8-10 (KJB)

Jesus said "if ye love me keep my commands", He was not telling us to do the impossible.

Well, that is the thing feedm3, if we abide in Christ we will bear much fruit. Let me ask you a question, ever since you got saved, have you sinned? Have you lied? Have you lusted after a woman in your heart? Have you had an impure and a bad thought within the last week? Now, be honest. I know I have had some bad thoughts within the last week. I know that I have committed a sin within this last month. Now does that mean I am lost now? No, I am still saved. You see, if every Christian had to keep the commandments in order to keep their salvation, then every single one of us would have already lost it. Since there are times when we will sin. One time I heard a preacher say that we are only 2/3 saved. Our spirit is quickened, our soul is redeemed, but our flesh is still corrupted and still has the sinful nature. That is why we are still capable of committing the sins which the lost world commits.

Of course, God granted us repentance, because we will never be flawless. Yet those who refuse to repent can not expect forgiveness.

Well, depends on who you are talking about. Are you talking about Christians or are you talking about lost, Christ rejecting, hell bound sinners?

If you're a Christian, then you have been forgiven of all your trespasses.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; - Colossians 2:13

If there was no way of losing salvation, then their would be no such thing as Christ becoming of no effect to Christians, or no such thing as "receiving God's grace in vain" - I Cor 6:1

Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? - 1 Corinthians 6:1 (KJB)

How is this Scripture talking about receiving God's grace in vain?

Again, you are privately interpreting the Scriptures. Now, let me give you the Scripture which I believe you are quoting from:

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. - Galatians 5:2-4

That Scripture actually refutes your position and your argument. That Scripture is talking about Christians trying to keep the law. You see, none of us can keep the whole law. If you are justified by keeping the law and the ten commandments, then you have fallen from grace.

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. - James 2:10

Heb 10:26 applies to Christians, not those who were "almost" Christians, or those who returned to the law of MOses only.

No, Hebrews 10:26 does not apply to Christians. It is applies to the Hebrews in the time of Jacobs Trouble also known as the 7 year tribulation. Hebrews is not written to Christians, it is written to the Hebrews.

But it says "if we sin willfully" there remains no more sacrifice for sins. This is speaking of unrepentant sins.

Let me ask you though Feedm3, have you sinned willfully after the point you got saved? I know I have. In fact, I have sinned willfully a few times after I have gotten saved, and if you are honest with yourself than you will admit that you have sinned willfully as well after you got saved. So, if a Christian can lose his salvation, then how does he get it back?

How many times can a Christian lose his salvation? Does he lose it once? Twice? Three times? Is there a cut off point to where if a Christian loses his salvation four times that he cannot be re saved again? I mean, at what point does a Christian finally lose his salvation for good to where he can no longer get it back?

Are you starting to see the absurd silliness of this position of someone losing their salvation after they have been saved and born again?

I hope you are Feedm3. This false teaching a Christian losing their salvation most likely came from the Catholic church. Since the catholic church has always been know for its desire to control its people and since the catholic church has always attempted to keep people in bondage to their dead religion.

I know the context of chapter 10, it is a comparison of Christians and those under the law, and says of the Christians who remain in sin, that they are worthy of a more sorer punishment.

First of all, if a Christian remains in sin, there is a good chance he is a false convert and not really a Christian at all. He may be a professing Christian, but probably not a true Christian. If he is a true Christian, then he will be chastised and disciplined.

Also, Jesus taught of the unfaithful servant in Luke 12:40-f. The lesson tells us this servant did not think his Lord was returning soon, so in the meantime he decided to live in sin, when his Lord returned, he was appointed the same punishment as the unbelievers. This lesson destroys the oSAS doctrine, we cant assume he was never saved, he is called a "servant", adn we cant assume the unbeleivers punishemnt is heaven, therefore the only logical explanation is that this servant, LOST a servants reward.

No, actually that servant had to be a type of person who never was saved to begin with. Because where does that servant end up? He ends up in hell, which means he was never saved. Now, that is if that is applying to Christians. No Christian is going to end up in hell. And no Christian is going to end up at the Great White Throne Judgment. All Christians will appear at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Let's see what Scripture says in regard to a Christian suffering loss at the Judgment Seat of Christ:

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. - 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (KJB)

As you can save although the Christian suffers lost, that Christian is still saved.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers

Nowhere does the Bible teach we cannot reject salvation after we have chosen it. It is not God giving and taking, he gave it once. It is us who take and choose to throw it back in face through choosing the lusts of bodies over him - this is "doing despite unto the Spirit of grace, because Grace does not say we can continue in sin - Rom 6:3, Heb 10:27

Luke 12:45 is not referring to a Christian living in sin. It is referring to a man who had the notion and opportunity to come to Christ and accept Him, but chose to put salvation off since he thought in his heart that the Lord would delay His coming.

Again, the man is never saved, he never gets converted. Think about Matthew 7:21-23

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. - Matthew 7:21-23 (KJB)


These people apparently thought they were saved.

Notice that the Lord did not say to these people that he once knew them but then he kind of forgot about them. Is that what the Lord said? NO. Of course not! Our Lord Jesus Christ said, I NEVER knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. The Lord never knew them. They were never saved. They were never His to begin with.

no passage exists, saying this, it based solely on mans doctrines.

No passage exists saying what?

I can give you a gift, you can take, and if you choose to you can throw it in the trash and not use it. You can receive it "in vain".

Okay, how does that apply to a person actually receiving the gift of Salvation though. If a person gets saved, they are sealed unto the day of redemption according to Ephesians 4:30. Salvation is not of us, it is of God.

Vain would mean pointless, ineffective, I Cor 6:2 as workers together with him we beeseech you that ye receive not the grace of God IN VAIN

????? 1 Cor 6:2 ?????

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? - 1 Corinthians 6:2 (KJB)

Paul wrote this to the church, just as he did to the Gal church. All these are warnings for ALL Christians.

When the prodigal son left his father for the world, the Bible says while he was in the world he was "Dead", upon his retrun (repentance) he was then and ONLY then "alive".

Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry

Okay, but was the prodigal son a Christian? Not necessarily. The prodigal son was a Jew. After all, there were no Christians under the Old Testament. I am not saying this parable cannot be applied to Christians today, but you really can't use this as an argument against a Christian's eternal security as there were no Christians in the Old Testament. The first time "Christian" appears in the King James Bible is in Acts 11:26.

I know "he was still a son, he never stopped being a son" - an argument that has absolute nothing to do with the lesson of this story. The fact is, leave the Father for the world and become "dead" or repent and return and be alive. Their is no in-between.

The Bible does not teach since it's a gift we can never reject it. It does show in many passages that the opposite is true, and we and can reject it. Yet the only way to accept what your saying is to have to explain away all these passages to mean something other than what the say. I will not do that.

No, that is not what is being done here. What is being done here is showing you what the Scriptures say in regard to the eternal salvation of a Christian in the New Testament and in this dispensation known as the Church Age. Trust me, there is no twisting of Scripture here. It is simply rightly diving the Bible into its proper dispensations and divisions. You cannot apply Hebrews 6 or Hebrews 10:26 to a Christian in trying to prove to them that they can lose their salvation. It just does not line up nor does it add up. You cannot mesh them together, and neither can you mesh Hebrews 10:26 and Ephesians 4:30 together. You have to rightly divide the Bible into its proper dispensations.

Obedience is NOT a work, it is a duty. Anyone who thinks obeying makes them deserving has been fooled, as Christ said, when ye have done ALL that is commanded, were are still unprofitable servants. So how woudl that be deserving. That is a straw man argument that EG is using trying to defeat mega-man, I hope you will not do the same.

IF you have a valid argument, then there's no need for the straw man of works salvation. Works are deeds, not duties.

No "good deed" can save us. NOT sinning is NOT a work. It's not a "good deed" to repent, it an obedient answer to God's commands, and the least we should do for our own benefit.

Heb 5:9 and being made perfect he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

implication, he is not the author of salvation unto all them that disobey him.

Those who do, are rejecting grace, and their Christian duty.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I am just telling you what the Bible says Feedm3, you cannot prove from the Pauline Epistles that a Christian can lose his salvation. Now, you can prove from Hebrews that salvation can be lost, but again, the book of Hebrews is not even written to Christians. It is written to the Hebrews. Now, of course a lot of Scripture in Hebrews could be applied to the Church Age for instruction in righteousness, but again, the name of the book is Hebrews for a reason. That is why when it comes to the doctrine of eternal salvation for the Christian in the church age, we need to mainly be getting our doctrine from the Pauline Epistles (Romans through Philemon). Also, notice that Pauls' name is the very first word in each of the Pauline Epistles. Of course it is in the King James Bible.

You have got to understand that a Christian will never lose his salvation in the church age. That is since he is sealed unto the day of redemption. And last time I checked if a person gets saved, then he basically obeyed the Gospel.

Be careful about getting most of your doctrine from Ecclesiastes or Hebrews for a Gentile Believer in the Church Age. Be very careful about that. A lot of times when a Christian is trying to prove to another Christian that they can lose their salvation, they will usually always go to the book of James, Hebrews or even Matthew to prove their argument. What is interesting though is that they will never mention the book of Ephesians. The Apostle Paul said that we are sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit. So, if we are sealed, then we are sealed and secure. It is that simple. No Christian can lose his salvation in this dispensation. This is the dispensation of grace. We are saved by grace through faith only and not by works. Lest any man should boast.

 

[feedm3]

Luke 12:45 is not referring to a Christian living in sin. It is referring to a man who had the notion and opportunity to come to Christ and accept Him, but chose to put salvation off since he thought in his heart that the Lord would delay His coming.

So then your saying he was a "servant of his Lord" before he was a servant? If had not come to the Lord, and was only an opportunity, why was His Lord (His ruler) called so?

Again you are taking words to describe this and twisting them to put a different view, yet the words simply do not fit, so again why would I assume a servant was not really a servant?

Before his Lord left was he a servant?

Again, the man is never saved, he never gets converted. Think about Matthew 7:21-23

Yes, and that is not found anywhere in the passages, it is simply an answer, yet not valid according to the words and defintions, combined with common sense understanding that if he was a servan who lived in sin while his Lord was away, does not mean he was never a servant.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Great passages that teach exactly the oppisite of what you are teaching. This shows that we MUST do the will of God. So what is the will of God?

Hint - I Thess 4:1-f, repentance of sin. Your saying a Christian does not have to repent of sin to get to heaven, thus saying he does not have to do the will of God, while knowing and citing passages that prove that wrong.

Notice that the Lord did not say to these people that he once knew them but then he kind of forgot about them. Is that what the Lord said? NO. Of course not! Our Lord Jesus Christ said, I NEVER knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. The Lord never knew them. They were never saved. They were never His to begin with.

Maybe so. and? would you say because the Lord never knew them, that means we can live in sin and go to heaven? What would have caused the Lord never to them? Sin. So if sin will cause this, how can a Christian live in sin?

So again repetnacne (obedience) must accompy faith. But you say were not saved by obedience (works as you define) yet if we do not obey then the Lord never knew us?

So wheater you say those who do not obey God were never saved, or Lose their salvation does not matter, the point is we MUST obey to get to heaven.

If not then what are you saying?

No passage exists saying what?

Read the the quote above where I said this, and theirs your answer, no need in repeating things when their already written.

Okay, how does that apply to a person actually receiving the gift of Salvation though. If a person gets saved, they are sealed unto the day of redemption according to Ephesians 4:30. Salvation is not of us, it is of God.

Of course were sealed. Why would anyone want to be saved if it were possible for someone to pull you away from God. We are sealed. Yet that does not mean YOU cant walk away from the gift.

If you do that then whose fault would that be? Yours or God's?

If I own a bank vault, and the money is inside sealed, then it is sealed from anyone taking it. yet if I choose to leave it open, then I cant blame the vault maker.





????? 1 Cor 6:2 ?????

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? - 1 Corinthians 6:2 (KJB)

So sorry I meant II Cor 6:1

1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain

Written to Christians, warning them of what you say is not possible. I am sure you can find an asnwer that somehow means something else, but remember, jsut because we can find an answer does not make it right. When those answers mean we have to stop intrepreting scriptures at face value, then thats a red flag.

Okay, but was the prodigal son a Christian? Not necessarily. The prodigal son was a Jew. After all, there were no Christians under the Old Testament. I am not saying this parable cannot be applied to Christians today, but you really can't use this as an argument against a Christian's eternal security as there were no Christians in the Old Testament. The first time "Christian" appears in the King James Bible is in Acts 11:26.

This reasoning is not valid. If you look at what your impliying here, I would be careful. Your saying under the OT men were not allowed to live in sin, and be saved.

But under the NT since Christ died, we can now live as the prodigal son without any eternal consequences.

Second, you can use this argument because this is directly applicable to God's people, Jews or Christians.

By your reasoning, the gospels do not apply to us. To be consistent with what your saying, then anything I find in the gospels, is not applicable to me, now.

Jesus said the words he speaks the same shall judge us in the last day - Jn 12:48

So why would we be judged by words that do not apply to us? Sorry but your understanding of where the words of Christ hold in the New covenant seems to need a bit more study.

In fact none of the gospels are written to Christians. Mainly the Jews. So Jn 3:16 also would not apply, or any of the passages you all use to support oSAS from the gospels, since they were not directly said to Christians.

No, that is not what is being done here. What is being done here is showing you what the Scriptures say in regard to the eternal salvation of a Christian in the New Testament and in this dispensation known as the Church Age.

For the sake of arguemnt, if you wish, we can ONLY speak of NT church passages, and speak nothing of the gospels, becaue the fact is, there are volumes of passages in the NT, that teach us OSAS is false. So if you wish we can proceed in that manner.

You cannot apply Hebrews 6 or Hebrews 10:26 to a Christian in trying to prove to them that they can lose their salvation. It just does not line up nor does it add up. You cannot mesh them together, and neither can you mesh Hebrews 10:26 and Ephesians 4:30 together. You have to rightly divide the Bible into its proper dispensations.

I dont remember mentioning Heb 6. Nevertheless, your right, Heb 10:26 and Eph 4:30 must harmonize.

So we have two choices.

A proper method of interpretation is to start with the one which meaning is plain, and then use that to interprete what is not so as clear. so lets break them down.

The passages:
26 For if we sin wilfully <-----"we" means self inclusive, so Paul is obivously a Christan, so are they. Sin willfully". Not "return to the law willfully" but "sin" in general. So even in this context, Paul is showing from verse 25 that "forsaking the assembling" of the Christians is "willful sin".

26 "after that we have received the knowledge of the truth"<--- This again shows who this is pertianing to. Those who aleready recieved the knowlege of the truth. Same audiance in Chapter 6 in which Paul is telling them they should have already been teachers, or chapter 5 I mean. Again showing who this appies to.

26 "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" Some say this means animal sacrifice. Lol. There is ONLY one sacrifice for sins, and it is Christs'.

Each of the portions of this one verse is so clear and easy to understand, that a child can read it once and understand what is being said.

Now keeping the BIble in harmony, this also explains what is meant in Gal 5 when Paul said concernign those who "fall from grace" that "christ is become of no effect to you".

This how that happens, willful unrepentant sin, which cause the blood of Christ NOT to cleanse you.

Now Eph 4:30:
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption

A great passage that in no way condraticts the simple meaning in Heb 10. Where in this passage does it say or imply that if we choose to walk away from God, we are still sealed?

This passage is actually telling you with the next passage to repent. it's message, "Greive not hte HS"

How? By sinning.

Why? because he has sealed us

How again? By making us the children of God. We are sealed. therefore, no one, not Satan, not you cousin, not anyone can MAKE you sin and pull you away from God.

So keeping this in harmony with the remote context, here is the message:

To stay sealed means we are:
Walking in the light -

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth(is cleansing - ongoing)us from all sin

Implication:
If we are not walking in the light anymore because we chose sin, then again the blood of Christ is not cleansing us, just as were told in Gal 5, and in Heb 10, he has become of no effect.

We are keeping his commands: - Jn 14:15, the only way to show we love him.

We are abstianing from sin becaue it is the will of God - I Thess 4:1-3


Now if we are doing the will of God, who can force us not to? who can pull you away from God?
No one, EXCEPT YOURSELF BY CHOOSING TO WALK AWAY AND RECEIVE HIS GRACE IN VAIN, BY LIVING IN SIN, AND THAT IS BIBLICAL SEEING THE PASSAGES I AHVE POSTED, AND NONE ARE HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

So we are sealed as long as were in teh light. If you walk away from that light and choose darkness, you no longer have the benifets and protection of being sealed, because we choose the world over Him who can deliever us from all things.

I am just telling you what the Bible says Feedm3, you cannot prove from the Pauline Epistles that a Christian can lose his salvation.

That statement is pointless, because it can be said both ways. Have you PROVED we cant lose salvation?

If you think by citing Eph 4, and then saying it means this, even though it does not say it is proof, then sorry it's not.

Yet the passages I am showing you are plain as day,
1. they are written to Christians
2. They are Waring them of sin
3. The consequences are spoken
4. The consequences of falling from grace, havering Christ become of no effect, and the sacrifice not remaining anymore for our sins, are solid, valid conclusions that we cannot receive heaven in this state.

Why would I need to prove it? It's plain as day. If you refuse to accept what the passages teach, friend that is not my failure, it's yours.

I merly show the passages, and the support, so that nothing I say is opinion. Yet you are going off one passages so far, that teaches the Christian he sealed, and turnign that into somehing that totally Contradicts the other passages.

So, which is easy to understand, heb 10? Or Eph 4?

Both are simple. Yet you want me to look at Eph 4, make that passages mean something that is does not say at all, and then use that interpretaion, even though it is condraticing to the other easy warnings to Chrsitans. Now why would I do that?

Now, you can prove from Hebrews that salvation can be lost, but again, the book of Hebrews is not even written to Christians. It is written to the Hebrews.

Wow. I cant count how many times I have heard this, and all it shows is you have not really read the book of hebrews.

Do you think there was no such thing as Hebrew Christians? Are you telling me that these were not memebers of the church.

Look man, you can skim through each chapter and easily see this is a book written to Christans. Christans who also had the same problems as Gal, with false teachers, perverting the gospel, and Christians returning to the Law of Moses, or trying to keep parts of the law of Moses.

You can probraly even just google "the book of Hebrews" and look who the receipents were. So I am only going to cite a few passages from the book, because this is somehitng you can do on your own.

First, they are scolded a bit for being "dull of Hearing". Please dont make that same mistake.

Heb 5:
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers,
( how could their be a time that they should be teachers, if they were not even Christians?)

ye have need that one teach you again
("again" showing they were already taught)

which be the first principles of the oracles of God;
(Showing what they were taught)

Just from this passage we see:
1. They had known the truth long enough that they should have been teaching others.
2. They needed to be taught again the first principles fo the orcles of God.

No person who is NOT a Christian "ought" to be teaching anyone anything concerning God.

Not enough? Here: chapter 10
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching

Here the writter says Hold fast to OUR faith, including those he was writting, and encouraging them NOT to forsake the assembly of the church.

Obvisoulsy he is speaking of the first day of the week, when the Christians meet. He is NOT telling them to not forsake a law of Moses meeting.

Last one:
Now in the passgages we are discsusing, Heb 10:26, if you just read past verse 26, you would see this is clearly written to Chrisgtans, because they are being contrasted with those under the law of Moses;

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses 'law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: <------Those under the law, there punshiment comapared with those who disobey Christ see below:


29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, <---why would they be worthy of a MUCH SORER punishment than those who disobeyed under the law of Moses, if they were those under the law of Moses?

who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace <-----because they were not under the law, and by living in sin, they counted the blood of Chrsia as something that would allow them to sin, which is doing despite to Grace, because grace is not a ticket to sin.

Now, of course a lot of Scripture in Hebrews could be applied to the Church Age for instruction in righteousness, but again, the name of the book is Hebrews for a reason.

ALL the book of Hebrews can be applied to the church.

Do you know who Diotrephes is? He was one who kept the message from the Apostles to the church, from being heard by the church.

By saying these things do not apply, you are doing the exact same thing. I am saying this because I care, and warning you of what you may not know your doing.

III Jn:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not
First your telling me that Christs words cannot apply to the church when speaking of punishments, and now your telling me letters written to churches cannot be applied to Christians. So what exactly can be?

Do you really not see how dishonest this is? Some are just in error, other are in error on purpose.

That is why when it comes to the doctrine of eternal salvation for the Christian in the church age, we need to mainly be getting our doctrine from the Pauline Epistles (Romans through Philemon). Also, notice that Pauls' name is the very first word in each of the Pauline Epistles. Of course it is in the King James Bible.

Wow, so through out the rest of the NT that proves we can lose our salvation. You know, others on here have had some pretty long discussions, but this is the fist time I heard someone tell me, the Bible does not apply, only some areas.

You need to understand, Almost every letter written in the NT is addressed and speaks to Christans.

Philemon is not even written to a church, yet you include it in your personal canon.

You cant explain what is stated in these passages, so you just throw it out. Do you really feel God will be okay with that? Do you think if your sincere enough, it will be okay? I hope you reconsider your position.

You have mentioned one passage, and the rest has been pure opinion based off that one passage. If you wont review what your saying about Hebrew's not being written to Christan, I will not respond to anything else you write. Because you can open your bible to Hebrews and honestly determine within 5 minutes it is written to Christians.

One thing I learned here, is that when people wont accept when they are clearly wrong in a certain area, there is no point in going any further because no matter what is shown they will not accept it in other areas.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

]



So then your saying he was a "servant of his Lord" before he was a servant? If had not come to the Lord, and was only an opportunity, why was His Lord (His ruler) called so?

Again you are taking words to describe this and twisting them to put a different view, yet the words simply do not fit, so again why would I assume a servant was not really a servant?

Before his Lord left was he a servant? [/size]

Again, you are simply misapplying these verses to try to prove your theological argument and view of Eternal Security. I am not the one trying to twist the Scriptures here. If a person gets sent to Hell in this dispensation, then they were never saved. Period and case closed.

][/size]
Great passages that teach exactly the oppisite of what you are teaching. This shows that we MUST do the will of God. So what is the will of God?

You seriously do not know what the will of the Father is? Especially in regard to salvation?

][/size]
Hint - I Thess 4:1-f, repentance of sin. Your saying a Christian does not have to repent of sin to get to heaven, thus saying he does not have to do the will of God, while knowing and citing passages that prove that wrong.

No, you are citing passages that apply to the tribulation saint in the time of Jacobs Trouble. I already pointed that out to you. The main reason you keep going to Hebrews to try to prove a Christian can lose his salvation is because you are not rightly dividing the word of truth. Keep this in mind, all the Bible is written for us, however, not all the Bible is written to us. Some of the BIble is written directly to ISrael and the Jews, while other parts are written to New Testamnet Gentile believers. You have got to rightly divide the word of truth as we are commanded to do so in 2 Timothy 2:15

][/size]
Maybe so. and? would you say because the Lord never knew them, that means we can live in sin and go to heaven? What would have caused the Lord never to them? Sin. So if sin will cause this, how can a Christian live in sin?

A Christian should confess and repent of his sins as soon as he committed them. That is understandable. But like I said earlier, if you honest with yourself, then you know that there have been times during the day when you've had a bad thought, lusted after a woman in your heart, said something you shouldn't have said etc. And if you are going to tell me just because you sinned that day that you lost your salvation, then again, how many times can you lose your salvation and then get it back? Again, your argument does not make sense nor does it add up in light of the Bible Doctrine of the believers eternal security.

][/size]
So again repetnacne (obedience) must accompy faith. But you say were not saved by obedience (works as you define) yet if we do not obey then the Lord never knew us?

So wheater you say those who do not obey God were never saved, or Lose their salvation does not matter, the point is we MUST obey to get to heaven.

If not then what are you saying?

I am saying that in order to get to heaven we must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And when we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, we just obeyed the Gospel. And once we obey the Gospel, we are sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit.

][/size]
Of course were sealed. Why would anyone want to be saved if it were possible for someone to pull you away from God. We are sealed. Yet that does not mean YOU cant walk away from the gift.

If you do that then whose fault would that be? Yours or God's?

If I own a bank vault, and the money is inside sealed, then it is sealed from anyone taking it. yet if I choose to leave it open, then I cant blame the vault maker.

Okay, where does it ever say that in the Pauline Epistles? Why would a true Christian choose to walk away? Huh? That makes absolutely no sense. So, you are basically saying that a Christian will eventually decide that he would rather go to hell? I am not trying to be sarcastic, it just seems that that's what you are implying.

][/size]
So sorry I meant II Cor 6:1

1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain

Written to Christians, warning them of what you say is not possible. I am sure you can find an asnwer that somehow means something else, but remember, jsut because we can find an answer does not make it right. When those answers mean we have to stop intrepreting scriptures at face value, then thats a red flag.

Let's keep it in context:

We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed: - 2 Corinthians 6:1-3


Now, after you reading this Scripture in context, what do you think Paul is referring to here? Again, how does this prove a Christian can lose their salvation?

][/size]
This reasoning is not valid. If you look at what your impliying here, I would be careful. Your saying under the OT men were not allowed to live in sin, and be saved.

But under the NT since Christ died, we can now live as the prodigal son without any eternal consequences.

Second, you can use this argument because this is directly applicable to God's people, Jews or Christians.

By your reasoning, the gospels do not apply to us. To be consistent with what your saying, then anything I find in the gospels, is not applicable to me, now.

Jesus said the words he speaks the same shall judge us in the last day - Jn 12:48

So why would we be judged by words that do not apply to us? Sorry but your understanding of where the words of Christ hold in the New covenant seems to need a bit more study.

No one said that there are no consequences for a Christian living in sin. I know you have never heard me say that. If a Christian lives in sin, then that Christian will live a defeated life and quite frankly, will be miserable. Just because a Christian cannot lose his salvation, that does not mean he can't lose many other things. I already have posted in previous posts what a Christian can lose. But salvation is something which the Christian cannot lose since he is sealed by the Holy Spirit. I did not say that you couldn't apply anything from the Gospels, what I said was that when it comes to Church Age doctrine, you need to get it mainly from the Pauline Epistles. After all, Paul was given the grace to preach the Gospel unto the Gentiles. Now here is Scripture to back up what I just said.

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: - Ephesians 3:1-9

But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; - Galatians 2:7

Now, what is important to note is that Jesus and His Apostles taught and preached the Gospel of the Kingdom of God to the Jews.

The Apostle Paul taught the Gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ to the Gentiles. Paul was given the grace to preach Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles. That is why it is important for the Body of Christ to get their main doctrine from the Pauline Epistles. Again, that is why it is very important to rightly divide the Bible into its proper dispensations.

For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: - Romans 11:13 (KJB)

But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. - Galatians 1:11 (KJB)

Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; - Colossians 1:25 (KJB)

Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things. Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: - 2 Timothy 2:7-8 (KJB)

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; - Titus 1:2-3 (KJB)

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In fact none of the gospels are written to Christians. Mainly the Jews. So Jn 3:16 also would not apply, or any of the passages you all use to support oSAS from the gospels, since they were not directly said to Christians.

For the sake of arguemnt, if you wish, we can ONLY speak of NT church passages, and speak nothing of the gospels, becaue the fact is, there are volumes of passages in the NT, that teach us OSAS is false. So if you wish we can proceed in that manner.


I dont remember mentioning Heb 6. Nevertheless, your right, Heb 10:26 and Eph 4:30 must harmonize.

So we have two choices.

A proper method of interpretation is to start with the one which meaning is plain, and then use that to interprete what is not so as clear. so lets break them down.

The passages:
26 For if we sin wilfully <-----"we" means self inclusive, so Paul is obivously a Christan, so are they. Sin willfully". Not "return to the law willfully" but "sin" in general. So even in this context, Paul is showing from verse 25 that "forsaking the assembling" of the Christians is "willful sin".

26 "after that we have received the knowledge of the truth"<--- This again shows who this is pertianing to. Those who aleready recieved the knowlege of the truth. Same audiance in Chapter 6 in which Paul is telling them they should have already been teachers, or chapter 5 I mean. Again showing who this appies to.

26 "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" Some say this means animal sacrifice. Lol. There is ONLY one sacrifice for sins, and it is Christs'.

Each of the portions of this one verse is so clear and easy to understand, that a child can read it once and understand what is being said.

Now keeping the BIble in harmony, this also explains what is meant in Gal 5 when Paul said concernign those who "fall from grace" that "christ is become of no effect to you".

This how that happens, willful unrepentant sin, which cause the blood of Christ NOT to cleanse you.

Galatians 5 though is not talking about a Christian living in continual sin, the context is a Christian trying to keep the law and live under the law. That is the context, and no where does it say that the Christian fell from salvation. It says "fallen from grace." Not salvation.

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Now Eph 4:30:
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption

A great passage that in no way condraticts the simple meaning in Heb 10. Where in this passage does it say or imply that if we choose to walk away from God, we are still sealed?

Again, who is Hebrews written to primarily and doctrinally? It's written to the Hebrews in the time of Jacobs Trouble, it not being written to the Christians in the Church Age.

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This passage is actually telling you with the next passage to repent. it's message, "Greive not hte HS"

How? By sinning.

Why? because he has sealed us

How again? By making us the children of God. We are sealed. therefore, no one, not Satan, not you cousin, not anyone can MAKE you sin and pull you away from God.

So keeping this in harmony with the remote context, here is the message:

To stay sealed means we are:
Walking in the light -

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth(is cleansing - ongoing)us from all sin

Implication:
If we are not walking in the light anymore because we chose sin, then again the blood of Christ is not cleansing us, just as were told in Gal 5, and in Heb 10, he has become of no effect.

Again, I don't see how you are trying to mesh Galatians 5 with Hebrews 10. You are basically taking Church Age doctrine and attempting to mix it with Tribulation Doctrine. They do not mix in terms of Doctrine for the Christian believer now.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

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We are keeping his commands: - Jn 14:15, the only way to show we love him.

We are abstianing from sin because it is the will of God - I Thess 4:1-3

Well of course we should do our best to abstain from sin. But the point I am trying to make is that we are not sinless and if we claim to be sinless, then the truth of God is not in us.

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Now if we are doing the will of God, who can force us not to? who can pull you away from God?
No one, EXCEPT YOURSELF BY CHOOSING TO WALK AWAY AND RECEIVE HIS GRACE IN VAIN, BY LIVING IN SIN, AND THAT IS BIBLICAL SEEING THE PASSAGES I AHVE POSTED, AND NONE ARE HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

So we are sealed as long as were in teh light. If you walk away from that light and choose darkness, you no longer have the benifets and protection of being sealed, because we choose the world over Him who can deliever us from all things.

We are sealed whether or not a Christian backslides and goes out into the world. Last time I checked where was this condition listed in Ephesians 4:30?

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. - Ephesians 4:30 (KJB)

I did not see any condition in there, did you? Where did it say that we are only sealed if we walk in the light?

Are you adding to Scripture? Be careful of adding to Scripture. Be very careful.

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That statement is pointless, because it can be said both ways. Have you PROVED we cant lose salvation?

Yes I already have. Ephesians 1:13 and Ephesians 4:30. As well as John 17:11

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If you think by citing Eph 4, and then saying it means this, even though it does not say it is proof, then sorry it's not.

That is exactly what it is saying, it is saying we are sealed.

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Yet the passages I am showing you are plain as day,
1. they are written to Christians

Which ones? Certainly not Hebrews. I already told you, the book of Hebrews is written to the Hebrews during the time of Jacobs Trouble.

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2. They are Waring them of sin
3. The consequences are spoken
4. The consequences of falling from grace, havering Christ become of no effect, and the sacrifice not remaining anymore for our sins, are solid, valid conclusions that we cannot receive heaven in this state.

Why would I need to prove it? It's plain as day. If you refuse to accept what the passages teach, friend that is not my failure, it's yours.

You need to prove your argument because your the one who is claiming that a Christin can lose his salvation in the church age. Where do you find the words "salvation can be lost"? Can you give me Chapter and Verse?

Again, that verse you are quoting from Hebrews does not even apply to Christians in the Church Age, it applies to the Hebrews, the Tribulation Saints during the time of Jacobs Trouble.

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I merly show the passages, and the support, so that nothing I say is opinion. Yet you are going off one passages so far, that teaches the Christian he sealed, and turnign that into somehing that totally Contradicts the other passages.

So, which is easy to understand, heb 10? Or Eph 4?

Both are simple. Yet you want me to look at Eph 4, make that passages mean something that is does not say at all, and then use that interpretaion, even though it is condraticing to the other easy warnings to Chrsitans. Now why would I do that?

Well, of course it is going to contradict if you don't know how to rightly divide the word! That is why you cannot take Scripture out from one dispensation and try to apply it to another, you'll get into a doctrinal mess like you already have. And then you will be confused about the matter. Again doctrinally, Hebrews 10 is not for a Christian in the Church Age. How many times must I repeat that?

Not only that, you are trying to say that Galatians 5 is talking about salvation when it is not, it is talking about Christians who were trying to go back under the law.

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Wow. I cant count how many times I have heard this, and all it shows is you have not really read the book of hebrews.

Do you think there was no such thing as Hebrew Christians? Are you telling me that these were not memebers of the church.

Look man, you can skim through each chapter and easily see this is a book written to Christans. Christans who also had the same problems as Gal, with false teachers, perverting the gospel, and Christians returning to the Law of Moses, or trying to keep parts of the law of Moses.

You can probraly even just google "the book of Hebrews" and look who the receipents were. So I am only going to cite a few passages from the book, because this is somehitng you can do on your own.

First, they are scolded a bit for being "dull of Hearing". Please dont make that same mistake.

Heb 5:
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers,
( how could their be a time that they should be teachers, if they were not even Christians?)

ye have need that one teach you again
("again" showing they were already taught)

which be the first principles of the oracles of God;
(Showing what they were taught)

Just from this passage we see:
1. They had known the truth long enough that they should have been teaching others.
2. They needed to be taught again the first principles fo the orcles of God.

No person who is NOT a Christian "ought" to be teaching anyone anything concerning God.

Not enough? Here: chapter 10
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching

Here the writter says Hold fast to OUR faith, including those he was writting, and encouraging them NOT to forsake the assembly of the church.

Obvisoulsy he is speaking of the first day of the week, when the Christians meet. He is NOT telling them to not forsake a law of Moses meeting.

Last one:
Now in the passgages we are discsusing, Heb 10:26, if you just read past verse 26, you would see this is clearly written to Chrisgtans, because they are being contrasted with those under the law of Moses;

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses 'law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: <------Those under the law, there punshiment comapared with those who disobey Christ see below:


29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, <---why would they be worthy of a MUCH SORER punishment than those who disobeyed under the law of Moses, if they were those under the law of Moses?

who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace <-----because they were not under the law, and by living in sin, they counted the blood of Chrsia as something that would allow them to sin, which is doing despite to Grace, because grace is not a ticket to sin.




ALL the book of Hebrews can be applied to the church.

Do you know who Diotrephes is? He was one who kept the message from the Apostles to the church, from being heard by the church.

By saying these things do not apply, you are doing the exact same thing. I am saying this because I care, and warning you of what you may not know your doing.

III Jn:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not
First your telling me that Christs words cannot apply to the church when speaking of punishments, and now your telling me letters written to churches cannot be applied to Christians. So what exactly can be?

Do you really not see how dishonest this is? Some are just in error, other are in error on purpose.

Wow, so through out the rest of the NT that proves we can lose our salvation. You know, others on here have had some pretty long discussions, but this is the fist time I heard someone tell me, the Bible does not apply, only some areas.

You need to understand, Almost every letter written in the NT is addressed and speaks to Christans.

No, not all books and letters of the New Testament is addressed to Christians. The book of James is not written to Christians. The book of James is written to the twelve tribes scattered abroad. James said that right in his intro.

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. - James 1:1 (KJB)

He showed who he was addressing. We Christians are not the twelve tribes. Again, this shows some of the ignorance of people who do not rightly divide their Bible. Now, if you would have read my earlier posts, then you would have seen that I already stated that about 95% of the book of Hebrews can be applied to the Church Age for instruction in righteousness. Doctrinally though, you need to be careful since the book of Hebrews is written to the Hebrews and not to Christians. The Christians (the Body of Christ) will already be out of here before the tribulation begins. That is why it is called the time of Jacob's trouble. It is not the Church's trouble, please bear that in mind.

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Philemon is not even written to a church, yet you include it in your personal canon.

Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer, - Philemon 1:1

Paul wrote Philemon, therefore it is a Pauline Epistle. Notice his name is the very first word that appears in this epistle.

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You cant explain what is stated in these passages, so you just throw it out. Do you really feel God will be okay with that? Do you think if your sincere enough, it will be okay? I hope you reconsider your position.

What passage did I throw out? What are you talking about?

Do you feel that God would be okay with you not rightly dividing His word? After all, He has commanded us to rightly divide the word of truth. Read 2 Timothy 2:15 again.

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You have mentioned one passage, and the rest has been pure opinion based off that one passage. If you wont review what your saying about Hebrew's not being written to Christan, I will not respond to anything else you write. Because you can open your bible to Hebrews and honestly determine within 5 minutes it is written to Christians.

Again, while most of Hebrews can be applied to the Church Age for instruction in righteousness, keep in mind that Hebrews and James are written to the Tribulation Saint. Again, you need to rightly divide the word. Otherwise, your going to just be confused.

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One thing I learned here, is that when people wont accept when they are clearly wrong in a certain area, there is no point in going any further because no matter what is shown they will not accept it in other areas.

The reason why I am not accepting your argument is because you are basically privately interpreting the Scriptures and trying to make them line up with your belief. Another reason is because you are not rightly diving the Bible into its dispensations.And one last reason is because I know that from reading the Scriptures that a Christian cannot lose his salvation. In the dispensation of grace, we are baptized into the Body of Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise as soon as we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Here is more than one Scripture to support the Doctrine of Eternal Security:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. - John 10:28

Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. - 1 Peter 1:5

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. - John 10:29

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39


And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. - John 6:39



And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. -John 17:11


If you could lose your salvation, then basically you are saying that the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made on the cross was not good enough by itself but there is something else needed on your behalf to secure your salvation.

Since salvation is a gift, and since it is received by grace through faith and not of works. Then that means we cannot lose our salvation. It is the gift of God.