Eternal Security/OSAS is Bad Doctrine

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Cee

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May 14, 2010
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Romans 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
 

GodsGrace101

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Sep 14, 2018
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Ephesians 1: 13-14 says, “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.” So what does this verse really mean?



The Eternal Security/OSAS person does not understand this verse correctly because they keep thinking the “SEALING” is irreversible. Like the Holy Spirit is implanted within them now and cannot escape. But is this correct?



How did you receive the Holy Spirit the first time? Through faith in Christ. Who is Paul writing this letter to? The church at Ephesus. Believers. Believers. Believers.



Let me say it one more time in the hopes that it will sink down into your ears. They were BELIEVERS.



I already gave you the analogy of electricity and Jesus. So let’s think about it the correct way. If you stop believing, His Spirit leaves you. You flipped the light switch off. It’s just like the sap from the vine/Jesus in John 15. No more sap going into the branch which is you. No more of His life.



A “seal” in the Bible is a mark of ownership. In Revelation 13 we read about all the people who take the “mark of the beast” and everybody who takes the “mark” perishes. Why? Because they belong to the devil. It is a mark of ownership and allegiance. They are unbelievers.



How do I know this? Look at the immediate context that follows right after Revelation 13.



Revelation 14: 1, “Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.”



Why is the name written on their foreheads? And why is it on their foreheads only? The “mark of the beast” in Revelation 13 is on both foreheads and hands. Why?



Because in the Bible the forehead represents the mind/heart and what you believe. The hand represents your works/actions.



We are saved by faith alone in Christ alone. This is why you see the name in Revelation 14: 1 written only on their foreheads and no mention of hands. Who are these people in Revelation 14: 1?



They are the same group in Revelation 7: 1-4. What does it say there? To paraphrase the verses it says, “…don’t harm anything until we SEAL the servants of our God on their foreheads…” The number is the exact same of Revelation 14. 144,000. Rev 7 and 14 are the same group.



A “SEAL” is a mark of ownership in the Bible. Who does God own? People of faith. Because it is what you believe in your mind/heart. This is why it is only on their foreheads in Rev 14: 1. They have put their trust in Christ. When a person stops believing, God doesn’t own them anymore. They have abandoned Him. No more seal. His Spirit departs.



Paul is speaking figuratively in Ephesians 1: 13 and 4: 30 saying to those believers that they belong to God because of their FAITH IN CHRIST. AND AS LONG AS THEY KEEP THAT FAITH IN CHRIST, GOD WILL FULFILL HIS PROMISES TO THEM.



There are 80 verses and passages within the New Testament that say a person must continue to believe to the end of their life or they will not be saved. To deny this is to deny Scripture. I can list them upon request if anyone wants them.



Now having said all this, I want to offer one caveat. I believe in the ETERNAL SECURITY OF THE SHEEP ONLY. What do I mean by this?



John 10: 26-29 says, “But you do not believe, because you are not My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”



This is the favorite passage of the Eternal Security/OSAS believer. They think this means that once you are “born again” and “sealed” that it is irreversible.



Something very important in this passage needs to be noted. JESUS IS NOT SAYING THAT ONLY SHEEP BELIEVE IN JOHN 10: 26. This is a logic error OSAS advocates make. This passage is a big reason why OSAS people think you “can’t lose your salvation” as they would put it.



I have already shown in this post that there are at least TWO CLASSES OF BELIEVERS. How do we reconcile this with John 10: 26-29?



In my opinion, the fourth soil, the one with the “good and sincere” hearts who bear fruit with patience, are the “sheep” of John 10 that Jesus is talking about. This is the only group of believers that will hang on to their faith their whole lives. Why?



Because they love God. And God gives them the revelation they need to keep believing. And because they love God they never leave Him or listen to anyone else and Jesus preserves them THROUGH THEIR FAITH THAT THEY KEEP ALL OF THEIR LIVES.



The second soil believers, along with the John 15: 6 believers, along with the John 2: 23-25 believers, along with the John 8: 31 believers, do not really love God. Their faith eventually dies. Why?



They leave because the road is hard and narrow as Matthew 7: 13-14 tells us and because they have “bad hearts” they go back to the world.



These BELIEVERS, and Jesus tells us they are all REAL BELIEVERS, perish eternally because they don’t hang on to their trust in Christ.



Sin hardens their heart, which is already “rocky soil” and not good to begin with, and their REAL FAITH DIES.



This is what the Scripture says. These are not my opinions. The only opinion I have given is that I believe that the fourth soil is probably the sheep of John 10. This is why I say I believe in the “eternal security of the sheep only”. But there is more than one class of REAL BELIEVERS.



Everything else I have given is Scripture alone and I believe proves that OSAS is false.



If you disagree with any of my conclusions, please use Scripture alone to tell me why. I would be happy to dialogue with you and love discussing the Scriptures.



God bless.
Very good study.
I agree with you that OSAS is a very dangerous belief system. It's found nowhere in the N.T. but made up by those to whom is sounds nice.

Some VERY FEW verses that are not understood are used to proof text this belief.
The sealing.
Once a son always a son.
Nothing can take us away from God.

I tire of explaining the above and how it has nothing to do with eternal salvation.
Some go so far as to say that they could live however they wish to and still be saved.
This goes against everything Jesus ever said when He spoke to teach us how to be better persons.

Some, instead, believe that God makes it impossible for us to ever leave Him..this idea is a little different but it takes away our free will and thus is also incorrect. They'll say that once we have known God we will never WANT to leave him...but we all know persons that have.

Anyway, just a word of encouragement...you need it !
:)
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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Try not to put people into neat, tidy boxes like "Calvinist". Many aspects of Calvinism I agree with, some I don't. so please leave the labels at the door.

OK. Second soil it is then.

Matthew 13:5 Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had NO ROOT they withered away.

Who is the root? If you can get your mind around WHO the Root is, then you can see they NEVER had HIM.

Also, meditate, don't just read, this passage AGAIN:
1 John 2:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
You must be talking about
Luke 8:13 where JESUS says that THEY BELIEVE FOR A WHILE and in time of temptation, fall away.
"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away."

Do you suppose Jesus knew what "believing for a while" meant?
Are you ready to debate Jesus??
 

GodsGrace101

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Sep 14, 2018
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Not a problem of you bowing out because you cannot disprove the faith; Jude 1:3. Therefore you wish to debate only those you feel you have a chance to win against, or accept agreement among those who believe your misconstrued texts.

It isn't really Calvinism you'd be debating, but contextual exegetically interpreted Scripture.

"OSAS" has virtually always been the teaching of the church until false doctrine came in from Arminius and others. Even the book of Hebrews was one used extensively to prove that there is eternal security to the believer and was accepted into the canon.

Here is the problem, and it is a foundational problem of your teaching: You believe faith is innate and inherent, and that man chooses his salvation, either to maintain it, lose it or gain it. Biblically this is untrue, as faith is God's gift granted to the saved. You have man as the captain of his salvation, not God, and therefore make many errors of interpretation. Like I said, yours is a foundational problem based upon an exalted and unbiblical view of man.
Could you post some proof that shows that OSAS was always a church teaching?
Please no gnostics.
 

GodsGrace101

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Sep 14, 2018
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I highly doubt you'd listen, you've already convinced yourself your interpretations are correct and that salvation is up to man in either losing it, maintaining it, or gaining it.
Man is not responsible?
You mean it's God's fault if I end up in hell?
 

GodsGrace101

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Sep 14, 2018
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Thankfully, the word of truth tells us we are not justified by our individual faith, but the faith of Jesus Christ. His faith is not about our works, but His work on the cross. You should study Paul's letters to the church more.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Yes, with faith comes obedience, but it's the faith of Jesus Christ that justifies the believer and Christ's perfect obedience unto death, even the death of the cross.
Galatians 2:16
What do you think the works of the law are?
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
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Matt 13:19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart.

This is where doctrinal paradigms comes into effect. Some people read this and see, "word of the kingdom" as simply being eternal life. And where you go once you die. But Jesus is saying here, this word of the kingdom will cause fruit here, now, in this world. This word kingdom is presenting an invitation for us to further submit to the King through His word as well. By doing this we prove the good will of the Father (Romans 12).

But what does Jesus mean some won't have depth?

Matt 13:23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Notice Jesus says only 1 of the 4 types actually received the seed on good ground. That means the other 3 unfortunately did not. They didn't have the right "heart conditions" for the seed of the Sower. I personally believe these heart conditions are established by Holy Spirit. But that's another topic.

Back to the Scripture, notice further on in v23 the good ground isn't simply he who "hears the word" but he who also "understands it".

The Greek word for "understand" here is: syníēmi

It's very similar to the English word "synthesize". Jesus is saying it's not enough to hear, but you also must have space to understand what you're hearing. You must "synthesize" what is being said. Essentially we must meditate, chew, and absorb the word of the kingdom. And by doing this the word, takes root in our heart and bears fruit.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I disagree with your "context" claim about the book. And even more so with applying it to the scripture in question. It is a book written to Christians of Jewish heritage. In that order. Not the other way around.
I disagree with your view.

Hebrews was written to distinguish to the jewish christians why Jesus is a much better was of salvation.

It is written to Hebrew christians concerning issues they were suffering through in the day it was written.

Taking it any other way causes us to misinterpret the book.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Now compare with this scripture. Do the results agree? (previous verse below for comparison)

John 15:5-6
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

1 Corinthians 3:14-15
If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
1 concerns eternal rewards gven in heaven.

The other concerns god pruning Gods children in this life so they can produce fruit.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Did you have a question for me? I thought it was just a comment.
You said it was difficult

I showed it is not difficult. That Gods way is simple.

You did not respond, do you agree with it or not? (You ignored what I said in my response to you is what I mean)
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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Could you post some proof that shows that OSAS was always a church teaching?
One would have to post the entire New Testament. So what you should do is put aside all your preconceived or indoctrinated ideas, and go back to square one. Go through the entire New Testament and grasp the doctrine of the eternal security of the believer.
 
Mar 14, 2011
73,626
16,429
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Very good study.
I agree with you that OSAS is a very dangerous belief system. It's found nowhere in the N.T. but made up by those to whom is sounds nice.

Some VERY FEW verses that are not understood are used to proof text this belief.
The sealing.
Once a son always a son.
Nothing can take us away from God.

I tire of explaining the above and how it has nothing to do with eternal salvation.
Some go so far as to say that they could live however they wish to and still be saved.
This goes against everything Jesus ever said when He spoke to teach us how to be better persons.

Some, instead, believe that God makes it impossible for us to ever leave Him..this idea is a little different but it takes away our free will and thus is also incorrect. They'll say that once we have known God we will never WANT to leave him...but we all know persons that have.

Anyway, just a word of encouragement...you need it !
:)
Lol..

Legalism is dangerous not eternal security.

One trusts in self. The other in Gods promises.

I suggest you trust God, and stop thinking trusting in God is dangerous.
 
Mar 14, 2011
73,626
16,429
113
You must be talking about
Luke 8:13 where JESUS says that THEY BELIEVE FOR A WHILE and in time of temptation, fall away.
"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away."

Do you suppose Jesus knew what "believing for a while" meant?
Are you ready to debate Jesus??
No one is saved because they merely believe.

We are aved because we have faith

If temptation causes us to fall. We had no faith..

I think jesus knows the difference between saving faith and mere belief.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
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No one is saved because they merely believe.

We are aved because we have faith

If temptation causes us to fall. We had no faith..

I think jesus knows the difference between saving faith and mere belief.
This is spot on. Believe in the Greek is man's part. Faith is God breathed and in response to looking to Him. (Hebrews 12:2)

Belief calls it done, faith knows its done.

Here's the nail in the coffin of temporary security:

1 John 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Faith is evidence we have overcome the world. And everyone born of God (thus saved) overcomes. The mere fact we have faith shows we've been given the victory.
 

Sketch

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Nov 1, 2018
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I disagree with your view.

Hebrews was written to distinguish to the jewish christians why Jesus is a much better was of salvation.

It is written to Hebrew christians concerning issues they were suffering through in the day it was written.

Taking it any other way causes us to misinterpret the book.
That's ridiculous.
Why would Jewish Christians, that's Christians, need to be convinced why Jesus was a much better way of salvation?
Doesn't the fact that they were Christians already answer that question? Seems so.
 

preacher4truth

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Dec 28, 2016
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That's ridiculous.
Why would Jewish Christians, that's Christians, need to be convinced why Jesus was a much better way of salvation?
Doesn't the fact that they were Christians already answer that question? Seems so.
Seriously? You really need to ask that question? Have you read much about God's people, his "sheep" in Scripture?
 

Sketch

Well-known member
Nov 1, 2018
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1 concerns eternal rewards gven in heaven.

The other concerns god pruning Gods children in this life so they can produce fruit.
What about the results?
In one scripture the believer was saved, but as through the flames with nothing to show.
In the other they had nothing to show and were thrown into hell.

John 15:5-6
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

1 Corinthians 3:14-15
If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.