Eternal Security/OSAS is Bad Doctrine

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preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
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I'm new here. I have never been here before. You have been treating me like crap ever since I arrived. What is wrong with you?
Challenging your responses is not treating you "poorly."
And yes, you lied to me. Your behavior is indeed unchristian.
Show me where I lied to you. Calling you out for being here before isn't unChristian. You really have a hard time with not adding to what people have said, and/or assuming things on them. '

Now show me where I lied to you.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
Where is the love chapter located? Between I Corinthians chapters twelve and fourteen. Does that make sense? (nope)
Same thing happening here. The faith chapter is in Hebrews eleven. What does that have to do with the law?
Actually 1 Co 13 does make a lot of sense being where it is. You see chapter 12 is about the gifts, but then he says... but I show you a better way... chapter 13 (love)... and 1 Co 14 is about desiring prophesy over tongues... because it helps others (love)....

We can see his argument flow like this:

Gifts are good (12)... in love (13).... here's what gifts in love looks like (14)...
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
30,828
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Where is the love chapter located? Between I Corinthians chapters twelve and fourteen. Does that make sense? (nope)
Same thing happening here. The faith chapter is in Hebrews eleven. What does that have to do with the law?
wow man, you really think Paul randomly & nonsensically launches into a totally unrelated handful of paragraphs about love for no reason whatsoever in the middle of that letter?
that explains why you keep talking about ch. 11 in reply to whether ch.6 has a context or not.

 

Sketch

Well-known member
Nov 1, 2018
1,278
300
83
It's not you, it's him.
He seems to treat everybody like that.
It's unfortunate because Jesus said we're to love one another.
Thanks. It seems they think I am a previous poster returning under a new username. As they snicker behind my back and then falsely claim it is indeed Christian behavior. Thanks for confirming my suspicions.
 

Sketch

Well-known member
Nov 1, 2018
1,278
300
83
Challenging your responses is not treating you "poorly."

Show me where I lied to you. Calling you out for being here before isn't unChristian. You really have a hard time with not adding to what people have said, and/or assuming things on them. '

Now show me where I lied to you.
Don't blame me for your unchristian behavior. I have a confirmation from a regular here.
 

Sketch

Well-known member
Nov 1, 2018
1,278
300
83
Actually 1 Co 13 does make a lot of sense being where it is. You see chapter 12 is about the gifts, but then he says... but I show you a better way... chapter 13 (love)... and 1 Co 14 is about desiring prophesy over tongues... because it helps others (love)....

We can see his argument flow like this:

Gifts are good (12)... in love (13).... here's what gifts in love looks like (14)...
I get that the point ius that not everythijng in the bokk of Hebrews is about the law.
Do you plan to answer my post, or just dance around the point?
 

Sketch

Well-known member
Nov 1, 2018
1,278
300
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wow man, you really think Paul randomly & nonsensically launches into a totally unrelated handful of paragraphs about love for no reason whatsoever in the middle of that letter?
that explains why you keep talking about ch. 11 in reply to whether ch.6 has a context or not.


My point is that not everything in the book of Hebrews is about the law.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Yep..he does disagree with your view and aligns perfectly with my view.......

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by FAITH without the deeds/works of the law.
Come on D, you must know very well that you're interpreting James incorrectly here.
This is James talking, not some guy on the street.
@Sketch is 100% right.

James 2:14-18
14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.


18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

14 Faith will always produce good works.
can a faith that has no works save? No. Because it is not faith...faith obeys.

15 & 16 What good is it to bless someone and not help them? True faith will always produce a good work. In this case, supplying clothing and food for some needy person.

17 Faith without works is a dead faith.

18 We cannot separate faith from works...they go together as Jesus meant them to.
Faith without works if of no use to anyone...God wants us to do His bidding.
True faith is proven BY one's works.

19 Mental belief alone is not sufficient. We must believe with our heart and do as Jesus commanded.

20 FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS USELESS.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
I would agree that it does not say/mean that. What does it mean then?
Alright so we both agree it's not the literal interpretation. So in this case we have to seek God, context, and prayerful study to understand these harder passages. So I'll share my thoughts with you.

Okay notice what the author is focusing on in this passage...all these good life producing things... you've experienced the heavenly gift, you heard the word, you participated in all of these things... but you still don't have fruit? This type of person can not be lead to repentance, basically the idea is, they can't repent because they have experienced everything and it had no effect on them.

The overarching theme of Hebrews is not going back under the old sacrificial system and relying on Christ alone (even in the midst of persecutions).

Let's look at the next few verses to see this.

7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Here's the author is contrasting different types of ground, one is useful and one is worthless.

Please notice that it didn't yield useful vegetation at one point, but that the focus is on it's worthless ground. Nothing can come out of it. So I don't believe this is a believer who falls away. We see this even more clearly in the next verse.

9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.

The author says, look I know I'm sounding harsh here, but I'm not saying this about YOU. I believe you are saved. And because you are saved the things that accompany salvation will be seen from you. And in fact have been seen from you in the past. You'll see he goes on to point those out in the next few verses.

His letter is to remind them they are saved. They are not worthless ground. And to continue to hold fast in what they believed. In my opinion, if they don't hold fast, well they never truly believed. His focus is to stay under the redemptive work of Christ and not fall under any other - especially after everything they've experienced and done so far.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Thanks. It seems they think I am a previous poster returning under a new username. As they snicker behind my back and then falsely claim it is indeed Christian behavior. Thanks for confirming my suspicions.
I wouldn't worry about it too much.
 

Sketch

Well-known member
Nov 1, 2018
1,278
300
83
Alright so we both agree it's not the literal interpretation. So in this case we have to seek God, context, and prayerful study to understand these harder passages. So I'll share my thoughts with you.

Okay notice what the author is focusing on in this passage...all these good life producing things... you've experienced the heavenly gift, you heard the word, you participated in all of these things... but you still don't have fruit? This type of person can not be lead to repentance, basically the idea is, they can't repent because they have experienced everything and it had no effect on them.

The overarching theme of Hebrews is not going back under the old sacrificial system and relying on Christ alone (even in the midst of persecutions).

Let's look at the next few verses to see this.

7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Here's the author is contrasting different types of ground, one is useful and one is worthless.

Please notice that it didn't yield useful vegetation at one point, but that the focus is on it's worthless ground. Nothing can come out of it. So I don't believe this is a believer who falls away. We see this even more clearly in the next verse.

9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.

The author says, look I know I'm sounding harsh here, but I'm not saying this about YOU. I believe you are saved. And because you are saved the things that accompany salvation will be seen from you. And in fact have been seen from you in the past. You'll see he goes on to point those out in the next few verses.

His letter is to remind them they are saved. They are not worthless ground. And to continue to hold fast in what they believed. In my opinion, if they don't hold fast, well they never truly believed. His focus is to stay under the redemptive work of Christ and not fall under any other - especially after everything they've experienced and done so far.
If you don't know the answer just say so. There is nothing wrong with that. Okay?
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
If you don't know the answer just say so. There is nothing wrong with that. Okay?
Interesting reply. Just because I am honest enough to admit that this is a harder passage to understand, I'm not sure why you chose to answer this way. If you want someone to tell you exactly what this passage means good luck. I believe in intellectual honesty and this is one of the harder passages in the Bible to understand. I don't think I'll be responding to you anymore because I don't feel like you valued my contribution to you. Take care.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
30,828
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My point is that not everything in the book of Hebrews is about the law.
well my point wasn't even close to 'everything in the book of Hebrews is about the law' so . . .

is this a good time/place to talk about methods for cooking rice?
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
You have a real hard time controlling your tongue, don't you, FranC? James 1:26. And full of slander as well. Wonder what such behavior means?

As for your quotes, those have to do with not persevering in the faith and showing ones self to not be truly converted. But cut and paste away, FranC.
You won't answer my posts at no. 364?
And you reply with the above instead?

I believe you should show me where I slandered you and where I didn't control my tongue and where I didn't behave properly?

This would be nice since I know you're falsely accusing me.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,713
113
FranC and PHart or Ralph~, together again with the same agenda.
 

Sketch

Well-known member
Nov 1, 2018
1,278
300
83
Interesting reply. Just because I am honest enough to admit that this is a harder passage to understand, I'm not sure why you chose to answer this way. If you want someone to tell you exactly what this passage means good luck. I believe in intellectual honesty and this is one of the harder passages in the Bible to understand. I don't think I'll be responding to you anymore because I don't feel like you valued my contribution to you. Take care.
I appreciated the effort, but you in fact did not contribute from my perspective. However, you may in the future. Let's both stay honest. I didn't mean to insult you or push you away. I sincerely apologize. I'm, just frustrated over this whole discussion. Of which you have had a minor part. Are we good? I hope so.