Eternal Security: What do you do with James 2?
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Hello ResidentAlien, I believe that, James 2:14-26, is all about two different kinds of faith, one lively or saving, and one dead. One that produces/results in good works (and all of the other things that "accompany salvation" .. Ephesians 2:10; Hebrews 6:9), and a second kind of faith that results in nothing. One kind of faith that is possessed by all of the saints of God (by believers who have come to true, saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ), and another kind of faith that is possessed by demons and non-believers (those who acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of the Most High God, like the demons do, but who never trust Him as their Savior, nor do they surrender their lives to Him as their Lord ..... at least demons "shudder" when they think of Him, yes .. v19).
I do not believe that St. James is referring to 'our' works as being "necessary" for salvation (rather, as I and others have said, they are the "fruit/result" of our salvation, never the cause). We are, after all, saved by "grace" (aka, God's UN-merited favor towards us, and that, from first to last, IOW, from the very moment in our lives when we first believe/come to true, saving faith in Jesus, until the time that we go home to be with Him, we are "saved" by grace .. e.g. John 5:24).
So (again), I believe that St. James is comparing two different kinds of faith and telling us how we can recognize them for what they are, like he tells us here (in what I believe to be a somewhat "tongue in cheek" manner):
Our works are what demonstrate/prove/validate/justify who we truly are (to ourselves and to others .. not to God, of course). So our works are a big part of the proof that we need to have assurance that our claim/belief that we have come to "saving" faith in Christ is actually true .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 13:5.
I'm not a OSAS believer (at least not in that way that doctrine is most often understood today), but I do hold to the Reformed doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints .. which should really be called the PRESERVATION of the Saints by God, because that is exactly what He does for us (preserves all who are His in the faith, fromsalvation to Glory) .. e.g. John 10:27-28; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25; Jude 24-25).
Question, do you believe that we will be able to lose our salvation in Heaven, or on the New Earth, in the age to come
Thanks!
God bless you
~Deut
p.s. - I've found this to be an interesting thread, because I've never been in a discussion about eternal security before that focused on (or even used) James 2 as evidence that true, saving faith can be lost.
I do not believe that St. James is referring to 'our' works as being "necessary" for salvation (rather, as I and others have said, they are the "fruit/result" of our salvation, never the cause). We are, after all, saved by "grace" (aka, God's UN-merited favor towards us, and that, from first to last, IOW, from the very moment in our lives when we first believe/come to true, saving faith in Jesus, until the time that we go home to be with Him, we are "saved" by grace .. e.g. John 5:24).
Romans 11
6 If by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works; if it were, then grace would no longer be grace.
So (again), I believe that St. James is comparing two different kinds of faith and telling us how we can recognize them for what they are, like he tells us here (in what I believe to be a somewhat "tongue in cheek" manner):
James 2
18 Someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
Our works are what demonstrate/prove/validate/justify who we truly are (to ourselves and to others .. not to God, of course). So our works are a big part of the proof that we need to have assurance that our claim/belief that we have come to "saving" faith in Christ is actually true .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 13:5.
I'm not a OSAS believer (at least not in that way that doctrine is most often understood today), but I do hold to the Reformed doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints .. which should really be called the PRESERVATION of the Saints by God, because that is exactly what He does for us (preserves all who are His in the faith, fromsalvation to Glory) .. e.g. John 10:27-28; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25; Jude 24-25).
Question, do you believe that we will be able to lose our salvation in Heaven, or on the New Earth, in the age to come
Thanks!
God bless you
~Deut
p.s. - I've found this to be an interesting thread, because I've never been in a discussion about eternal security before that focused on (or even used) James 2 as evidence that true, saving faith can be lost.
John 5
24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has 'eternal' life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
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This short article was the be all end all for me on this confusing verse. In short, works do not save you, they are merely evidence that you are saved.
I pray all who struggle with this verse reads it. It will make you feel better.
https://bible-truth.org/James2-24.html
I pray all who struggle with this verse reads it. It will make you feel better.
https://bible-truth.org/James2-24.html
For 300 years after Christ the core of the church was agreed that faith in Christ meant faith in all Christ told them. They didn't think of faith as something that is only of the mind. That idea t1came about only after Contantine led the church in the ways of the world instead of the ways of Christ.
When Hebrew language was written in pictograph the word faith was a picture of a fist hammering a nail in the wall. It said that faith was a solid something you could depend on to hang your life onto.
Christ affirmed this when we are told that it isn't be laying Lord, Lord that we enter the kingdom of heaven but by doing the will of the Father. Christ and the Father are one.
When Hebrew language was written in pictograph the word faith was a picture of a fist hammering a nail in the wall. It said that faith was a solid something you could depend on to hang your life onto.
Christ affirmed this when we are told that it isn't be laying Lord, Lord that we enter the kingdom of heaven but by doing the will of the Father. Christ and the Father are one.
Precious friend, Yes, God Means What He Says, And Says What He Means!
Our Problem is Determining HIS Context, and WHO is it DIRECTLY addressed TO!
Only ONE way that I have found Scripturally, to accomplish this =
obey God's Command in 2 Timothy 2:15, like this:
James in God's Context TO "The TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL" (James 1:1)
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!”:
Paul, in God's Context TO "The Body Of CHRIST" (Romans - Philemon KJB!)
--------------
Simple, eh? Only ONE is Directly addressed TO us, Today, Under GRACE!
Easy choice, Correct? Caveat is, we can still learn from the other one,
without "throwing it away," right?
More Right Division, for all who wish to solve all Confusion!:
God's Approval/TWO Different Gospels
Distinctions In God's Two Different Programs: Prophecy vs Mystery!
And ETERNAL Assurance Evidence TO us, Today Under GRACE!:
God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!
God's FREE Gift of ETERNAL Life!
Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified!
In JESUS' Precious Name!
Our Problem is Determining HIS Context, and WHO is it DIRECTLY addressed TO!
Only ONE way that I have found Scripturally, to accomplish this =
obey God's Command in 2 Timothy 2:15, like this:
James in God's Context TO "The TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL" (James 1:1)
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!”:
Paul, in God's Context TO "The Body Of CHRIST" (Romans - Philemon KJB!)
--------------
Simple, eh? Only ONE is Directly addressed TO us, Today, Under GRACE!
Easy choice, Correct? Caveat is, we can still learn from the other one,
without "throwing it away," right?
More Right Division, for all who wish to solve all Confusion!:
God's Approval/TWO Different Gospels
Distinctions In God's Two Different Programs: Prophecy vs Mystery!
And ETERNAL Assurance Evidence TO us, Today Under GRACE!:
God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!
God's FREE Gift of ETERNAL Life!
Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified!
In JESUS' Precious Name!
Besides verse 19 revoking Tritheism, Amen, you'll notice James 2 doesn't state one is saved by their works.
Faith without serving God's will and purpose for that reborn redeemed person is not faith at all.
Faith people who do no good thing for others are like unto those who claim Christ but then are not charitable, empathetic, kind, giving, toward others. They're not in Christ.
Those who are in Christ don't even think about the works part of that scripture. They're simply responsive when they're needed in some way, wherever they are.
Faith without serving God's will and purpose for that reborn redeemed person is not faith at all.
Faith people who do no good thing for others are like unto those who claim Christ but then are not charitable, empathetic, kind, giving, toward others. They're not in Christ.
Those who are in Christ don't even think about the works part of that scripture. They're simply responsive when they're needed in some way, wherever they are.
Hi.. I don't know you so just asking. Allot was said in that whole chapter...he was talking about something. When you read 'Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" Do you see the "works"? WHY was Abraham about to offer Isaac? God told him to. Abraham was walking by faith. If Isaac was dead Abraham could not be the father of many nations so he knew some how some way Isaac would live. He didn't know how but trusted walked by faith. Do you see the works? Is not just believing John 3 16..what GOD said.. we then blindly believe aka faith not knowing how but knowing if HE said it no matter what happens to us.. we will not tasted death but will live forever.
Yet when talking about "salvation" it is a gift and those works are not what keeps it safe from .. I don't know dropping it? The "works" are to me like fruit.. its what comes .. whats produced. Right there were not doing it He is for no branch can produce fruit from its self it has to come from the vine. I'm man living in a fallen world were demons and fallen angels.. I am nothing to them.. I like dust. Then GOD comes alone dies for the world the good news. So He makes this new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Maybe I should be asking what does "salvation" mean to you? Is it a word and we just believe John 3 16 and then duh must do good things works to show to prove (lake of a better word) that we love Him? Something dead was made new. Its not a word not a belief its what we walk in then notice this flesh this sin that is in me...is not me.
Not sure if I am making any sense lol. I was not promised tomorrow and there is NO fear with God. I didn't find Him He found me. I can't undo what a GOD made new. I don't have that power. Its not of this world. We must by faith with out wavering just believe or "But he must ask [for wisdom] in faith, without doubting [God’s willingness to help], for the one who doubts is like a billowing surge of the sea that is blown about and tossed by the wind."
Doubt is not of God....
Yet when talking about "salvation" it is a gift and those works are not what keeps it safe from .. I don't know dropping it?
The "works" are to me like fruit.. its what comes .. whats produced. Right there were not doing it He is for no branch can produce fruit from its self it has to come from the vine. I'm man living in a fallen world were demons and fallen angels.. I am nothing to them.. I like dust. Then GOD comes alone dies for the world the good news. So He makes this new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Maybe I should be asking what does "salvation" mean to you? Is it a word and we just believe John 3 16 and then duh must do good things works to show to prove (lake of a better word) that we love Him? Something dead was made new. Its not a word not a belief its what we walk in then notice this flesh this sin that is in me...is not me.
Not sure if I am making any sense lol. I was not promised tomorrow and there is NO fear with God. I didn't find Him He found me. I can't undo what a GOD made new. I don't have that power. Its not of this world. We must by faith with out wavering just believe or "But he must ask [for wisdom] in faith, without doubting [God’s willingness to help], for the one who doubts is like a billowing surge of the sea that is blown about and tossed by the wind."
Doubt is not of God....
Precious friend, Great Question!:
2Co_13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
My personal test for me would be:
(1) Do I have The PEACE Of God that passes all understanding (Romans 5:1;
Philippians 4:7)?
(2) Do I have "The Fruit of The Spirit" (Galatians 5:22-23)?
(3) Do I "LOVE my neighbor, as myself" (Galatians 5:14; Romans 13:8-10)?
(4) Do I love God's WORD, And Magnify IT above all else, in my life
(Psalms 138:2)?
IF not, the I would go back and review/believe God's Gospel Of GRACE!
2Co_13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
My personal test for me would be:
(1) Do I have The PEACE Of God that passes all understanding (Romans 5:1;
Philippians 4:7)?
(2) Do I have "The Fruit of The Spirit" (Galatians 5:22-23)?
(3) Do I "LOVE my neighbor, as myself" (Galatians 5:14; Romans 13:8-10)?
(4) Do I love God's WORD, And Magnify IT above all else, in my life
(Psalms 138:2)?
IF not, the I would go back and review/believe God's Gospel Of GRACE!
Hi.. I don't know you so just asking. Allot was said in that whole chapter...he was talking about something. When you read 'Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" Do you see the "works"? WHY was Abraham about to offer Isaac? God told him to. Abraham was walking by faith. If Isaac was dead Abraham could not be the father of many nations so he knew some how some way Isaac would live. He didn't know how but trusted walked by faith. Do you see the works? Is not just believing John 3 16..what GOD said.. we then blindly believe aka faith not knowing how but knowing if HE said it no matter what happens to us.. we will not tasted death but will live forever.
Yet when talking about "salvation" it is a gift and those works are not what keeps it safe from .. I don't know dropping it? The "works" are to me like fruit.. its what comes .. whats produced. Right there were not doing it He is for no branch can produce fruit from its self it has to come from the vine. I'm man living in a fallen world were demons and fallen angels.. I am nothing to them.. I like dust. Then GOD comes alone dies for the world the good news. So He makes this new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Maybe I should be asking what does "salvation" mean to you? Is it a word and we just believe John 3 16 and then duh must do good things works to show to prove (lake of a better word) that we love Him? Something dead was made new. Its not a word not a belief its what we walk in then notice this flesh this sin that is in me...is not me.
Not sure if I am making any sense lol. I was not promised tomorrow and there is NO fear with God. I didn't find Him He found me. I can't undo what a GOD made new. I don't have that power. Its not of this world. We must by faith with out wavering just believe or "But he must ask [for wisdom] in faith, without doubting [God’s willingness to help], for the one who doubts is like a billowing surge of the sea that is blown about and tossed by the wind."
Doubt is not of God....
Yet when talking about "salvation" it is a gift and those works are not what keeps it safe from .. I don't know dropping it?
The "works" are to me like fruit.. its what comes .. whats produced. Right there were not doing it He is for no branch can produce fruit from its self it has to come from the vine. I'm man living in a fallen world were demons and fallen angels.. I am nothing to them.. I like dust. Then GOD comes alone dies for the world the good news. So He makes this new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.Maybe I should be asking what does "salvation" mean to you? Is it a word and we just believe John 3 16 and then duh must do good things works to show to prove (lake of a better word) that we love Him? Something dead was made new. Its not a word not a belief its what we walk in then notice this flesh this sin that is in me...is not me.
Not sure if I am making any sense lol. I was not promised tomorrow and there is NO fear with God. I didn't find Him He found me. I can't undo what a GOD made new. I don't have that power. Its not of this world. We must by faith with out wavering just believe or "But he must ask [for wisdom] in faith, without doubting [God’s willingness to help], for the one who doubts is like a billowing surge of the sea that is blown about and tossed by the wind."
Doubt is not of God....
Next teaching scripture gives us separately is that if we have faith in what Christ tells us then we act on that faith. You can['t have faith in that we are not to lie as Christ told us and at the same time live by lies. That is a fact and don't mix it up with grace. These facts are not related. Rightly divide the word.
I believe apostle James was talking to Jews about true faith,If It Is real will produce works shown that Men could see.
James 2:18
King James Version
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Romans 4:1-2
King James Version
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
James 2:18
King James Version
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Romans 4:1-2
King James Version
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
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