Eternal Security: What do you do with James 2?

[Runningman]

But isn't God the One who ultimately decides if our faith is genuine. We can do good works toward our fellows all day long but if they aren't accompanied by faith toward God He doesn't recognize them. Why should we need to prove our faith to another person when it's God who weighs the heart? Something here doesn't pass the smell test.

Yes God weighs the heart and knows all things, but people don't know all things. Faith is enough to be righteous before God, but faith alone doesn't make someone a good Samaritan, put food in someone's belly, clothes on their back, etc. From what I can tell this is exactly what James 2 is about.

It's difficult for me to understand why God would impart righteousness through faith in Christ and then not accept that faith in Christ as adequate.

1 Corinthians 5:21
21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[JBTN]

What this thread has shown me is that the doctrine of faith alone has brainwashed a great many people. When verses like those in James 2 appear they don't know what to do with them so they just revert to the standard faith only doctrine: "Well, I just know we're saved by faith alone, end of story." Or they redirect to something written by someone else because they have no ideas of their own on James 2.

Some have used mental gymnastics, and some have resorted to the ridiculous, like: "God doesn't decide who is of genuine faith and who is isn't."

Some have stated works are evidence of faith but they play no role in our salvation. I agree, works are evidence of our faith, but they play a very important role in our salvation.

Unfortunately, many have accepted the false doctrine that you believe, say the sinner's prayer and you're in the club. . .forever. But this simply isn't true.

I've been accused of not considering all of scripture, so let's look at some other scripture:

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."—1 Corinthians 1:18

We're saved—we're being saved—and we will be saved. Salvation's an ongoing process and works—or actions—for those afraid of the word works are just as necessary as faith.

“And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:5‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/rom.4.5.ESV

How do you view this verse?

 

[CS1]

“And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:5‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/rom.4.5.ESV

How do you view this verse?

faith, Hope, Belief, salvation, are nothing

WITHOUT CHRIST.

Your hope is dead, your faith is dead, and you have no salvation without HIM.

IF the church would start speaking and acting like Christ is the only way to Salvation AS HE said.

This thread topic would be irrelevant. As would many others.

 

[ResidentAlien]

“And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:5‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/rom.4.5.ESV

How do you view this verse?

I agree our faith is counted as righteousness, but not forever and for all time. That's what you want this verse to mean.

Yes we are indeed saved by faith in the Lord if we endure to the end. And enduring means doing good, not just thinking good.

"And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up."—Galatians 6:9

This is the last post I intend to respond to that doesn't directly concern James 2. That's the subject of this thread.

 

[Sipsey]

Unfortunately, many want to use a few verses to claim a particular doctrine. They don’t do the proper leg work for context. They also seem to want a personal standard whereby they can be , “Just like God,” knowing who is saved and who isn’t. Mathew 4:4 is a great quote, from Deuteronomy 8:3-But He answered and said, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God,“ in other words, keep reading.

 

[CS1]

Unfortunately, many want to use a few verses to claim a particular doctrine. They don’t do the proper leg work for context. They also seem to want a personal standard whereby they can be , “Just like God,” knowing who is saved and who isn’t. Mathew 4:4 is a great quote, from Deuteronomy 8:3-But He answered and said, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God,“ in other words, keep reading.

it don't mean a thing unless you got the King

 

[SomeDisciple]

James 2 is good, and Paul does not contradict him at all. I think everyone's faith is tested by God, like Abraham's was, and at some point you will have to do something that shows that you trust him, or your faith is dead faith.

When Paul is talking about "not by works" he is talking about 'works of the law'- to Christians who are being approached by Jews that are trying to push Jewish Law onto Christians. He's explaining that your personal holiness under the law cannot earn you God's grace. We all sin under the law, and the wages of our works is death; therefore we have to recieve life as a gift. The gift is given by Jesus to anyone that believes. But as we see in James, Abraham's faith was accounted to him as righteousness when it was fulfilled by his obedience- which had nothing to do with holiness under the law.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What this thread has shown me is that the doctrine of faith alone has brainwashed a great many people. When verses like those in James 2 appear they don't know what to do with them so they just revert to the standard faith only doctrine: "Well, I just know we're saved by faith alone, end of story." Or they redirect to something written by someone else because they have no ideas of their own on James 2.

Some have used mental gymnastics, and some have resorted to the ridiculous, like: "God doesn't decide who is of genuine faith and who is isn't."

Some have stated works are evidence of faith but they play no role in our salvation. I agree, works are evidence of our faith, but they play a very important role in our salvation.

Unfortunately, many have accepted the false doctrine that you believe, say the sinner's prayer and you're in the club. . .forever. But this simply isn't true.

I've been accused of not considering all of scripture, so let's look at some other scripture:

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."—1 Corinthians 1:18

We're saved—we're being saved—and we will be saved. Salvation's an ongoing process and works—or actions—for those afraid of the word works are just as necessary as faith.

I think before you start judging other people of being brainwashed you should seek your own soul

People who believe in fwith alone realise that there is nothign they could do to earn salvation. And you will never hear of them boasting in anything but God

Sadly, People like you boat of how you do not teach work. Then in the next breath, teach works.

It is not the faith only people contradicting themselves. It is people like you.

And we do not have to say you are brainwashed. We just have to give you some scripture. And pay you see it for what it says. Not for what you think it says.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

faith, Hope, Belief, salvation, are nothing

WITHOUT CHRIST.

Your hope is dead, your faith is dead, and you have no salvation without HIM.

IF the church would start speaking and acting like Christ is the only way to Salvation AS HE said.

This thread topic would be irrelevant. As would many others.

As long as people are claiming that it is our works by which we maintain, or keep from losing salvation.

Threads like this will continue

John said we can KNOW we have eternal life. And it is this bases (not our works) that we can continue to have faith in christ.

Sadly people want us to think, as the op. That salvation will not be assured until the end. Which gives no one any hope. If anything it puts a burden on them that no one can handle. or makes them self righteous people who hide the fact that they are sinners worthy of condemnation.

Religion is good. Only when we put it in its place. When we use it to tell God to look at us. It stops being fruitful and starts to be unfruitful

 

[Chester]

This isn't another thread on faith v. works. It's a question to those who do believe in eternal security. I'd like to hear your comments.

Three scriptures in James 2 present a very serious problem for faith only. They are:

James 2:14

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?"

James 2:17

"So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

James 2:22

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;"

What do you do with these scriptures?

Ignore them?
Pretend they don't exist?
Are the mistranslated or misunderstood?
Should James be removed from the canon?

I'd like to hear your explanations for why these scriptures don't mean what they apparently mean.

There is really no such thing "faith alone": and that is what James says here = a faith by itself (with no works) is dead, hence is not a saving faith at all.

A person is saved by grace through faith, not of works (Eph. 2:8-10), and James is clear that a true faith will have some level of works.

If one comes to the text of James with an open heart and without preconceived doctrine, it is easy to take James at face value for what he says, without having to try to twist, turn, and duck to get around what the text says.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree our faith is counted as righteousness, but not forever and for all time. That's what you want this verse to mean.

Yes we are indeed saved by faith in the Lord if we endure to the end. And enduring means doing good, not just thinking good.

"And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up."—Galatians 6:9

This is the last post I intend to respond to that doesn't directly concern James 2. That's the subject of this thread.

Eternal life is eternal my friend

You are preaching conditional life

once again, The endure to the end passage is about those living in the tribulation period. And speaks of enduring to the day christ returns. In which case, You will be saved from tribulation and enter his 1000 year reign with him

It is giving them HOPE in the time of great tribulation

its sad people have taken Gods words of encouragement and turned it into legalism.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

James 2 is good, and Paul does not contradict him at all. I think everyone's faith is tested by God, like Abraham's was, and at some point you will have to do something that shows that you trust him, or your faith is dead faith.

When Paul is talking about "not by works" he is talking about 'works of the law'- to Christians who are being approached by Jews that are trying to push Jewish Law onto Christians. He's explaining that your personal holiness under the law cannot earn you God's grace. We all sin under the law, and the wages of our works is death; therefore we have to recieve life as a gift. The gift is given by Jesus to anyone that believes. But as we see in James, Abraham's faith was accounted to him as righteousness when it was fulfilled by his obedience- which had nothing to do with holiness under the law.

A few things in response

1. James is talking to people who have NO WORKS. Not to people who had works, then stopped them when tested.
2. Paul spoke of any works, In titus 3 he said not by works of righteousness which we have done. This would include any work of righteousness. In Rom 4 he spoke of abraham, There was no law when abraham was doing his sanctifying works. So he could not be talking about the law. We must be careful and interpret correctly. Which in context. Some of what paul said was concerning the law ( as the jews were trying to insert the law to the gospel) but not every time. Pauls letters were to gentiles who did not have the law. Not jews. So again, We must interpret paul as they would interpret him
3. Paul said lest anyone should boast. We boast or take credit for works when we claim any work we do is part of our salvation. A person who thinks they must be water baptised to be saved, boast of saving themselves by the fact they were water baptized. Add any work and you come up with the same conc;Union. If works are done in order to earn, keep maintain or not lose salvation. It is a works of boasting and we take the credit and not God.
4. Abraham offered his son up decades after he was considered righteous by God, God did not wait until this act to declare abraham was saved. In fact it took along time for abraham to gain this much faith. Just look at his earlier years. Where he lacked faith in things concerning a son, which led to adultry and a son out of wedlock.

 

[rayzor]

i'm not concerned 4 people that think, once saved always saved.Or those that think u most endure until the end.But those that think it's ok 2 sin because they have been forgiven.

 

[BillG]

i'm not concerned 4 people that think, once saved always saved.Or those that think u most endure until the end.But those that think it's ok 2 sin because they have been forgiven.

Paul addressed this in Romans 5-6

 

[seed_time_harvest]

i'm not concerned 4 people that think, once saved always saved.Or those that think u most endure until the end.But those that think it's ok 2 sin because they have been forgiven.

1 John 3:1-3
King James Version

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

 

[CS1]

As long as people are claiming that it is our works by which we maintain, or keep from losing salvation.

Threads like this will continue

John said we can KNOW we have eternal life. And it is this bases (not our works) that we can continue to have faith in christ.

Sadly people want us to think, as the op. That salvation will not be assured until the end. Which gives no one any hope. If anything it puts a burden on them that no one can handle. Or makes them self righteous people who hide the fact that they are sinners worthy of condemnation.

Religion is good. Only when we put it in its place. When we use it to tell God to look at us. It stops being fruitful and starts to be unfruitful

I have yet to see one claim that it's our works. BUT as I said in the Post you responded to,,

faith, Hope, Belief, salvation, are nothing

WITHOUT CHRIST.

Your hope is dead, your faith is dead, and you have no salvation without HIM.

there is no need to circle the wagon around the camp of OSAS or any other thing if you Don't have Christ you have nothing

 

[Pilgrimshope]

This isn't another thread on faith v. works. It's a question to those who do believe in eternal security. I'd like to hear your comments.

Three scriptures in James 2 present a very serious problem for faith only. They are:

James 2:14

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?"

James 2:17

"So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

James 2:22

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;"

What do you do with these scriptures?

Ignore them?
Pretend they don't exist?
Are the mistranslated or misunderstood?
Should James be removed from the canon?

I'd like to hear your explanations for why these scriptures don't mean what they apparently mean.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Abraham is the example we have in James and many other places regarding faith. Paul points here

“Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:6-9‬ ‭

Abraham didn’t just believe that God exists , he believed what God said to him . This is the source of faith. He was accounted righteous here because he believed what God said regarding his promised seed

“And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭15:4-6‬ ‭

James is explaining that there is a fulfillment of faith which was Abraham’s obedience

“And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭22:15-18‬

James is not disparaging salvstion through faith and by grace but instead he is completing our understanding of faith not being an empty thing but having power beyond the words.

Abraham was accounted as righteous before his actions completed his faith , but faith being sincere obeyed and was fulfilled the righteousness that was decreed first came to pass when Abraham was tested

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:21-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God speaks forth righteousness to Abraham first by faith , and later Abraham’s faith obeys because he believes so it is for us in Christ

“(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:17-18, 21-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s about believing the word spoken by God before we have evidence Gods word has creative power he is calling for righteousness from us who were once incapable sinners. Speaking forth light into our hearts with effectual power to change our core being from sinner to born again man walking by faith.

James and Paul work perfectly together to give us a complete understanding of faith that works and saves us even before we have performed that which faith is calling for

 

[JBTN]

This isn't another thread on faith v. works. It's a question to those who do believe in eternal security. I'd like to hear your comments.

Three scriptures in James 2 present a very serious problem for faith only. They are:

James 2:14

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?"

James 2:17

"So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

James 2:22

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;"

What do you do with these scriptures?

Ignore them?
Pretend they don't exist?
Are the mistranslated or misunderstood?
Should James be removed from the canon?

I'd like to hear your explanations for why these scriptures don't mean what they apparently mean.

On James 2:14 when you look at it in Greek. One of the possible ways to render can in “Can that faith save him?” is unless.
so this could be: Unless that faith save him. In light of Romans 4:5 this seems realistic. Also, consider Romans 10:9-11.


“And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:5‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/rom.4.5.ESV

“because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:9-11‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/rom.10.9-11.ESV


Another thing to consider is the word good, which is often translated profit. It implies increase, accumulation or gain. So, without works there would no increase, accumulation, or gain. In other words no other souls saved, only the one.

 

[ResidentAlien]

When Paul is talking about "not by works" he is talking about 'works of the law'-

This is good, thank you.

 

[ResidentAlien]

There is really no such thing "faith alone": and that is what James says here = a faith by itself (with no works) is dead, hence is not a saving faith at all.

A person is saved by grace through faith, not of works (Eph. 2:8-10), and James is clear that a true faith will have some level of works.

If one comes to the text of James with an open heart and without preconceived doctrine, it is easy to take James at face value for what he says, without having to try to twist, turn, and duck to get around what the text says.

Thank you.