Eternal Security

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Viligant_Warrior

Guest
Good point! Why would that be there? Why is "remain in me and I will remain in you" there if its impossible to leave?
The Greek meno (meno) means "remain, abide" but it also means "to wait for." I would suggest, in the context of the rest of the Bible which I see as teaching eternal security, that "wait for" is a better understanding of the entire passage, where Jesus used the word eleven times.
 
Nov 14, 2012
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Because it is possible for each of go backwards at times. Are you always energetic and happy and rainbows and sunshine follow you wherever you go? I know I'm not. Sometimes I'm too tired to hungry and a little to crabby.
I experience all these things, but I have never lost my faith. I think it is possible to lose faith. I know people who have and are living sinful lives. Are they saved? By talking with them, they once had faith
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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It has been my experience, in regard to those who do not believe in Eternal Security, that it simply boils down to a pride issue.

They are so proud they're stronger, more holy, dedicated, and loyal than you. They pity your "weakness" and are eager to pray that you will one day be as successful in Christianity as they are. There is no nothing humble about them. Any slip-up earns instant condemnation and a demand to even stricter obedience to the rules.

They are, for the most part, humorless and loveless. They rarely admit to what is glaringly apparent: They live in constant fear they may have committed an offense that puts them back on that hell-bound road. They spend enormous amounts of time begging God for forgiveness for sins unknown. Nagging doubt is their constant companion.

Any "pleasure" that doesn't totally involve rigid religiosity is shunned as evil. They smash even the novice Christian with a broad and heavy stick of the Law, as if to say, "See God? I'm serving you well! I'm doing good! See how hard I'm fighting for you?" They fancy themselves as "warriors" for God in the Old Testament vein.

They are often mentally exhausted. Going through their checklist of works continually. Always on the lookout for anyone, including themselves, who step out of the narrow, legalistic circle they've created.

And they love to play the persecuted martyr. Suffering so much for the cause.

Their official prayer could be: "God, I thank-you that I am not like other people - robbers, evildoers, adulterers - or even like this tax-collector." (Luke 18:11)


For they are truly, modern day Pharisees. And they are to be pitied.
 
Nov 14, 2012
2,113
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It has been my experience, in regard to those who do not believe in Eternal Security, that it simply boils down to a pride issue.

They are so proud they're stronger, more holy, dedicated, and loyal than you. They pity your "weakness" and are eager to pray that you will one day be as successful in Christianity as they are. There is no nothing humble about them. Any slip-up earns instant condemnation and a demand to even stricter obedience to the rules.

They are, for the most part, humorless and loveless. They rarely admit to what is glaringly apparent: They live in constant fear they may have committed an offense that puts them back on that hell-bound road. They spend enormous amounts of time begging God for forgiveness for sins unknown. Nagging doubt is their constant companion.

Any "pleasure" that doesn't totally involve rigid religiosity is shunned as evil. They smash even the novice Christian with a broad and heavy stick of the Law, as if to say, "See God? I'm serving you well! I'm doing good! See how hard I'm fighting for you?" They fancy themselves as "warriors" for God in the Old Testament vein.

They are often mentally exhausted. Going through their checklist of works continually. Always on the lookout for anyone, including themselves, who step out of the narrow, legalistic circle they've created.

And they love to play the persecuted martyr. Suffering so much for the cause.

Their official prayer could be: "God, I thank-you that I am not like other people - robbers, evildoers, adulterers - or even like this tax-collector." (Luke 18:11)


For they are truly, modern day Pharisees. And they are to be pitied.
Wow, I don't think I am like this post. I know people like this and avoid them, but I don't believe in eternal security as defined here
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
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It has been my experience, in regard to those who do not believe in Eternal Security, that it simply boils down to a pride issue.

They are so proud they're stronger, more holy, dedicated, and loyal than you. They pity your "weakness" and are eager to pray that you will one day be as successful in Christianity as they are. There is no nothing humble about them. Any slip-up earns instant condemnation and a demand to even stricter obedience to the rules.

They are, for the most part, humorless and loveless. They rarely admit to what is glaringly apparent: They live in constant fear they may have committed an offense that puts them back on that hell-bound road. They spend enormous amounts of time begging God for forgiveness for sins unknown. Nagging doubt is their constant companion.

Any "pleasure" that doesn't totally involve rigid religiosity is shunned as evil. They smash even the novice Christian with a broad and heavy stick of the Law, as if to say, "See God? I'm serving you well! I'm doing good! See how hard I'm fighting for you?" They fancy themselves as "warriors" for God in the Old Testament vein.

They are often mentally exhausted. Going through their checklist of works continually. Always on the lookout for anyone, including themselves, who step out of the narrow, legalistic circle they've created.

And they love to play the persecuted martyr. Suffering so much for the cause.

Their official prayer could be: "God, I thank-you that I am not like other people - robbers, evildoers, adulterers - or even like this tax-collector." (Luke 18:11)


For they are truly, modern day Pharisees. And they are to be pitied.
You couldn't be more wrong. We may thank God for things, but we also feel a lot of guilt knowing that our actions need repentance. Every night I pray to God for help, strength, and forgiveness. Most nights I am in tears. There have even been nights I have actually hope God would take me in my sleep so I don't suffer another day. Please tell me, how is that pride or the attitude of a Pharisee?

Just because you may not agree with one's belief doesn't mean you know their heart or their struggles, and it certainly doesn't give you or anyone the right to doubt their closeness to God.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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Honest question (as in not trying to start an argument):
The second one, where does that right come from?

And, just because that word "right" is so vague to me, and these thoughts keep coming through my head, I'll list the thoughts so you know where I'm coming from in asking:
-- The only place I've seen men think out what a right was and then applied it to their agenda was the Declaration of Independence. (American document, just in case any nonamericans don't know which declaration I'm talking about. Our founding fathers drafted it to send to George III of England, which, of course, started our revolutionary war.) They really did think it out though, and called them inalienable rights from God, and yet changed their minds on one of those rights -- "pursuit of happiness" was originally about owning property. So, yeah, I really don't get where we have rights from. I don't see rights mentioned in the Bible... or I have seen them but don't remember them. (It's possible with me. lol)

-- Kind of keep remembering two things with that whole "outward evidence" thingy. The first is my life in Christ. I was saved at 16, three months before Mom died and made me promise to raise up my little brother (who was 5 then) as a good Catholic (I already agreed to being his godmother, so it really was my duty to worry about his religious upbringing. I simply had no idea what that meant either since I tought I promised to raise him up to be Catholic, but then became Christian... and that goes round and round, but it was a serious problem), plus daddy issues and I was stuck going home with Dad, which... well all collapsed me into a druggie by the time I was halfway through my first year of college, so there wasn't much -- if any fruit -- from me until I gave up on my way my senior year to go back to pursue God's way. I was saved though.

And second, those two good friends I keep talking about. For all I can tell they truly were saved. To best describe their personalities and enthusiasm for God, you (JIA) remind me of one of the guys -- all interested in getting to the depths of understanding God's word, but not as light and quick at a joke as Sirk is. (Not to say "not funny" but just to say "serious more often.") The other one was somewhere between a cross between Sirk and Marc, if you can imagine such a crossover. It felt like he had studied the Word nonstop all his life, which he did, but he was the son of missionaries, a lawyer and in his 20s, so I never could figure out how he got it so fast and so right. But despite that serious sounding background, he was quick with the jokes too and passionate like Sirk.

But both of them walked away after 30 years. To me this is as confusing and heartbreaking as it would be if I found out you or Sirk walked away 10 years from now.

So I'm really stuck on do we have this right? AND, if we do, what are we supposed to do with it? You really couldn't tell I was a Christian at all for two years, and I really wouldn't know what to make of it if you and Sirk walked 10 years from now. (BTW, to be clear -- DON'T DO THAT! Do NOT ever walk away. Seems obvious, but it seemed like it should have been obvious to them too.)
It is NOT our role to determine where anyone will spend eternity; but we are to attempt to lead to Christ EVERYONE whose life does not exhibit the fruit of the Spirit.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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You couldn't be more wrong. We may thank God for things, but we also feel a lot of guilt knowing that our actions need repentance. Every night I pray to God for help, strength, and forgiveness. Most nights I am in tears. There have even been nights I have actually hope God would take me in my sleep so I don't suffer another day. Please tell me, how is that pride or the attitude of a Pharisee?

Just because you may not agree with one's belief doesn't mean you know their heart or their struggles, and it certainly doesn't give you or anyone the right to doubt their closeness to God.

I am sorry, but that is a terrible way to live. Where is the joy of your salvation? Why do you feel guilt over sins that God has wiped away? Why feel condemnation when there is none? You have been set free! Please realize this!
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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Another question I would like to ask is what does it mean to be blotted out of the book of life if you were once there?
In my concordance, I find no instance of any name being added to the Book of Life.

I find several instances of names blotted out; or names being already written.

It therefore seems to be a reasonable inference that all are born with their names written in the book of life; and names ate blotted out when God determines that they are beyond redemption.
 
Dec 1, 2014
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The fact is the over-whelming majority have rejected the bible for man-made teachings and that is why you have all religious groups that are full division and contradiction......which the bible consistenlty condemns.

Psa 127:1 "Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain."

Mt 15:13 "But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up."

Eph 4:4,5 "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,"

Anything not of that one body, one faith was built in vain and will be rooted up.
The Word of God says:

Make a joyful noise to the Lord. It also says, whatever you do, do to the glory of God.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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I am sorry, but that is a terrible way to live. Where is the joy of your salvation? Why do you feel guilt over sins that God has wiped away? Why feel condemnation when there is none? You have been set free! Please realize this!
I am in no way at all trying to say I feel like that all thetime, or every night or anything like that, but I to get in that state fromtime to time and I love it. I personally get overwhelmed with His undeservedmercy that I in no way deserve, yet He gave His only son for me (us of course,just in the context if my feelings at the time) and that's enough to break meevery time. I've been on my face like this before and not even able to look upbecause I feel overwhelmed by His presents. I wish I could get there to thatplace every day, and don't feel it's suffering at all. Now I'm not sure ifthat's what she meant or not, but that's a place I have been and It wasn'tsuffering at all. Just because we get overcome with emotion doesn't always meanwe are in pain or suffering. I understood what you mean though and we shouldn't be feeling condemnation all the time for sure, but I also feelit’s not all joy and rainbows either, I just felt compelled to share myperspective. Thanks.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
Did the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah worshiped God with musical instruments? No wonder why God decide to destroy it.
Maybe they had the same musical talent I have. If musical talent gets us to heaven, I would have been dumped in hell before birth. Between being tone deaf and sounding like a foghorn, I really am lost for musical talent. lol
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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In my concordance, I find no instance of any name being added to the Book of Life.

I find several instances of names blotted out; or names being already written.

It therefore seems to be a reasonable inference that all are born with their names written in the book of life; and names ate blotted out when God determines that they are beyond redemption.

There's a difference between the Book of Life and the Lambs Book of Life. That's why the Bible speaks of the books being opened.

The Book of Life has the name of everyone who has been born written in it. The Lambs Book Of Life has the name of every believer in Jesus (the saved) written in it.

When a name is blotted out of the Book of Life, it means they have died and are experiencing the second death. Eternal separation from God in hell.

The names in the Lambs Book of Life can never be blotted out.
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
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I am sorry, but that is a terrible way to live. Where is the joy of your salvation? Why do you feel guilt over sins that God has wiped away? Why feel condemnation when there is none? You have been set free! Please realize this!
I know these things, but that doesn't mean the devil isn't bugging the crap out of me right now and preying on my weaknesses. It's a struggle at times.
 
Nov 14, 2012
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Maybe they had the same musical talent I have. If musical talent gets us to heaven, I would have been dumped in hell before birth. Between being tone deaf and sounding like a foghorn, I really am lost for musical talent. lol
He said make a joyful noise! ;)
 
B

BradC

Guest
Ungodly is not just living an immoral lifestyle but includes disobedience to God's commands, as in disobeying God's command to believe. Therefore all unbelievers are ungodly, whether they live morally or not. So there is no such thing as a saved believer that lives ungodly.

Men are not unconditionally born sinners, but are sinners for they have chosen to sin/transgress God's law.
This is where you make a grave error in your understanding about sinful man. Adam's sin is inherit in man from conception and Jesus had to come and crucify it through death to give sinful man a scapegoat for sin. I love the fact that we have a scapegoat for sin and when we sin we reckon that sin on the body of Christ crucified and not imputed to me. Was not God in Christ reconciling the world unto himself by not imputing their trespasses and sins unto them? We are not saved until we believe that I our heart.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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I know these things, but that doesn't mean the devil isn't bugging the crap out of me right now and preying on my weaknesses. It's a struggle at times.

Indeed, it is a struggle. We are at war. But the victory has already been won. We are to rest in the Lord, and be joyful over the fact our sins have all been forgiven. Your strength needs to come from the fact that your sins will never again be counted against you. There is no more condemnation for you. God's wrath no longer rests on you. You have been completely redeemed - completely forgiven. That is God's promise, and the source of our hope and happiness.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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Catholic is Christian, anywho, How do you reconcile these scriptures if OSAS is real?1 Cor 10:11-12, 2 Tim 2:11-12

That depends on how you define Christian. I define Christian as one who accepts Scripture (Both Old and New Testaments) as the absolute standard of authority and EVERYTHING that contradicts Scripture as a lie or an error.
This acceptance must go beyond mental assent and be the basis for both faith and lifestyle.

I believe that this definition includes all the essential beliefs , doctrine and teachings necessary for Salvation.


I also believe that this definition excludes the teachings of the RCC, Mormons, JWs, and Jewish Roots Movement, among others.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
This just seems like another OSAS thread
Well, considering every OSAS I've seen on here blast at people who know OSAS, it's the opposite... in a confusing kind of way. lol
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
You couldn't be more wrong. We may thank God for things, but we also feel a lot of guilt knowing that our actions need repentance. Every night I pray to God for help, strength, and forgiveness. Most nights I am in tears. There have even been nights I have actually hope God would take me in my sleep so I don't suffer another day. Please tell me, how is that pride or the attitude of a Pharisee?

Just because you may not agree with one's belief doesn't mean you know their heart or their struggles, and it certainly doesn't give you or anyone the right to doubt their closeness to God.
Living in guilt, worry or fear is not the Christian way of life. The Lord doesn't want you crying yourself to sleep.

What our Lord wants us to do is get our focus back on Him, and the fact that He took our guilt so we have no worry or fear.

Repenting or naming and siting our sins is, " I did that, you took care of it." And we rest in His victory.

We are to live in His victory over our failures.It is freedom and rest.

Guilt, worry and fear are all sins. He does not want us living in them.

And this is just as much for me as anyone.

And I don't even like to picture a sister in Christ crying herself to sleep.:( You do not need to, and shouldn't.