Eternal Security

[atwhatcost]

You mean Dr. Erwin? I read the Original Post and did not agree with it because he is ignoring other verses. In John 10, the sheep that cannot be snatched out of His hand are those sheep that FOLLOW Him. Read the chapter yourself. That's what it says. It's not talking about rebellious sheep. In John chapter 6, the word SHOULD is used. Should is a "maybe" word that does not mean it is a guarantee. Just skip back the previous chapter and read John 5:48. The context of the verse he uses in John 6 is in relation to John 5:48 that says that if you reject the words of Jesus, then those words will judge you on the last day.



Actually, no. This is the first time I went thru Romans 6 with those particular verses in order before. If you disagree, why don't you tell me what you think they are saying. To me, they are pretty straight forward. I don't see how you and others here can ignore them.

Wow! Ya know something? All this time I thought you were dialoging with people, even if you disagreed. That's what I liked about you. But either I was wrong or you did a real aphasia thing right here. No, Sirk didn't mean Dr. Erwin. Sirk doesn't have aphasia. (I know. I do.) If he wanted you to listen to the video of Dr. Erwin, he would have said that. He didn't. He said,

please listen to the sermon by Adrian Rogers on the first page of this thread

So either you might have aphasia or you completely changed what Sirk said for your own purposes.

If you are so sure of what you believe than why won't you listen to the video?

 

[Utah]

Salvation is PAST TENSE! Already finished, accomplished through the grace of God.

No one is saying to go and sin and revel. Every single person in this forum believes that because of the grace of God, we are obedient.

By constantly bringing up this straw man, you lose anyone who might be reading. We just shake our heads and walk away from these false accusations.

What you wrote:

Salvation is PAST TENSE! Already finished, accomplished through the grace of God.

No one is saying to go and sin and revel. Every single person in this forum believes that because of the grace of God, we are obedient.

By constantly bringing up this straw man, you lose anyone who might be reading. We just shake our heads and walk away from these false accusations.

What was received:

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah . . .

 

[Sirk]

This just seems like another OSAS thread

What if you when you went to your sons baseball game you focused on the loss or what he did wrong instead of what he did right, or how he lost the game with dignity and honor? Shame based religion is not from God.

 

[mwc68]

Honest question (as in not trying to start an argument):
The second one, where does that right come from?

And, just because that word "right" is so vague to me, and these thoughts keep coming through my head, I'll list the thoughts so you know where I'm coming from in asking:
-- The only place I've seen men think out what a right was and then applied it to their agenda was the Declaration of Independence. (American document, just in case any nonamericans don't know which declaration I'm talking about. Our founding fathers drafted it to send to George III of England, which, of course, started our revolutionary war.) They really did think it out though, and called them inalienable rights from God, and yet changed their minds on one of those rights -- "pursuit of happiness" was originally about owning property. So, yeah, I really don't get where we have rights from. I don't see rights mentioned in the Bible... or I have seen them but don't remember them. (It's possible with me. lol)

-- Kind of keep remembering two things with that whole "outward evidence" thingy. The first is my life in Christ. I was saved at 16, three months before Mom died and made me promise to raise up my little brother (who was 5 then) as a good Catholic (I already agreed to being his godmother, so it really was my duty to worry about his religious upbringing. I simply had no idea what that meant either since I tought I promised to raise him up to be Catholic, but then became Christian... and that goes round and round, but it was a serious problem), plus daddy issues and I was stuck going home with Dad, which... well all collapsed me into a druggie by the time I was halfway through my first year of college, so there wasn't much -- if any fruit -- from me until I gave up on my way my senior year to go back to pursue God's way. I was saved though.

And second, those two good friends I keep talking about. For all I can tell they truly were saved. To best describe their personalities and enthusiasm for God, you (JIA) remind me of one of the guys -- all interested in getting to the depths of understanding God's word, but not as light and quick at a joke as Sirk is. (Not to say "not funny" but just to say "serious more often.") The other one was somewhere between a cross between Sirk and Marc, if you can imagine such a crossover. It felt like he had studied the Word nonstop all his life, which he did, but he was the son of missionaries, a lawyer and in his 20s, so I never could figure out how he got it so fast and so right. But despite that serious sounding background, he was quick with the jokes too and passionate like Sirk.

But both of them walked away after 30 years. To me this is as confusing and heartbreaking as it would be if I found out you or Sirk walked away 10 years from now.

So I'm really stuck on do we have this right? AND, if we do, what are we supposed to do with it? You really couldn't tell I was a Christian at all for two years, and I really wouldn't know what to make of it if you and Sirk walked 10 years from now. (BTW, to be clear -- DON'T DO THAT! Do NOT ever walk away. Seems obvious, but it seemed like it should have been obvious to them too.)

Catholic is Christian, anywho, How do you reconcile these scriptures if OSAS is real?1 Cor 10:11-12, 2 Tim 2:11-12

 

[Utah]

So you can't or won't be truthful?

There's something about people having the number 63 in their username that causes me pause.

 

[atwhatcost]

Actually, my message is one of righteousness. For the purpose of the Word of God is to correct and to instruct or train others in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16).

For what is sin?

Sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4).

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For fornicators, for homosexuals, for slave traders, for liars, for perjurers, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust." (1 Timothy 1:9-11).

As for the fruit of the Spirit: You see what you want to see. I do display love in the fact that I do not attack back with insulting remarks when others do so towards me. Many times I will say kind words back. I am at peace and I am joyful in God my Savior.

As for scaring a new believer: Actually, Jesus says, narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it. Jesus says, he would prefer that we be either hot or cold. I see the OSAS doctrine as a luke-warm doctrine that allows one to get away with some sin while also serving the Lord. Some will object to this and say that the believer is supposed to live a holy life; But when push comes to shove, they will admit that they can die in unrepenant sin (Such as murder, lying, hating, adultery, etc.) and still be saved (Which is wrong).

As for the claim that a believer cannot stop sinning: Paul says sin shall not have dominion over you (Romans 6:14). Do you believe him? Paul also said that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24). Peter said that those who have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin (1 Peter 4:1). Jesus said be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48). Jesus said if you sin, you are a slave to sin (John 8:34). The author of Hebrews said, Jesus is the author of our eternal salvation for all who OBEY Him (Hebrews 5:9).

Oh, it's righteous all right. My problem with it is it's your righteousness.

 

[notuptome]

Another question I would like to ask is what does it mean to be blotted out of the book of life if you were once there?

In context this is speaking of those who change the word of God. Can one becomes saved if they change the word of God?

Revelation includes two books. One is the book of life from which all men are judged. All who are judged from this book are condemned. The second book is the Lambs book of life. Those whose names are written here are allowed into the kingdom. The names written in the Lambs book of life are never blotted out. Sealed from before the foundation of the world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[tourist]

You mean Dr. Erwin? I read the Original Post and did not agree with it because he is ignoring other verses. In John 10, the sheep that cannot be snatched out of His hand are those sheep that FOLLOW Him. Read the chapter yourself. That's what it says. It's not talking about rebellious sheep. In John chapter 6, the word SHOULD is used. Should is a "maybe" word that does not mean it is a guarantee. Just skip back the previous chapter and read John 5:48. The context of the verse he uses in John 6 is in relation to John 5:48 that says that if you reject the words of Jesus, then those words will judge you on the last day.



Actually, no. This is the first time I went thru Romans 6 with those particular verses in order before. If you disagree, why don't you tell me what you think they are saying. To me, they are pretty straight forward. I don't see how you and others here can ignore them.

Jesus told a parable once about searching for a single lost sheep to bring it back to the fold. If what you have said is true than the parable that Jesus told has no meaning whatsoever.

 

[Utah]

Yes...I too would like to hear those commands....once again. Is there anything else we should be especially watchful over in regards to being ungodly. I mean, I get the big ones like, don't cuss and keep a pure heart and all that but it would be helpful if you would list specific ones for me so I can cover all my bases.

The best sure-fired way to go to hell is to break out guitars and play How great Thou Art in worship service. That may be the dumbest thing I've ever written in my life.

 

[atwhatcost]

So turning from sin is not about righteousness? That is what I am telling people to do. If folks are already do that, then nobody here would be getting upset. For the Law was not made for a righteous man (as I said before). Who is the Law made for?

You sometimes remind me of a Steve Martin bit:
Let me teach you how to get a million dollars tax free.
First, get a million dollars.

You keep assuming that first step (not sinning) is doable and easy.

Which, for the record, IS what the law was about. It was supposed to take us to a face plant to the ground, and we cry out loud, "But God, I can't. Help me."

 

[atwhatcost]

There is no doubt you'd have better luck with a bullhorn on your local street corner outside a jack n the box. Don't forget your sign that says....the end is near.

Wait! Jack N the Box is still around? I haven't seen any in decades.

 

[Utah]

Did the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah worshiped God with musical instruments? No wonder why God decide to destroy it.

They were playing instruments, but not those kind of instruments. Doh!

 

[SeaBass]

SeaBass, I can point you to several individuals and couples who do not live in the sins of the flesh and neither do they believe in the gospel. They don't know the grace of God but have a moral lifestyle that is second to none. They strive to be this way and are very disciplined in the way they live. The way they live is right in their own eyes and admired as right in the eyes of others. The benefits they have and receive, because of how they live, are innumerable. They do not live ungodly lives as you would define ungodly. However, they are lost because they were born in sin and shapened in iniquity. They have not been cleansed from sin because they have not believed upon the Son that they might have life.

There are scores of Jews today that live a moral life according to the Torah, but reject the salvation that is in Christ and are lost despite their veneration for God. They refuse to come to God through his Son Jesus Christ but live godly lives according to the law. How shall we label them who live morally but do not believe to those who believe yet are troubled by sin? Shall the one who refuses grace and lives morally be esteemed above those who are troubled by sin but receive grace through our Lord Jesus Christ? Who are the ones that God chooses as candidates for his awesome grace, NOT MANY NOBLE!

Ungodly is not just living an immoral lifestyle but includes disobedience to God's commands, as in disobeying God's command to believe. Therefore all unbelievers are ungodly, whether they live morally or not. So there is no such thing as a saved believer that lives ungodly.

Men are not unconditionally born sinners, but are sinners for they have chosen to sin/transgress God's law.

 

[atwhatcost]

Salvation is PAST TENSE! Already finished, accomplished through the grace of God.

No one is saying to go and sin and revel. Every single person in this forum believes that because of the grace of God, we are obedient.

By constantly bringing up this straw man, you lose anyone who might be reading. We just shake our heads and walk away from these false accusations.

Ah, man! And I was so impressed with your subordinate clause dissecting in an earlier post. You kind of scared me, sounding all English teachery and all. (I'm not very good with grammar, so I easily impress when people can go all English teachery. lol)

But, "Salvation" is a noun, so not past tense. "Saved!" Past tense. (And it is always past tense when talking about those who are God's people, so you're really right in context, just not in execution for that brief moment.)

(And, I'm not coming down on you. Just figured I want you to remain all English teachery, so a gentle reminder from someone who still isn't quite sure what a subordinate clause is. lol)

As for the rest? Yup! Agreed!

 

[Utah]

Shame based religion is not from God.

Sirk, you need to copyright this and share it.

I'd like my shirt to be Black with Gold lettering. Size Large.

 

[SeaBass]

Would you like to assert that those in Sodom and Gomorrah were believers?

He said believers.

By the way, I don't believe there are saved ungodly people. Some backslide but God restores the relationship. Their nature is fundamentally altered at salvation and they will not be content living ungodly long-term.

It was not my point that those in Sodom and Gomorrah were believers, but Peter said they are examples unto those (anyone) that lives ungodly. What happened to those in Sodom and Gomorrah will happen to ANYONE that lives ungodly as they did. Paul said as much in 1 Cor 10:1-12 giving examples of those that fell then warning the Christians at Corinth to take heed lest that fall after the examples of others that fell.

You are correct that some backslide but God will CONDITIONALLY restore the relationship if the backslider CONDITIONALLY repents. If he remains impenitent he will perish, Lk 13:3,5; Rom 2:4,5.

 

[Gr8grace]

The best sure-fired way to go to hell is to break out guitars and play How great Thou Art in worship service. That may be the dumbest thing I've ever written in my life.

Oh no, they not only go to the LoF, they are in the deepest recesses of the pit and it is less tolerable for them. And The devil plays his guitar out of tune for them forever and ever and ever.

 

[atwhatcost]

Pssst, Jason? Sirk asked you a question. Since I'm like him, I'd like to know too.

I know Him and He knows me......but I am incapable of loving God with ALL my heart at ALL times. Does that mean I'm going to hell Jason?

 

[SeaBass]

The best sure-fired way to go to hell is to break out guitars and play How great Thou Art in worship service. That may be the dumbest thing I've ever written in my life.

The fact is the over-whelming majority have rejected the bible for man-made teachings and that is why you have all religious groups that are full division and contradiction......which the bible consistenlty condemns.

Psa 127:1 "Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain."

Mt 15:13 "But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up."

Eph 4:4,5 "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,"

Anything not of that one body, one faith was built in vain and will be rooted up.

 

[Rosesrock]

Pssst, Jason? Sirk asked you a question. Since I'm like him, I'd like to know too.

Inquiring mins