Eternal torment VS Annihilation

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UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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Not in question. Already addressed:

Job_31:3 Is not destruction to the wicked? and a strange punishment to the workers of iniquity?

Deu_7:23 But the LORD thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them with a mighty destruction, until they be destroyed.

Job_31:12 For it is a fire that consumeth to destruction, and would root out all mine increase.
Let's take the first one as an example:


Job 31:1-4 1 “I have made a covenant with my eyes;
how then could I gaze at a virgin?
2 What would be my portion from God above
and my heritage from the Almighty on high?
3 Is not calamity for the unrighteous,
and disaster for the workers of iniquity?
4 Does not he see my ways
and number all my steps?
(ESV Strong's)

You have selected a translation that suits your presuppositions. Did you do that intentionally?
Then you are positively saying that God (who is giver of all life and breath) sustains the wicked sinner and sin through all eternity by continuous miracle. It logically follows. You just stated that blasphemy continues into eternity. Blasphemy takes place with the voice and mouth, proceeding from the heart/mind (out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh).

Nah_1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

You do not seem to acknowledge the words "utter end".

Psa_104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

You do not seem to understand so simple a phrase and words therein of "let the wicked be no more."

Eze_26:21 I will make thee a terror, and thou shalt be no more: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze_28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

You do not seem to understand the English of "never shalt thou be any more", especially speaking to satan (his kingdom), and all those (branches) in him (root).

Dan 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Rev_20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

You do not seem to grasp the plainest statements of "no place for them", and "no place was found for them".

How much mental gymnastics must be done to insert into the words a definition not found in all of scripture?

Are you understanding the context of each of those verses that you are referring to? For instance, are those verses specific to the final judgment, or are they talking about the end of the earthly existence of the enemies of God?

Nahum 1:9 9 What do you plot against the Lord?
He will make a complete end;
trouble will not rise up a second time.
(ESV Strong's)

False doctrine is often taught by referring to verses without understanding their context. For instance, Nah 1:9 you are referring to relates to the Assyrians and the end of their earthly existence. Earthly existence does not equate to eternal existence.

You're also quoting from a translation that suits your presuppositions.

I am not going to sift through all of your references to help you understand this.

However, it would be interesting to know if you also hold the position of soul-sleep and whether you believe that man has a non-physical component. Does he have an immortal soul?
 
Aug 21, 2019
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Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Where does the "lake of fire" exist according to the same chapter?

Does it exist there eternally, yes or no, according to the context?
 
Aug 21, 2019
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You have selected a translation that suits your presuppositions.
I quoted from God's inspired and preserved words in English (Psalms 12:6-7). You are the one arguing translation, not I. God's word defines itself line upon line (Isaiah 28:10,13). You are the one doing what you claimed I did.
 
Aug 21, 2019
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Does he have an immortal soul?
Of course not.

Job_4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Notice the contrast with the Creator and creature.

1Ti_6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Again, 'immortal soul/spirit' theology is dualistic neo platonic heresy, it is the heart of paganism, argued from teleology (according to Romanism), as all the pagan heathen religions teach.

Mankind is made of 2 things, which when combined bring about the whole (3rd):

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

What was man formed of?

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

What did the serpent intimate:

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Thus was born 'immortal soul' theology.

Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Rev_16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
 

Roughsoul1991

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Sep 17, 2016
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If dissenters really want peace, they shouldn't bring the topics up. Otherwise, what do you expect other Christians to do? Listen to them promoting their watered-down and distorted theology?

The reality is that those people don't want peace..they want to convert others to unorthodox, minority views.
Matthew 5:9 New International Version (NIV)
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.

Of course we should stand for truth. I will hold that line dealing with any issue of soul salvation. But topics like this or how old is the earth or how much water to use in baptism is all just a waste of time, creates unnecessary divisions and I for one am not so arrogant to believe I have all the answers.

Your opponents say the same of you. They also think your distorting this topic. Are you? I dont think so. Your just sharing your perspective. But honestly either view wouldn't change anything. Either view Hell exists and is still a forever punishment. Regardless if the soul is alive or dead.

This is the small issues when really issues of salvation should be focused on.
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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I’m sorry but you are very arrogant and ignorant. If anything traditionalist use creative interpretations to support eternal torment. There are only two scriptures in the entire bible that even could be used for eternal torment. Revelation 14:11 which keeps getting spammed here out of context doesn’t even mention the lake of fire. In fact in verse 10 it speaks of those who receive the mark are to be tormented in the presence of the lamb and the holy angels. So Jesus and the angels are just watching this forever? Also if all are destined to be tormented forever than what would it matter if they worshiped the best or not? Also in the context it only says the smoke of their torment rises forever, not their actual torment. The Old Testament uses the same language but it doesn’t literally mean smoke goes up forever but symbolism for destruction. Isaiah 34:10 is a perfect example of that. So the majority here are making their arguments from the most symbolic book in the Bible and are taking it at face value wooden literally. I’m sorry but also the lost prior that tries to make destruction mean ruination is a farce. The poster took a bias source that believes in ECT and used a synonym for destruction totally ignoring all context. Matthew 2:13 says Herod sought to destroy Jesus, did he simply want to ruin him? No in other translations he sought to kill him. Matthew 10:28 says not to fear him who can kill the body but not the soul, but to fear him who can destroy both body and soul in hell. The context is killing. 2 Peter 2:6 and Jude 1:7 both show sodom and Gomorrah as an example of what will happen to the lost. It wasn’t eternal torment. Also even ones to hold literally to revelation 20:10 the beast isn’t a literal beast, also if the second death is eternal conscious torment then when death is no more wouldn’t Ect be undone? I’m just stating all of this to give y’all something to think about. The great scholar John Stott was a conditionalist and the great scholar Preston sprinkle who co authored erasing hell became a conditionalist after all of his research. So please y’all get off your high horses with the idea that this is heretical and fear mongering. It’s more scriptural than eternal conscious torment is by far. Eternal punishment doesn’t mean eternal torment, punishment can be anything including the death penalty. Unquenchable fire only means it can not be put out. Eternal fire many times only means it’s source is eternal not that the fire never ceases after destruction. Also last thing the scripture about their worm shall not die is Isaiah 66:24 and in the context is speaking only of dead bodies.
I would like to set this in the right perspective.

1st. What does it matter? Hell exists either way and Hell is no place any right thinking person should want to go even though everyone who ends up in Hell chose it.

2nd. Again either way God is just in his punishment. If God is all just and He is then so are His punishments. He is the absolute moral example. We get morality from observing who God is and we are created in His image giving us a sense of God through the moral code, moral law written within us.

Making God the only one to judge anything done outside the boundaries of morality. So when God judges, he is absolutely just, fair and could never be unjust due to He is also merciful as explained.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

By the time God judges all of mankind, none will without excuse.

3rd. Just for the sake of debate. Good arguments have been made for both views.

One says this:

Matthew 25:46 New International Version (NIV)
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


While another says this:

Revelation 20:12-14 New International Version (NIV)
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

A good strategy when reading scripture is the And Or method as in both scripture build on each other. In which could possibly mean the second death is soul death and this is a eternal punishment.

Either way this is one of those topics that will be forever debated and really makes no difference in the end.
Greetings ContextIsKing,

Just fyi, eternal punishment and the lake of fire/second death are the same, i.e. eternal punishment will take place in the lake of fire, so there is no difference between the two. I would also add everlasting fire. They are all referring to the same.

The scripture that you used above in fact demonstrates conscious existence for both the righteous and the wicked.

"“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

The word "aionios" translated as "eternal" is used to describe the state of both the wicked and the righteous and therefore must retain the same meaning.

Since we know that eternal life is never ending, conscious existence in the kingdom of God, then eternal punishment must also be never ending, conscious existence in separation from God in the lake of fire. Whatever you interpret for one must mean the same for the other. And I know that eternal life is never ending.

The issue is that, we continue to have many people at all levels committing suicide and that to be free of their troubles, whether physical or mental. The only reason that they would do this, is because they believe that they will become nonexistent at the time of death. Therefore, if God's punishment was to make people nonexistent in the lake of fire, then God would be giving them exacting what they wanted in the first place. And I'm sure that if that was the punishment, many unbelievers would be ok with that. However, when one understands that once the body dies and the spirit exists forever and that God's punishment is forever, then I'm pretty sure that no one would be at ease with that. In that case they wouldn't be escaping from anything, which is the purpose for suicide.

Based on combined scripture, Life and death are both states of eternal existence, which is based upon one's relationship with God.

Life = Eternal, conscious existence in the kingdom of God

Death = Eternal, conscious existence in separation from God in everlasting fire
 

TheLearner

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Jan 14, 2019
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Matthew 25:46 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.”

KOLASIS (2851)

Punishment (BAGD, Moulton & Milligan, TDNT, Vine)

Correction, punishment, penalty (Thayer)

Chastisement, correction, punishment (LS).

To punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering (Louw & Nida)

Moulton & Milligan, BAGD, and Thayer list dozens of occurrences of KOLASIS in late classical and early Christian documents, and cite "punishment" as the proper translation in each case. There are no other meanings listed for KOLASIS in any of these lexicons. Here is just one example from Moulton and Milligan: "for the evil doers among men receive their reward not among the living only, but also await punishment (KOLASIN) and much torment" (Oxyrhynchus Papyrus 840).



AIÔNIOS (166)

Without end (BAGD)

Without end, never to cease, everlasting (Thayer)

Eternal (TDNT, Louw & Nida)

In the vernacular as in the classical Greek (see Grimm-Thayer), it never loses the sense of perpetuus (Moulton & Milligan)

Vine suggests that AIÔNIOS may mean either eternal or "duration...undefined but not endless." However, the verses he cites in support of the latter definition (Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2) all refer to past time, not the future. BAGD and Thayer both define AIÔNIOS in these verses as "without beginning." Vine assigns the "eternal" meaning to AIÔNIOS in Matthew 25:46 - no doubt because whenever AIÔNIOS is combined with ZÔÊ ("life") in the Greek New Testament, it always means "eternal." Thus, if the second occurrence of AIÔNIOS in this verse means "eternal," it seems reasonable to accept the same meaning in the first usage, particularly given the parallel construction.

In conclusion, the lexical evidence is very strong that "eternal punishment" is the correct translation of KOLASIN AIÔNION in this verse. Thus, we may confidently conclude that Jesus taught that the unrighteous would be consigned to punishment everlasting, while those who call upon Him as their only Lord and Savior, will receive life everlasting.

...

Punish (BAGD) - This lexicon lists dozens of examples from literature contemporary with the NT and lists "punish" as the only meaning for kolazw in this time period.
http://www.forananswer.org/Matthew/Mt25_46.htm

Limit one you limit the other.
 

TheLearner

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Jan 14, 2019
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definition of death

James 2:26 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
26 A person’s body that does not have a spirit is dead. It is the same with faith—faith that does nothing is dead!
 

Roughsoul1991

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Sep 17, 2016
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Greetings ContextIsKing,

Just fyi, eternal punishment and the lake of fire/second death are the same, i.e. eternal punishment will take place in the lake of fire, so there is no difference between the two. I would also add everlasting fire. They are all referring to the same.

The scripture that you used above in fact demonstrates conscious existence for both the righteous and the wicked.

"“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

The word "aionios" translated as "eternal" is used to describe the state of both the wicked and the righteous and therefore must retain the same meaning.

Since we know that eternal life is never ending, conscious existence in the kingdom of God, then eternal punishment must also be never ending, conscious existence in separation from God in the lake of fire. Whatever you interpret for one must mean the same for the other. And I know that eternal life is never ending.

The issue is that, we continue to have many people at all levels committing suicide and that to be free of their troubles, whether physical or mental. The only reason that they would do this, is because they believe that they will become nonexistent at the time of death. Therefore, if God's punishment was to make people nonexistent in the lake of fire, then God would be giving them exacting what they wanted in the first place. And I'm sure that if that was the punishment, many unbelievers would be ok with that. However, when one understands that once the body dies and the spirit exists forever and that God's punishment is forever, then I'm pretty sure that no one would be at ease with that. In that case they wouldn't be escaping from anything, which is the purpose for suicide.

Based on combined scripture, Life and death are both states of eternal existence, which is based upon one's relationship with God.

Life = Eternal, conscious existence in the kingdom of God

Death = Eternal, conscious existence in separation from God in everlasting fire
Good argument but still isnt worth dividing over.

"The only reason that they would do this, is because they believe that they will become nonexistent at the time of death. "

Definitely not the only reason. If you study psychology there are many reasons and usually most of them are not thinking ahead but in the moment and the emotion. Many suicides are spontaneously committed due to a burst of emotions like anger, depression, or hopelessness.
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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Good argument but still isnt worth dividing over.

"The only reason that they would do this, is because they believe that they will become nonexistent at the time of death. "

Definitely not the only reason. If you study psychology there are many reasons and usually most of them are not thinking ahead but in the moment and the emotion. Many suicides are spontaneously committed due to a burst of emotions like anger, depression, or hopelessness.
I didn't say that it was the only reason, you assumed that. My point is that, if people truthfully believed that they were going to be punished for eternity in separation from God in eternal fire, no one would be committing suicide. And speaking of "emotion" that is why I typed the words "physical or mental." While it is true that some suicides are spontaneous, that is only part of it. Many believe that they are escaping from their troubles in life and the teaching of annihilation as God's punishment can support that.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Matthew 5:9 New International Version (NIV)
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.

Of course we should stand for truth. I will hold that line dealing with any issue of soul salvation. But topics like this or how old is the earth or how much water to use in baptism is all just a waste of time, creates unnecessary divisions and I for one am not so arrogant to believe I have all the answers.

Your opponents say the same of you. They also think your distorting this topic. Are you? I dont think so. Your just sharing your perspective. But honestly either view wouldn't change anything. Either view Hell exists and is still a forever punishment. Regardless if the soul is alive or dead.

This is the small issues when really issues of salvation should be focused on.

To be honest, I don't care what people think about me :)

Maybe when I was a wet-nosed puppy, I cared..now I am old and grey and if they have issues with my views, so what?
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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Are you understanding the context of each of those verses that you are referring to? For instance, are those verses specific to the final judgment, or are they talking about the end of the earthly existence of the enemies of God?
Nahum 1:9 9 What do you plot against the Lord?
He will make a complete end;
trouble will not rise up a second time.
(ESV Strong's)
False doctrine is often taught by referring to verses without understanding their context. For instance, Nah 1:9 you are referring to relates to the Assyrians and the end of their earthly existence. Earthly existence does not equate to eternal existence.
You're also quoting from a translation that suits your presuppositions.
I am not going to sift through all of your references to help you understand this.
Yep. (y) This was the point I had been meaning to come back on here and make, but time got away from me and I didn't get the chance (… though I have made this point in past posts, addressing this same point another poster or posters were endeavoring to make, on this subject).
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Yep. (y) This was the point I had been meaning to come back on here and make, but time got away from me and I didn't get the chance (… though I have made this point in past posts, addressing this same point another poster or posters were endeavoring to make, on this subject).
Right..if one carefully reviews the Scriptures they are using, it will betray a fundamental misunderstanding of the context in some way. I was fooled by the same type of reasoning as a young member of a group that believed in annihilationism.

If I could convince folks to do one thing, it would be to buy the NIV Zondervan Biblical Theology Study Bible, edited by DA Carson, and read it through including the notes. This study bible is an education in itself. I know some don't like the NIV but they could read the notes alone with another text such as the NASB or ESV. It is hands-down the best study bible I have read.

Anyways, the problem relates to selective quoting of verses without understanding the context, and switching between versions as it suits your presupposition. The Bible is meant to be read in context, not hopscotching through it and ignoring context.

And, if someone thinks they have come along and revealed "new truth" that the church has lost, I view this prideful attitude with suspicion. Church history does carry some weight, and we should consider it, especially since the Reformation. I am not saying that it is impossible, but highly improbable that new truth has surfaced. Every insight I've had, I have been able to verify it through solid Christian forefathers through history and I realized I wasn't the only one that understood this. Additionally, every kooky belief I've had (mostly due to being taught it), I've found in church history in some variation. That's why I think it's important to study church history.
 

garee

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Just fyi, eternal punishment and the lake of fire/second death are the same, i.e. eternal punishment will take place in the lake of fire, so there is no difference between the two. I would also add everlasting fire. They are all referring to the same.
By literalizing you have taken away the difference. The unbeliever are dead in his trespass and sin without hope and God in this world .

The Holy Spirit according to John 3 :18 inform us the un believer(no faith) has already been judged .Not given the faith to believe. The wrath of God being revealed . No greater tribulation . There will not be another judgment of the unbeliever. The death is in respect to the whole creation not just what the eyes see.

People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. But people who do not believe are already judged, "because they have not believed in God’s only Son. John 3:18

The scripture that you used above in fact demonstrates conscious existence for both the righteous and the wicked.

"“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
The righteous will not face another judgment (no condemnation in Christ) .They have been forgiven of their whole sin . Death in respect to the letter of book of the law is that which will be thrown into the lake of fire never to rise and condemn another whole creation.

The word "aionios" translated as "eternal" is used to describe the state of both the wicked and the righteous and therefore must retain the same meaning.

Since we know that eternal life is never ending, conscious existence in the kingdom of God, then eternal punishment must also be never ending, conscious existence in separation from God in the lake of fire. Whatever you interpret for one must mean the same for the other. And I know that eternal life is never ending.
The Bible makes no such transition . One end the other continues. God is not merciless.

Eternal death is simply defining those who will not rise to new life and receive a new body . Not a scare tactic to scare the hell out a person .Wrong kind of fear.

The temporal body will return to the dust and their temporal spirt to God who gave it subject to the letter of the law.
 

Roughsoul1991

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To be honest, I don't care what people think about me :)

Maybe when I was a wet-nosed puppy, I cared..now I am old and grey and if they have issues with my views, so what?
As they say we can not change others but we can change ourselves. When I was younger I would debate every issue and opposing views I felt was lies or perversion of the Word.

Over time I became more humble and gracious in the right to conscience dealing with issues that doesn't attack the core beliefs like Jesus as Savior, only way, the Bible is truth and God breathed, or scripture on sins doesn't change.

Paul spoke to us using the example of days of worship or food to judge ourselves and be very cautious when if what we are about to say is truly a matter of great importance.



Romans 14 New International Version (NIV)

14 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a]? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”[b]
12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.

22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.[c]
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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As they say we can not change others but we can change ourselves. When I was younger I would debate every issue and opposing views I felt was lies or perversion of the Word.

Over time I became more humble and gracious in the right to conscience dealing with issues that doesn't attack the core beliefs like Jesus as Savior, only way, the Bible is truth and God breathed, or scripture on sins doesn't change.

Paul spoke to us using the example of days of worship or food to judge ourselves and be very cautious when if what we are about to say is truly a matter of great importance.



Romans 14 New International Version (NIV)

14 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a]? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”[b]
12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.

22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.[c]

In principle, I agree that there are differences of opinion between true believers. However, in many cases, the opponent is attempting to convince the person that the entire system of Christianity is in error, and they are the ones with the true faith. Therefore, the opponent must be opposed.

As I have mentioned, I belonged to a cultic group with such a mentality. Annihilationism was only one step amongst the pathe of convincing the person that Christianity is in error, and they are teaching the true faith.

John Stott and some others do not have this agenda, but many cultists do, and they must be guarded against.

Additionally, those who hold the annihilationist view are viewing Scripture in a very superficial sense. It seems reasonable at a superficial level but it is in error when deeper exegesis is engaged.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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If you are interpreting annihilation as one ceasing to exist, the answer is a resounding, no.
The bible is clear.
Eternal torment.

Yes eternal never to rise to new spirit life. Hell is the living suffering we suffer daily . The wrath of God revealed from heaven .In dying death occurs.

Psalm 104:29 When you turn away from them, they become frightened. When you take away their breath, they die, and their bodies return to the dust.

Ecclesiastes 12:6-8 Remember your Creator while you are young, before the silver rope snaps and the golden bowl is crushed
like a jar broken at the well,like a stone cover on a well that breaks and falls in. Your body came from the earth. And when you die, it will return to the earth. But your
spirit came from God, and when you die, it will return to him.

No partial payment... that would represent a merciless God.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,445
999
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In principle, I agree that there are differences of opinion between true believers. However, in many cases, the opponent is attempting to convince the person that the entire system of In principle, I agree that there are differences of opinion between true believers. However, in many cases, the opponent is attempting to convince the person that the entire system of Christianity is in error, and they are the ones with the true faith. Therefore, the opponent must be opposed. is in error, and they are the ones with the true faith. Therefore, the opponent must be opposed.

I think you meant the entire system of private interpretations . Not Christianity is in error .

2 Peter 1:20 EVR Most important of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in the Scriptures comes from the prophet’s own understanding.

2 Peter 1:20 KJV Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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I didn't say that it was the only reason, you assumed that. My point is that, if people truthfully believed that they were going to be punished for eternity in separation from God in eternal fire, no one would be committing suicide. And speaking of "emotion" that is why I typed the words "physical or mental." While it is true that some suicides are spontaneous, that is only part of it. Many believe that they are escaping from their troubles in life and the teaching of annihilation as God's punishment can support that.
I quoted your post it said "The only reason that they would do this, is because they believe that they will become nonexistent at the time of death."


You said the only reason but that's okay maybe you wasn't being exact but anyways.

Quote from you:

"if people truthfully believed that they were going to be punished for eternity in separation from God in eternal fire, no one would be committing suicide"

That is the struggle in all individuals. If people truly believed in God who judges the soul then all would be saved. But this isnt a reality and regardless why would suicide lead you to Hell?

Isnt suicide often the side affect of mental health problems?

The only thing that leads someone to Hell is disbelief in the Son as Savior.

Quote:

"Many believe that they are escaping from their troubles in life and the teaching of annihilation as God's punishment can support that."

Can or could support that because either we are talking verifiable facts or opinions?

Neither view to me is harmful. Doesn't matter if annihilation is true and someone does suicide because of that, so what? If it true then there's nothing we can do about it. There has been stories where homosexuals suicided because they felt they couldn't live up to the Lords standard.

Technically if I understand the annihilation doctrine. The suicider who didn't believe in Christ will still experience Hell until the end of time. So technically they would still need to fear hell using your argument.