Evolution and Hebrews 11:3
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True...
For although they knew God, they did not honour him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
(Rom 1:21-23)
For although they knew God, they did not honour him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
(Rom 1:21-23)
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Yes sir! In just the last several months, it's as if God has opened my eyes and understanding when reading His Word. Not saying everything is understood and needs no further input/guidance; just that it is clearer, and find myself taking longer to read. Sometimes will read a verse or passage 10 times or so, and at least 2 or 3 times otherwise.
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I found this statement by him at ICR, although it dates back to 1991.
Now when you talk about animals eating one another, we tend to think of that as bad. But what does it tell us in Romans 5:12 - what Adam introduced was not death generally, but death through sin. The only animals that can experience death through sin are sinners, human beings. We're the only ones that the Bible labels as sinners, the animals are not part of that. The other animals, as Ecclesiastes points out, when they die, they go to dust....
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So he is basically arguing that there was death before the fall for animals and that this was not bad because it was not from sin.
It would seem that micro evolution is dependent death and so to hold to that process of creation, death would have had to preceded the fall?
Now when you talk about animals eating one another, we tend to think of that as bad. But what does it tell us in Romans 5:12 - what Adam introduced was not death generally, but death through sin. The only animals that can experience death through sin are sinners, human beings. We're the only ones that the Bible labels as sinners, the animals are not part of that. The other animals, as Ecclesiastes points out, when they die, they go to dust....
Source
So he is basically arguing that there was death before the fall for animals and that this was not bad because it was not from sin.
It would seem that micro evolution is dependent death and so to hold to that process of creation, death would have had to preceded the fall?
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Not really...
in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. (Rom 8:20-22)
No, as we see even the creation was subject to death, not of its own accord but due to Adam's sin.
in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. (Rom 8:20-22)
No, as we see even the creation was subject to death, not of its own accord but due to Adam's sin.
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the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
(Ecclesiastes 12:7)
this is speaking of both man and beast, no differentiation. in fact, back in chapter 3 - I said to myself concerning the sons of men, “God has surely tested them in order for them to see that they are but beasts.” For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity. All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust. Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?
(Ecclesiastes 3:18-21)
it is unequivocally stated that there is no difference - both man and creature are dust and return to it. verse 21 is often abused; it isn't a statement of 'fact' that animals spirits go down in contrast with that of men goes up - it is a rhetorical question, saying "who knows?" and taken with the preceding statements the intent is abundantly clear; that we share the same fate as every creature: how do you know that this man's spirit goes up any more than you know that the spirit of a cow does? or that the spirit of this man goes down? both are dust; both return to dust. who knows? God knows. put that together with chapter 12 "the conclusion of the matter" - the dust returns to the dust from which it came, and the spirit returns to the Lord who gave it also ((in re: Genesis 2:7, 2:19 etc - exactly the same word for man and for beast alike: living soul))
so --
if i tug on this 'Ecclesiastes string' ((because he certainly has that wrong)), does this man's whole argument unravel?
if death existed in the earth before sin for animals, the scripture calls men and beasts no different, so death also existed for Adam. he was decaying anyway, and i suppose in this man's view, he's awful lucky the lion, the tiger or the bear didn't eat him when he named them each. it further implies that when God said to Adam, from dust he was taken, and to dust he will return, this isn't judgement at all; it's a casual statement of fact about the state Adam was already in whether he sinned or not.
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v. 19 -- "they all have the same breath"
v. 21 -- "the breath of man .. the breath of the beast"
same word. in all 3 instances. ruach = wind, breath, spirit
doesn't this tell us something about Genesis 1-2?
how did God form all the living souls? out of dust, and then breathed the breath of life into them.
man, beast: no different. same dust, same breath. so now why would God give animals death, who know no sin?
as Crossnote points out, they are subjected to vanity not of their own will, and in expectation of being set free in the same glory that is even our own hope. that points to the victory of Christ over sin and death, which points to sin and death entering the world through Adam.
i see this man's argument presupposing a differentiation between himself and hedgehogs that isn't quite scriptural
v. 21 -- "the breath of man .. the breath of the beast"
same word. in all 3 instances. ruach = wind, breath, spirit
doesn't this tell us something about Genesis 1-2?
how did God form all the living souls? out of dust, and then breathed the breath of life into them.
man, beast: no different. same dust, same breath. so now why would God give animals death, who know no sin?
as Crossnote points out, they are subjected to vanity not of their own will, and in expectation of being set free in the same glory that is even our own hope. that points to the victory of Christ over sin and death, which points to sin and death entering the world through Adam.
i see this man's argument presupposing a differentiation between himself and hedgehogs that isn't quite scriptural
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