Faith Alone?

plaintalk · Dec 21, 2015

To: eternally- gratefull, #156
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; [SUP]9 [/SUP]not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Eph. 2: 8- 10)

You say, “We are saved by the means of grace through faith alone in the work of God.” Response: With all due respect, IMO you are misrepresenting the passage as the passage does not use the term “faith alone.” Nor is “faith alone” a necessary inference since according to the Scriptures there are several factors and works that are identified as leading to salvation, eternal life and justification, other than by faith, for example: calling on the name of the Lord (Acts 2: 21), repentance (2 Cor. 7: 10), baptism (Mark 16: 15, 16) confessing Christ before men (Rom. 10: 10) obedience (Heb. 5: 9), hope (Rom. 8: 24) love (1 John 5: 14). Abraham was justified by his obedience, in conjunction with faith, in offering up his son. (James 2: 21- 24) Salvation and justification are not by works of the law (Gal. 2: 16) nor by deed which we have been done in righteousness, works of merit. (Titus 3: 5)

You say, “Once we repent and come to that faith and say yes lord, I want your salvation.” Response: First, in the first conversion account, Acts 2, the 3,000 clearly were commanded to repent after they had believed and were pierced to the heart. This account includes all, Jew and Gentile, as many as the Lord shall call to himself. (Acts 2: 37-39) Second, receiving faith is not by our own volition: it is a work of God (John 6: 29; Acts 16: 14), it is a gift (Rom. 12: 3), it is by grace (Acts 18:27). God gives grace to the humble, those that deny themselves. God opens the heart of man to respond in faith, love and obedience.

You say, “God makes us a new creature, who is able to do good works..(vs 10)” Response: True, those who are in Christ are new creatures (2 Cor. 5: 17) and we are baptized into Christ. (Rom. 6: 3) and being in Christ through baptism is definitely a work of God. (1 Cor. 1: 30)

You say, “but if salvation does not occur, because we lack faith, all our works is as bloody rags, and will be rejected by God on judgment day.” Response: it is totally inconsistent to claim to have faith by calling Jesus, Lord, and not obey. (Matt. 7: 21) On the other hand many will claim Jesus as Lord, on the basis of works of merit which they have performed. Sadly, these will be rejected. God bless.

“Matthew 7:23”
“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”

eternally-gratefull · Dec 21, 2015

plaintalk said:

With all do respect. the passage says faith not works.

faith minus anything is the same as saying faith alone. If anything other that faith was required. Paul would have been misleading people by not saying, we are saved by grace through faith plus (whatever else is required)

So we are not saved by works of merit, But we must work to merit salvation..

That makes no sense.

This makes no sense, You said I was wrong, by posted something which s in agreement with what I said.

Yes, But rom 6 is not water baptism, it is actually a work of God baptizing us into Christ.

Again we agree. so I do not get what your saying

plaintalk · Dec 21, 2015

To GregoryC, #28 According to the Scriptures we enter into Christ by faith through baptism. God bless.
"Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?" (Rom. 6: 3) NASB
"For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourself with Christ." (Gal. 3: 26, 27) NASB

seed_time_harvest · Dec 21, 2015

Sigh........

mailmandan · Dec 22, 2015

eternally-gratefull said:

Amen brother! The Bible clearly teaches in Ephesians 2:8 that we are saved through faith, not faith and baptism or faith and works. Actually, the Bible clearly teaches in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 5:1; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Ephesians 2:8; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..). You don't need to add the word "alone" next to belief/faith in each of these passages to figure out that the words belief/faith "stand alone" in these many many passages of scripture in connection with receiving salvation. Do these passages say faith "plus something else?" NO! So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST alone.

Not saved by works of merit but we must work to merit salvation is an oxymoron. It's obvious that plain talk is confused about works. He also confuses water baptism with Spirit baptism.

Unfortunately, many will claim Jesus as Lord on the basis of works of merit which they performed, as we see in Matthew 7:22. Sadly, these will be rejected and it's because Jesus NEVER knew them. These many people in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in THEIR works to save them and NOT in CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was really disobedience. This is why Jesus referred to them as WORKERS OF INIQUITY/LAWLESSNESS! They were self righteous. They said, "Lord, Lord," but did not do His WILL (vs. 21) "For my Father's WILL is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:40) There are many people who believe they will be saved based on their works, but are deceived.

mailmandan · Dec 22, 2015

seed_time_harvest said:

Sigh indeed!

You will also sigh when you read posts #449 and #450, along with the rest of his mixed up posts that teach salvation by "water and works, instead of by grace through faith," on this thread. - Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,"

eternally-gratefull · Dec 22, 2015

mailmandan said:

The only passage which evens mentions believe plus baptism is a passage that is questionable as true scripture to begin with.

It just goes to the worldly fleshy attitude that I must do something myself. Pride is a deep and dangerous thing, and pride will not allow us to get out of Gods way, and save us, It says we must help.

The penalty of sin is death, Not baptism, Not good works, Not church membership, Tithing, Feeding the poor. or ny other work..

Only Death can redeem us from sin, The works are great (when done our of love after we have been born again, and given Gods love to appreciate what those things really mean) but they will save no one..

Paul made it clear.

Titus 3: 5 Not by works of righteousness (good deeds) which we have done, but BY HIS MERCY, HE SAVED US..

we can not save ourselves. It demands Gods mercy, and Gods mercy alone.

It take alot of faith to trust yourself to a God you can not see, based on events you were not alive to witness.. Thats why few will enter in of that narrow Gate.

mailmandan · Dec 22, 2015

eternally-gratefull said:

Amen brother! That salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS is not hard to understand. It's just hard for "works salvationists" to ACCEPT. It is tragic that human PRIDE will not allow these people to come to Christ. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through FAITH.

eternally-gratefull · Dec 22, 2015

mailmandan said:

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith in things seen (works) is not faith,

Faith in an unseen God and unseen cross is what true faith is.

As Jesus ssaid, Great was Thomas for seeing yet believing, Greater yet is he who has not seen, yet still believes.

We are not great because we did all these wonderous works. We are great because we placed our hands and lives in an all powerful all loving God. Where HE GETS ALL THE GLORY!!

Praise God!

seed_time_harvest · Dec 22, 2015

GOD looks at the "heart" In John 3 when It comes to salvation,John 3:16 does not mention anything needing to be added to faith.

Thats why we say faith alone.

Of course GOD In CHRIST JESUS provided the grace and we have access to this grace through faith alone.
+++
John 3:14-18
King James Version(KJV)

14.And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15.That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16.For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17.For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18.He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

eternally-gratefull · Dec 22, 2015

seed_time_harvest said:

GOD looks at the "heart" In John 3 when It comes to salvation,John 3:16 does not mention anything needing to be added to faith.

Thats why we say faith alone.

Of course GOD In CHRIST JESUS provided the grace and we have access to this grace through faith alone.
+++
John 3:14-18
King James Version(KJV)

14.And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15.That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16.For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17.For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18.He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

such a clear picture, All people had to do was Trust God and look at the serpent lifted up, and they were saved.

All we have to do is trust God, and look to the lifted risen savior. and we will be saved.

Timothy552 · Dec 22, 2015

Wow-I'm glad I'm not a person seeking God and looking to this post for answers....it got pretty confusing in a hurry.

Read your Bibles! If you have a version you really don't understand, find one that you do. Then when you know better-do better. Read and do! Don't get bogged down on "the three levels of sanctification" and "have I reached all three levels" and what not. Read your Bible and let Gods word change you. It was intended to be a simple.

Hoffco · Dec 22, 2015

SOOO, What is the LOOKING to the pole worth???? I thought "faith alone" is enough. They had to COME to the POLE, LOOK on tyhe POLE ,in order to be saved. Works were involved.! The POINT I am making is: When you add one word to Faith, "alone" that works against GOD'S plan of salvation, You are in trouble. James says, "knowing a man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone." James 2:24. GOD, SAYS, NO ONE can be saved BY: "faith alone" . GOD says, DON"T say "ALONE", You add it, Your are wrong.! You are missing the POINT of Eph.2:10 "For we are HIS workmanship" ( after God makes our new nature, ie. born of God, we work, holy deeds for Jesus.) "created in Christ Jesus unto good works" Obviously, we are no longer the wicked sinners we were before conversion, NOW, we do good works. So Jesus, will not say to us, "depart from Me, you workers of Iniquity". Please notice, Miracle working don't not make one a GOOD person, with good works., only the New Birth makes us a GOOD persons with GOOD works, acceptable to GOD. I have to speak against the need of water baptism as required for initial salvation, it is not a part of the New birth experience. BUT is required as a part of our salvation experience. If one refuses to be baptized, it is not a good sign about their salvation experience. All we do for Jesus is a part of our salvation experience, SO, in a sense, we will not be saved with out our life for Christ; Because, if we deny God, God will deny us as His child. Yes, Peter was saved, and Judas was never saved.

seed_time_harvest · Dec 22, 2015

Hoffco said:

GOD looks at the heart.
Using your body to walk to the pole Is not what GOD needs to see although It would be a righteous work seen by men so that GOD can be glorified.

I know the word "alone" Is not In John 3:16 but I don't see anything else needed but faith.

Do you believe scripture should interpret and harmonize scripture?If so,then how does these scriptures I'm getting ready to post harmonize?

Romans 4:1-2
King James Version(KJV)

1.)What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2.For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
+++
James 2:21-24
King James Version(KJV)

21.)Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22.Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23.And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24.Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
+++

I agree.

plaintalk · Dec 23, 2015

To: eternally-grateful #162
IMO to properly understand Eph. 2: 8- 10 we must determine what is meant by “faith” and “works.” It seems to me that there are two possibilities in each case. “Faith” could mean (1) faith alone or (2) faith working in conjunction with other factors. IMO the second is the better interpretation because: (1) there is no passage in the entire Bible that states salvation is by grace through faith alone, (2) there is a verse that states justification is by works not by faith alone (James 2: 24) (3) the Scriptures identify several factors that lead to salvation; these include: calling on the name of the Lord (Acts 2: 21), repentance (2 Cor. 7: 10) , baptism in water in the name of Christ (1 Peter 3: 21; Mark 16: 15, 16) confessing Christ before men (Rom. 10: 10) and obedience (Heb. 5: 9) and hope (Rom 8: 24), (4) James speaks of this very thing, faith working with works (of faith) to perfect faith (James 2: 22), (5) faith without love, faith alone, is nothing (1 Cor. 13: 2), (6) faith without works of faith, by itself, is dead and useless (James 2: 17, 20) (7) the first conversion account (Acts 2: 37- 39) is an example of this very thing. The faith of the 3,000 was working with repentance and baptism in water in the name of Christ, commanded by Peter, to perfect their faith, (7) Paul says that meaningful faith works in love. (Gal. 5: 6)

Well how about “works”? The term could mean (1) any and all works or it could mean (2) works of the law and works of merit. IMO the second is the better choice because (1) several works that do save have been identified in the first paragraph, (2) works of the law and works of merit do not save (Gal. 2: 16; Titus 3: 5), (3) Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the kingdom of heaven, (4) Paul said that those who do not know God and obey the gospel await eternal destruction (2 Thess. 1: 8, 9) (5), John said that those who claim to know God but do not keep His commandments are liars (1 John 2: 4), (6) both faith and love are perfected by works of faith (James 2: 22; 1 John 2: 5), (7) works of faith and the obedience of faith (1 Thess. 1: 3; Rom. 1: 5) are by definition “of faith”; they are not our works, they are the works of God, they are gifts (Acts 11: 18), received by the grace of God (Rom. 2: 4).
The Scriptures teach that we are saved by grace, through faith, which works in love, not by faith alone. God bless.

plaintalk · Dec 24, 2015

To eternally- grateful, # 162
You say: “With all do respect. the passage says faith not works.” Response: The Scriptures speak of both works of faith (1 Thess. 1: 3) and works of the law or works of merit. (Gal. 2: 16; Titus 3: 5) The works that save are works of faith and they are by definition “of faith”. Therefore, IMO to be saved by a work of faith is to be saved by faith.
You say: “faith minus anything is the same as saying faith alone. If anything other that faith was required. Paul would have been misleading people by not saying, we are saved by grace through faith plus (whatever else is required)” Response: God has chosen to reveal His will through the narrative form, not as a law or systematic theology. We do not necessarily get the whole story at one site. For example Paul did not say anything about “calling on the name of the Lord” in the Ephesian letter but he did in the Roman letter. We are not saved “by grace through faith plus (whatever else is required),” we are saved by faith which works in love. The latter appropriately keeps the emphasis on faith. However faith without love is nothing and faith without works of faith is dead and useless.
You say: “So we are not saved by works of merit, But we must work to merit salvation..
That makes no sense. This makes no sense, You said I was wrong, by posted something which s in agreement with what I said.” Response: No, my friend, that is not what I am saying. I am saying we are not saved by works of merit, but we must do those things God has commanded in order to perfect our faith (James 2: 22) We are saved by a perfected faith and perfected love. Both are perfected by keeping His commandments (1 John 2: 5) and paradoxically we obey through faith (Heb. 11: 8) and love (John 14: 15). The parable of the unprofitable servant tells us that if we did all that God commanded we would still be an unprofitable servant; we have done only that which we should have done. (Luke 17: 10) God bless.

Hoffco · Dec 24, 2015

Rom.3:21-5:17 and the Book of James are NOT harmoning trues; They are contrasting trues. Each with its own story to tell Truth, truth is often parallel or contrasting. The book of James harmonizes with Rom.chps. 1,2,5:18= ch.8 Both passages tell of the powerful transformation of the New Birth,(Not Justification). The harmonizing true is in Romans 2:13 " It is not the hearers of the law who are justified ,but the Doers of the law who will be Justified." This harmonizes with James 2:24."Knowing that a man is justified by works aand not by Faith
ALONE."

Hoffco · Dec 24, 2015

The real problem is men are not subject to the Word of God; the most of us follow our church doctrines and NOT the Bible.

seed_time_harvest · Dec 24, 2015

Hoffco said:

Are you saying that Paul Is talking about salvation and James Is talking about sanctification or,or you saying that they are both talking about salvation?

Doesn't scripture interpret and harmonize scripture?

mailmandan · Dec 25, 2015

Hoffco said:

Romans 2:13 is often used by people works salvationists, including (Roman Catholics, Campbellites, Mormons, etc..) to say that we must keep the Law (along with faith in Jesus) to be saved, but this isn’t so. Paul was talking to the Jews (Romans 2:17) about their judging of the Gentiles and then points them to their own Law (standard of judgment) and hypocrisy and tells them that the doers of the Law are just before God (v. 13).

The standard they wanted to keep was the Law. Paul was telling them that they could be justified before God by keeping it. So, keep the Law. *Keep all of it, but if you don’t, you’re in trouble. It is the doers of the Law who are justified before God. He tells them that the Gentiles who didn't have the Law according to the knowledge of the Jews were instinctively keeping the Law (v. 14) and will be judged accordingly. How much more the Jews?

*Paul was showing the self-righteous Jews who judged the Gentiles that they were not able to keep a perfect standard. *They were hypocrites. *This is why Paul tells us in the very next chapter in Romans 3:28 that we are justified by faith apart from the works of the Law. *No one is able to keep a perfect standard of the Law. *If you fail even once (stumble in one point), then you become guilty of it all.

James 2:10, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” Galatians 3:10, “For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

The Jews (and anyone else) can be justified before God by keeping the Law, but he or she has to be 100% perfect. *A person can’t fail even once--ever. *But all have failed (Romans 3:23; 6:23), that is why we must be justified before God by faith (Romans 3:24-28, 4:2-6; 5:1).

James 2:24 is misinterpreted by works salvationists. In the first place, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith. *In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *Please listen closely - *James does not teach that we are saved by works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous" not accounted as righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

The harmony of Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous (Romans 3:24; 4:2-3; 5:1). James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. Man is saved through faith and not works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). *Please pay close attention - The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith "in Christ alone" conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

Faith Alone?

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