FAITH IS A WORK! The Deception of Eph 2:8-10
- Thread starter Skinski7
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
This response is very typical.
I notice that when I or anyone professes that one must forsake their sin before God will forgive them, people have a problem with that and will often come back and say "you are preaching works righteousness."
I wonder if people said that to Isaiah, Jeremiah, Paul, Peter, John and James?
If I tell people that Jesus said that we must "strive" to enter in at the strait gate, people respond "we are saved by grace and you are preaching works." Is that what they are going to tell Jesus at the judgment?
Was Jesus lying when He said we must strive, deny ourselves, dig deep, count the cost? Was Jesus being deceptive in some way?
Was Jesus lying or exaggerating when he said that we must strive to enter in at the strait gate because few will find it?
Was Jesus just playing around when He said MANY will cry out to Him "Lord Lord" and yet Jesus will reject them because they did not do the Father's will and were workers of iniquity.
It amazes me that lax attitude people have in regards to their souls. Jesus used the example of a pearl of great price and a treasure hid in a field and He said that the man sold everything he had to purchase that field. That sounds pretty expensive to me. That sounds pretty drastic to me.
I really do think that the way is narrow and I really do think few will find it. I actually believe Jesus.
The false teachers will try and convince people otherwise with their ear tickling words and easy salvation.
Today the Gospel is "confess, trust and receive" and it is all based on you being "born a sinner, the sin never stops, Jesus is your substitute and if you trust in that then it is all gravy."
People buy into that teaching even though they cannot find it anywhere in the Bible. They will cling to their out of context proof texts and close their eyes to everything Jesus said.
These people are fools because they are not doers of the word.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
What a tragedy.
Paul wrote this...
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Paul then went on to say...
1Ti 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
1Ti 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
You see it is godliness that is going to get people into the kingdom. You cannot enter the kingdom if you are living an ungodly life. In fact you can only be cleansed by the blood on the condition you are walking in the light.
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
That is why repentance is preached for the remission of sins.
Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
There is no way that someone can be walking in the light if they do not forsake their sin through repentance and a genuine conversion. It is so simple yet people will deny this clear teaching because they love their sin. They want God and sin. They are double minded vainly trying to serve two masters.
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
It is so clear that even a child could understand it.
Shroom... Are you seriously going to cling to verses like Rom 10:9 which you proof text totally out of context and ignore basically everything else the Bible says.
For the life of me I just do not understand that logic. Truly there are those that have eyes yet cannot see.
What a sad sad situation.
Not from you, Tommy, at least concerning salvation.
I seek it always, from God's Word.
Then please teach people how to get saved instead of preaching hellfire awaits them if they don't live without sin. People need to be taught not to sin, and how to live rightly, but salvation is not contingent on living rightly, it is contingent on accepting the savior from sin, Jesus Christ.
God bless.
I seek it always, from God's Word.
Then please teach people how to get saved instead of preaching hellfire awaits them if they don't live without sin. People need to be taught not to sin, and how to live rightly, but salvation is not contingent on living rightly, it is contingent on accepting the savior from sin, Jesus Christ.
God bless.
If that is true then please explain why the Bible says that salvation is contingent on living rightly?
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Act_10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Heb_12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Act_10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Heb_12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
Last edited:
C
Tommy, here's my take on the concept of 'Imputed Righteousness':
While imputed righteousness is indeed a biblical concept, many in the church including Lutherans, Calvinists and proponents of OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved), would teach you that imputed righteousness is a hypothetical righteousness, a righteousness that can not be seen or experienced in the life of a believer which allows one to be saved in their sins. Unfortunately, nothing could be further from the truth. By no means what so ever is, nor ever was, imputed righteous a license to sin (licentiousness). Imputed Righteousness is not some abstract concept that is open to interpretation nor can it be discerned by the vain imaginations of fallen men.
For one to truly understand imputed righteousness of Christ, one must first understand the source of Christ's own righteousness. After Marry was visited by an Angel which told her that she would be the one who would give birth to the Messiah, the Holy Spirit descended upon her and she became impregnated by the Holy Spirit. We often times fail to understand this process because we naturally think of procreation in terms of male and female, with the male providing the seed and the female providing the egg resulting in a life who's body / soul / spirit is completely independent from both the male and female. That was not the case when Marry became impregnated with Jesus. You see, the Holy Spirit did not provide the seed, the Holy Spirit Himself was the seed.
By all means was Jesus human in every way. He had a mind and a soul all of His own. He felt emotions and temptations as any human would. However, what made Jesus different is that he was born with a measure of the omnipresent Holy Spirit already inside of Him. He was spiritually connected to the Father in heaven from day one. Jesus was both 100% human and 100% divine simultaneously thus the indwelling Holy Spirit was the divine nature of God residing on the inside of Him. Thus it can be safely assumed that the righteousness of Christ is not a 'thing' but rather a 'who', the indwelling Holy Spirit.
There are several verses of scripture which name the Holy Spirit as the source of righteousness in the life of a believer:
Titus 3:4-6 "But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior ..."
Romans 14:17 "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit..."
Galatians 5:5 "For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope."
Upon salvation, every true believer receives a measure of the Holy Spirit, thus you do have access to the righteousness of Christ through the indwelling Holy spirit. When a Christian is born again, that same Spirit which resided in Jesus, who both taught and empowered Jesus to live out the will of the Father on here earth, now resides in you. Whether you realize it or not, you are Christ-like because you too are now spiritually connected to the Father in heaven just as Jesus was during his days here on earth. Scripture refers to Jesus as 'the first born of many brethren' and if you are indeed born again, you are one of the brethren. As a believer, you now have access to the same divine nature of God as Jesus had through the Holy Spirit.
2 Corinthians 5: 17 - "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new!"
Ezekiel 36:26 - "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh."
Romans 12:2 - "Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is — his good, pleasing and perfect will."
As believers, have access to each and every divine attribute of the Holy Spirit if we choose to abide in the Holy Spirit and not walk according to the flesh (Romans 8). We now have access to both spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 12, Hebrews 2:4) and spiritual fruit - which are the divine attributes / evidence of His indwelling presence: [i"]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit." (Gal. 5:22-24)[/i]
Throughout scripture the Holy Spirit is often referred to by other names such as the Spirit of God (Gen. 1:2, 1 John 4:2), Spirit of Wisdom (Eph. 1:17), Spirit of Knowledge (Isaiah 11:2), Spirit of Grace (Heb. 10:29), Spirit of Holiness (Rom. 1:4), Spirit of Obedience and Sanctification (1 Peter 1:2), the list goes on. That is why when the topic of imputed righteous is brought up, the Holy Spirit is the first thing that comes to mind for He is our access to all things promised to us as believers from God the Father. It is just as the Apostle Peter states:
2 Peter 1: 3-4 "His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires."
While imputed righteousness is indeed a biblical concept, many in the church including Lutherans, Calvinists and proponents of OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved), would teach you that imputed righteousness is a hypothetical righteousness, a righteousness that can not be seen or experienced in the life of a believer which allows one to be saved in their sins. Unfortunately, nothing could be further from the truth. By no means what so ever is, nor ever was, imputed righteous a license to sin (licentiousness). Imputed Righteousness is not some abstract concept that is open to interpretation nor can it be discerned by the vain imaginations of fallen men.
For one to truly understand imputed righteousness of Christ, one must first understand the source of Christ's own righteousness. After Marry was visited by an Angel which told her that she would be the one who would give birth to the Messiah, the Holy Spirit descended upon her and she became impregnated by the Holy Spirit. We often times fail to understand this process because we naturally think of procreation in terms of male and female, with the male providing the seed and the female providing the egg resulting in a life who's body / soul / spirit is completely independent from both the male and female. That was not the case when Marry became impregnated with Jesus. You see, the Holy Spirit did not provide the seed, the Holy Spirit Himself was the seed.
By all means was Jesus human in every way. He had a mind and a soul all of His own. He felt emotions and temptations as any human would. However, what made Jesus different is that he was born with a measure of the omnipresent Holy Spirit already inside of Him. He was spiritually connected to the Father in heaven from day one. Jesus was both 100% human and 100% divine simultaneously thus the indwelling Holy Spirit was the divine nature of God residing on the inside of Him. Thus it can be safely assumed that the righteousness of Christ is not a 'thing' but rather a 'who', the indwelling Holy Spirit.
There are several verses of scripture which name the Holy Spirit as the source of righteousness in the life of a believer:
Titus 3:4-6 "But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior ..."
Romans 14:17 "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit..."
Galatians 5:5 "For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope."
Upon salvation, every true believer receives a measure of the Holy Spirit, thus you do have access to the righteousness of Christ through the indwelling Holy spirit. When a Christian is born again, that same Spirit which resided in Jesus, who both taught and empowered Jesus to live out the will of the Father on here earth, now resides in you. Whether you realize it or not, you are Christ-like because you too are now spiritually connected to the Father in heaven just as Jesus was during his days here on earth. Scripture refers to Jesus as 'the first born of many brethren' and if you are indeed born again, you are one of the brethren. As a believer, you now have access to the same divine nature of God as Jesus had through the Holy Spirit.
2 Corinthians 5: 17 - "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new!"
Ezekiel 36:26 - "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh."
Romans 12:2 - "Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is — his good, pleasing and perfect will."
As believers, have access to each and every divine attribute of the Holy Spirit if we choose to abide in the Holy Spirit and not walk according to the flesh (Romans 8). We now have access to both spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 12, Hebrews 2:4) and spiritual fruit - which are the divine attributes / evidence of His indwelling presence: [i"]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit." (Gal. 5:22-24)[/i]
Throughout scripture the Holy Spirit is often referred to by other names such as the Spirit of God (Gen. 1:2, 1 John 4:2), Spirit of Wisdom (Eph. 1:17), Spirit of Knowledge (Isaiah 11:2), Spirit of Grace (Heb. 10:29), Spirit of Holiness (Rom. 1:4), Spirit of Obedience and Sanctification (1 Peter 1:2), the list goes on. That is why when the topic of imputed righteous is brought up, the Holy Spirit is the first thing that comes to mind for He is our access to all things promised to us as believers from God the Father. It is just as the Apostle Peter states:
2 Peter 1: 3-4 "His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires."
Last edited:
T
Eternal life is a gift, which God locks in. There are no works, what so ever, attached to that gift.
If there were, you would be working for yourself and never work for God. We are saved
"TO DO" good works. That is the only way a person can work for the Lord. In fact, if you
attach works to being saved, God will not accept what you do, because it will be selffish
self-motivated. He has taken care of you, from start to finish, so you can focus on working
for Him.
Works brings rewards. Works will never make anyone more Holy, or righteous, or less sinful,
that is all taken care of by God. Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with
me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
If there were, you would be working for yourself and never work for God. We are saved
"TO DO" good works. That is the only way a person can work for the Lord. In fact, if you
attach works to being saved, God will not accept what you do, because it will be selffish
self-motivated. He has taken care of you, from start to finish, so you can focus on working
for Him.
Works brings rewards. Works will never make anyone more Holy, or righteous, or less sinful,
that is all taken care of by God. Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with
me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
It is your rhetoric versus the Bible. Your doctrine implies that Noah could have sat around doing nothing because God's warning and instructions on the ark was just a free gift he had to trust in.
You say...
The Bible says...
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
You say...
The Bible says...
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
Workers Together - sunergeō - G4903
From G4904; to be a fellow worker, that is, co-operate: - help (work) with, work (-er) together.
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Work Out - katergazomai - G2716
From G2596 and G2038; to work fully, that is, accomplish; by implication to finish, fashion: - cause, do (deed), perform, work (out).
You say...
The Bible says...
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Works done apart from God won't make anyone holy or righteous but works done in Christ when we work together with God putting His grace into effect by faith most certainly do.
You say...
The Bible says...
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
You say...
The Bible says...
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
Workers Together - sunergeō - G4903
From G4904; to be a fellow worker, that is, co-operate: - help (work) with, work (-er) together.
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Work Out - katergazomai - G2716
From G2596 and G2038; to work fully, that is, accomplish; by implication to finish, fashion: - cause, do (deed), perform, work (out).
You say...
The Bible says...
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Works done apart from God won't make anyone holy or righteous but works done in Christ when we work together with God putting His grace into effect by faith most certainly do.
That is your error. It is easy to fall into error when you stray from the scriptures and try and read things into the text. Many of the other things you say are true but your foundation is in error.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed to the believer.
What it does say is that FAITH is imputed as righteousness.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Believed - pisteuō - G4100
pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Faith - pistis - G4102
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
Justification is by faith because it is by faith that the heart is purified.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
When someone forsakes their wickedness in repentance and is broken on that rock of Christ they are in a position to yield to God. A wild horse must be broken before it will submit to a rider and it is no different with a sinner.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Once the wickedness has been forsaken the new believer then yields to the working of God in them by faith. This produces purity of heart.
Jesus said it like this...
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
You are correct when you quote Titus 3:4-6 because it is God working in us. We yield to that work. This is why Paul would say...
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Then a few verses say...
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
God is the author of our salvation but it is via an obedient faith that we cooperate with the author and thus the fruit of salvation is produced. Thus we are saved by grace through faith.
It is error to say that the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed to you because righteousness cannot be transferred. Righteousness is something that we do.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
What we do is we partake in the divine nature after having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Nature - phusis - G5449
From G5453; growth (by germination or expansion), that is, (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension a genus or sort; figuratively native disposition, constitution or usage: - ([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]).
The divine nature is something that grows in us as we yield to the working of God.
Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
Look at this verse...
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
It's talking about the exact same thing as I was elaborating on above. It is the divine nature, the mind of Christ, the righteousness of God. It is not transferred to us, rather, it manifests in us through us yielding to God through abiding in Jesus Christ.
It is through the knowledge of Jesus Christ that God has given us all we need to attain life and godliness.
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
It is a beautiful thing.
After all this is the whole purpose of the commandment.
1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
It is a beautiful thing.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed to the believer.
What it does say is that FAITH is imputed as righteousness.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Believed - pisteuō - G4100
pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Faith - pistis - G4102
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
Justification is by faith because it is by faith that the heart is purified.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
When someone forsakes their wickedness in repentance and is broken on that rock of Christ they are in a position to yield to God. A wild horse must be broken before it will submit to a rider and it is no different with a sinner.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Once the wickedness has been forsaken the new believer then yields to the working of God in them by faith. This produces purity of heart.
Jesus said it like this...
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
You are correct when you quote Titus 3:4-6 because it is God working in us. We yield to that work. This is why Paul would say...
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Then a few verses say...
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
God is the author of our salvation but it is via an obedient faith that we cooperate with the author and thus the fruit of salvation is produced. Thus we are saved by grace through faith.
It is error to say that the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed to you because righteousness cannot be transferred. Righteousness is something that we do.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
What we do is we partake in the divine nature after having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Nature - phusis - G5449
From G5453; growth (by germination or expansion), that is, (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension a genus or sort; figuratively native disposition, constitution or usage: - ([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]).
The divine nature is something that grows in us as we yield to the working of God.
Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
Look at this verse...
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
It's talking about the exact same thing as I was elaborating on above. It is the divine nature, the mind of Christ, the righteousness of God. It is not transferred to us, rather, it manifests in us through us yielding to God through abiding in Jesus Christ.
It is through the knowledge of Jesus Christ that God has given us all we need to attain life and godliness.
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
It is a beautiful thing.
After all this is the whole purpose of the commandment.
1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
It is a beautiful thing.
Last edited:
Crossfire,
While imputed righteousness is indeed a biblical concept, many in the church including Lutherans, Calvinists and proponents of OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved), would teach you that imputed righteousness is a hypothetical righteousness, a righteousness that can not be seen or experienced in the life of a believer which allows one to be saved in their sins. Unfortunately, nothing could be further from the truth. By no means what so ever is, nor ever was, imputed righteous a license to sin (licentiousness). Imputed Righteousness is not some abstract concept that is open to interpretation nor can it be discerned by the vain imaginations of fallen men.
I dont see imputed righteousness in the Bible, as Skinski proved through scripture, if Christs righteousness is imputed to us, then all sins are preforgiven, a working obedient faith is cancelled, as we will not be held accountable for our actions when the scriptures clearly say:
Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. For whatever a man sows, that he also will reap.
Gal 6:8 For he sowing to his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh. But he sowing to the Spirit will reap life everlasting from the Spirit.
While imputed righteousness is indeed a biblical concept, many in the church including Lutherans, Calvinists and proponents of OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved), would teach you that imputed righteousness is a hypothetical righteousness, a righteousness that can not be seen or experienced in the life of a believer which allows one to be saved in their sins. Unfortunately, nothing could be further from the truth. By no means what so ever is, nor ever was, imputed righteous a license to sin (licentiousness). Imputed Righteousness is not some abstract concept that is open to interpretation nor can it be discerned by the vain imaginations of fallen men.
I dont see imputed righteousness in the Bible, as Skinski proved through scripture, if Christs righteousness is imputed to us, then all sins are preforgiven, a working obedient faith is cancelled, as we will not be held accountable for our actions when the scriptures clearly say:
Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. For whatever a man sows, that he also will reap.
Gal 6:8 For he sowing to his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh. But he sowing to the Spirit will reap life everlasting from the Spirit.
A
"FAITH IS A WORK! The Deception of Eph 2:8-10"
wow the title says it all... red flag: works salvation is the doctrine found in many other religions, but its not the GOSPEL that Jesus taught.
Ephesians 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
dangerous thing to call God's words a Deception....
We are saved BY GRACE through Faith not of ourselves but a GIFT of God.
We are Created IN Christ for good works, not saved by our own works but by Christ's redemption work on the cross...
IF you look to yourself and your works for salvation you will hear these words on Judgement day because you do not place faith in GOD but in yourself.
Matthew 7
New King James Version (NKJV)
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
wow the title says it all... red flag: works salvation is the doctrine found in many other religions, but its not the GOSPEL that Jesus taught.
Ephesians 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
dangerous thing to call God's words a Deception....
We are saved BY GRACE through Faith not of ourselves but a GIFT of God.
We are Created IN Christ for good works, not saved by our own works but by Christ's redemption work on the cross...
IF you look to yourself and your works for salvation you will hear these words on Judgement day because you do not place faith in GOD but in yourself.
Matthew 7
New King James Version (NKJV)
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Last edited:
A
what????
works salvation is sowing seeds of the fleshly pride.
read the rest of the chapter....
WHAT does PAUL Boast of? What does HE place HIS trust in?
Galatians 6
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom[a] the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
17 From now on let no one trouble me, for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.
18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.
It is NOT works that saves but when someone is BORN Again and have God's HOLY SPIRIT dwell with them to teach, lead and comfort them are they truly able to cry forth ABBA FATHER!
ripping verses out of context is an unhealthy spiritual practice
works salvation is sowing seeds of the fleshly pride.
read the rest of the chapter....
WHAT does PAUL Boast of? What does HE place HIS trust in?
Galatians 6
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom[a] the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
17 From now on let no one trouble me, for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.
18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.
It is NOT works that saves but when someone is BORN Again and have God's HOLY SPIRIT dwell with them to teach, lead and comfort them are they truly able to cry forth ABBA FATHER!
ripping verses out of context is an unhealthy spiritual practice
A
perhaps if we spoke about what it means to Sow in the Spirit....
Luke 8
11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.
1 Corinthians 3:6-8
New King James Version (NKJV)
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
Its talking about sowing the SEED which is the WORD which will hopefully bear FRUIT in those who HEAR unto eternal life.
This is done when people are made a NEW Creation through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who will lead people to drink their milk and eventually eat their meat and discern between good and evil and overcome temptation and learn sound doctrine and be rooted and learn to abide in the vine but this is a life long process that occurs on GOD's time not men's.
Salvation is NOT when you are sinless but when we are sinners still God begins a good work within us to transform us into the image of His Son. We do not remain sinners but are transformed and run the good race upward towards His calling but sometimes people stumble but GOD is able to make them stand. When we sin God convicts and chastens us brings us to repentance and cleanses us through His forgiveness by the shed blood of Christ for He is alive and is an intercessor for us.
It is not through OUR works but through Christ who lives within us that we are able to stand against the wiles of the evil one and overcome temptations of this world.
What need would there be for an Intercessor if people are sinless before salvation?
Sanctification and salvation are not the same thing.
Hebrews 12
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”[a]
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
Hebrews 13
20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you[d] what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
God is the one who makes people complete, sanctifies and saves.
NOT people's works but GOD who works in them and makes them a NEW Creation in Christ,
filled with the Holy Spirit who leads and guides all of God's children.
God will lead people to do good works but its NOT the works that saves....
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED, even if his works are consumed by fire. .... why? because the SPIRIT of GOD dwells in that person
How can you defile the temple? by worshiping Idols and denying the Holy Spirit...
there is sin unto death and sin NOT unto death, its in scripture......
1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
Luke 8
11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.
1 Corinthians 3:6-8
New King James Version (NKJV)
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
Its talking about sowing the SEED which is the WORD which will hopefully bear FRUIT in those who HEAR unto eternal life.
This is done when people are made a NEW Creation through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who will lead people to drink their milk and eventually eat their meat and discern between good and evil and overcome temptation and learn sound doctrine and be rooted and learn to abide in the vine but this is a life long process that occurs on GOD's time not men's.
Salvation is NOT when you are sinless but when we are sinners still God begins a good work within us to transform us into the image of His Son. We do not remain sinners but are transformed and run the good race upward towards His calling but sometimes people stumble but GOD is able to make them stand. When we sin God convicts and chastens us brings us to repentance and cleanses us through His forgiveness by the shed blood of Christ for He is alive and is an intercessor for us.
It is not through OUR works but through Christ who lives within us that we are able to stand against the wiles of the evil one and overcome temptations of this world.
What need would there be for an Intercessor if people are sinless before salvation?
Sanctification and salvation are not the same thing.
Hebrews 12
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”[a]
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
Hebrews 13
20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you[d] what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
God is the one who makes people complete, sanctifies and saves.
NOT people's works but GOD who works in them and makes them a NEW Creation in Christ,
filled with the Holy Spirit who leads and guides all of God's children.
God will lead people to do good works but its NOT the works that saves....
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED, even if his works are consumed by fire. .... why? because the SPIRIT of GOD dwells in that person
How can you defile the temple? by worshiping Idols and denying the Holy Spirit...
there is sin unto death and sin NOT unto death, its in scripture......
1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
what????
works salvation is sowing seeds of the fleshly pride.
read the rest of the chapter....
WHAT does PAUL Boast of? What does HE place HIS trust in?
Galatians 6
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom[a] the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
17 From now on let no one trouble me, for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.
18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.
It is NOT works that saves but when someone is BORN Again and have God's HOLY SPIRIT dwell with them to teach, lead and comfort them are they truly able to cry forth ABBA FATHER!
ripping verses out of context is an unhealthy spiritual practice
works salvation is sowing seeds of the fleshly pride.
read the rest of the chapter....
WHAT does PAUL Boast of? What does HE place HIS trust in?
Galatians 6
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom[a] the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
17 From now on let no one trouble me, for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.
18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.
It is NOT works that saves but when someone is BORN Again and have God's HOLY SPIRIT dwell with them to teach, lead and comfort them are they truly able to cry forth ABBA FATHER!
ripping verses out of context is an unhealthy spiritual practice
Now how would you describe blblical repentance and faith?
And is there any sin one must stop to be saved?
Thank you for your time and patients.
Do you believe you can never loose your salvation, and that Jesus took your place on the cross, or that God doesnt see your wicked heart(depraved), but the pure heart of Jesus?
THank you, just trying to see where your
foundation is coming from.
I also believe Skinski7 has given us tons of scriptures, and proof what a real obedient faith is, explaining the difference between the works of the law and and an obedient righteous faith in love. I dont see any ripping of scripture unless you believe in original sin, imputed righteousness, OSAS, etc... then I can see why you accuse us of ripping scripture, because you are the one decieved by the spirit of error.
Last edited:
A
you first have to have salvation before you can lose it, but once you have God's Holy Spirit inside of you and you have been Born Again of both the water of repentance in which your sins buried with Christ and then raised again with His Holy Spirit then no you can't lose that salvation because you have the incorruptible seed in your heart. It more than words but a peace as God gives not as the world gives.
what do you think these verses mean then?
Colossians 2
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins[c] of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
I believe Jesus nailed it to the cross "having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us"
and I believe God still sees when people sin and that He chastens them for it. that is part of the sanctification process. salvation is based upon Christ's redemption work on the cross. Sanctification is when God's Holy Spirit molds people into the divine nature where they have His heart and obey His will.
I believe in the Bible.
So you are denying original sin and imputed righteousness?
Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
If the Holy Spirit, the INCORRUPTIBLE Seed, the WORD dwells within you then I believe it is eternal and God's Holy Spirit will lead people to do His good works He saved them and made them for.
1 Peter 1
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit[d] in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,[e] 24 because
“All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man[f] as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the Lord endures forever.”[g]
Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.
It is NOT works that save. Faith is Not a work. It is a gift of God.
God gives each a measure of faith and makes us rely upon one another to be a whole body and accomplish the task He tells us to do which is love one another and speak the Gospel in season and out of season.
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
... so if people don't agree with you they are "deceived by the spirit of error" .... prideful much?
what do you think these verses mean then?
Colossians 2
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins[c] of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
I believe Jesus nailed it to the cross "having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us"
and I believe God still sees when people sin and that He chastens them for it. that is part of the sanctification process. salvation is based upon Christ's redemption work on the cross. Sanctification is when God's Holy Spirit molds people into the divine nature where they have His heart and obey His will.
I believe in the Bible.
So you are denying original sin and imputed righteousness?
Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
If the Holy Spirit, the INCORRUPTIBLE Seed, the WORD dwells within you then I believe it is eternal and God's Holy Spirit will lead people to do His good works He saved them and made them for.
1 Peter 1
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit[d] in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,[e] 24 because
“All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man[f] as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the Lord endures forever.”[g]
Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.
It is NOT works that save. Faith is Not a work. It is a gift of God.
God gives each a measure of faith and makes us rely upon one another to be a whole body and accomplish the task He tells us to do which is love one another and speak the Gospel in season and out of season.
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
... so if people don't agree with you they are "deceived by the spirit of error" .... prideful much?
Last edited:
C
I already addressed this issue in my other post called "Just what is imputed righteousness?"
"... faith was accredited to Abraham as righteousness. However what many do not realize is that faith is not a work of man but rather faith is the evidence (fruit) of the Holy Spirit at work in a man. For example, a man could not repent unless the Holy Spirit first convict his heart. A man can not receive fresh revelation from the word of God (bible) unless the Holy Spirit first show him how that word is relevant to his life. etc."
If you believe that your faith is a work of man, then it is you who are in error. What's sad is that you're so caught up in your agenda against the Lutheran / Calvinistic / OSAS ideal of imputed righteousness that you didn't even read past the first couple of lines of my post.
The righteousness of Christ during his time on earth was the indwelling Holy Spirit. Seeing as believers receive (or is imputed) a measure of the Holy Spirit upon salvation, believers now have access to the divine nature that Christ possessed. The divine nature is commonly referred to as the fruits of the Spirit. This is the righteousness of Christ that we receive. Not some hypothetical righteousness which teaches you can be saved in your sin. In fact scripture plainly states that sin grieves the Holy Spirit:
(Ephesians 4:30)
"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
(Heb. 10:29)
"How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"
I don't mean any disrespect but you are very presumptious in your belief all are in error outside of your little circle. If you actually read half of what I written, you will find that I agree with you that what the Lutherans / Neo Calvinistic teaching of imputed righteousness is wrong. However, I offer a perspective that you haven't the wisdom to discern thus you automatically assume that I'm in error.
Last edited:
C
Now I absolutely agree that good works do indeed accompany authentic saving faith however, good works are the result / fruit of authentic faith. They can not save you in and of themselves. If they could then heaven would be over run with devout Muslims who out pray, out fast and out discipline any a great majority of modern Christians.
Last edited:
Faith come by hearing and hearing by the word of God. We access grace through faith. Faith is substantial and evidential. Faith is a mind totally persuaded of things unseen that the individual with faith may perform.
Faith is not a work of man, faith is rooted in mans response to the leading of God. Hence repentance is wrought in yielding to the working of God in the soul. The working of God is by His grace, it is Hsi divine influence and this is yielding to through the submission of the will wrought through a genuine repentance and faith, both of which are hinged upon the initial drawing of the Father. Hence grace by faith.
The error I see is that "righteousness" is transferred. Righteousness is not a substance and simply cannot be transferred. Just like sin cannot be transferred because likewise it is not a substance.
Righteousness and sin are both the result of choices made. Sin is rooted in selfishness and righteousness is rooted in love. True love proceeds from the Father through Jesus Christ indwelling in us and sin proceeds from self will.
That is my issue with what you have said. As far as I understand everything else I tend to agree.
I am not quite sure exactly where you stand on the sin actually stopping though. The Bible clearly teaches that the sin stops in repentance and that is certainly not taught in the church system.
To be cleansed of all sin (forgiven) one must have first forsaken that sin to be walking in the light. The Bible is very clear on this.
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
That verse above could not be clearer.
James says basically the same thing...
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
God will not lift anyone up who does not first cleanse themselves through repentance. The Prodigal Son first left the pig pen BEFORE he was restored by the father.
James says to lay aside ALL filthiness and overflow of wickedness BEFORE one can receive the implanted word with meekness.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
The church system teaches that you receive the implanted word IN YOUR wickedness and THEN you start to lay it aside over a period of time. That is the deception. They have it backwards.
Acts 3:19 has repentance and conversion occurring BEFORE forgiveness.
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
John the Baptist preached repentance FOR remission.
Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
It is through repentance that one cleanses themselves so they can be walking in the light. One does this by yielding to the light given and forsaking all known wrongdoing. This is where we die with Christ in the baptism of repentance so that God may raise us up again with Christ as a new creation.
If the rhetoric is stripped away from all the refutations above the bottom line is they are all arguing in favour of sin. They are denying that the sin stops in repentance and they are teaching that one comes into the kingdom still double minded and sinful. They get saved in that state and then a gradual cleanup begins. The Bible does not teach that as I outlined clearly above.
It is true we grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ as Peter wrote but that is not sinning less and less. The rebellious heart is taken care of in repentance. God may reveal things we are doing wrong after we have been quickened and renewed but those things will not be rooted in willful transgression against God. There is a very big difference.
I hope I am clear. The root issue is what repentance actually is. Repentance is the genuine change of mind that leads to a change of action. The sin must stop or the repentance was not real. It is that simple.
People can try and use all the rhetoric they want to explain everything I wrote away but let us see someone explain how you can be walking in the light while still double minded and sinning in thought, word and deed every day. The truth is you cannot!
You are very long winded but because your foundation is that you get saved in your sins it all is just really empty words put together in a vain effort to support that you can get saved and then keep on sinning.
Sanctification and justification are tied together in the Bible. You are only justified as far as you are sanctified.
A murderer has to forsake murdering BEFORE God will count Him as just.
A child molester must forsake his child molestation BEFORE God will count him just.
Likewise a liar must stop lying, a thief must stop stealing, a pornography addict must forsake his pornography.
Look at this verse...
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
How can a child molester, thief, liar, rapist or murderer be walking in the light while still engaged in those sins? They cannot be.
Jesus said this...
Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
The eye must be singly focused on Christ. One cannot be double minded.
Jas_4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
A double minded man is tossed to and fro and is unstable in all his ways.
Jas 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
You cannot get around these scriptures. You cannot redefine repentance to make an allowance for a continuation of willful sin in any form. The sin must stop, that is the whole purpose of repentance.
The mind changes in repentance and thus the action changes. A person who truly repents will not continue in the behaviour they just repented of, if they do then they either never repented or they repented of their repentance. Both of which are states of condemnation.
Sanctification and justification are tied together in the Bible. You are only justified as far as you are sanctified.
A murderer has to forsake murdering BEFORE God will count Him as just.
A child molester must forsake his child molestation BEFORE God will count him just.
Likewise a liar must stop lying, a thief must stop stealing, a pornography addict must forsake his pornography.
Look at this verse...
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
How can a child molester, thief, liar, rapist or murderer be walking in the light while still engaged in those sins? They cannot be.
Jesus said this...
Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
The eye must be singly focused on Christ. One cannot be double minded.
Jas_4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
A double minded man is tossed to and fro and is unstable in all his ways.
Jas 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
You cannot get around these scriptures. You cannot redefine repentance to make an allowance for a continuation of willful sin in any form. The sin must stop, that is the whole purpose of repentance.
The mind changes in repentance and thus the action changes. A person who truly repents will not continue in the behaviour they just repented of, if they do then they either never repented or they repented of their repentance. Both of which are states of condemnation.