FAITH IS A WORK! The Deception of Eph 2:8-10

[AnandaHya]

skinski you can play a shell game if you like but you misrepresent what I have said.

I did not say that God saved people and they should keep sinning. I said that Jesus saved sinners.

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

if you say that you have to be perfect and spotless before you are worthy to pray to God and be saved, then you lie.

"the mind changes in repentance and thus the action changes"

yes and what happens when someone stumbles?

where is God's grace and mercy in your message?

I've given the verses that God chastens those whom He loves. Why would there be a need for chastement if there was not the presence of sin?

I'm not saying that people should allow the sin to remain, but that salvation is not give because we are perfect but because God loved us even when we were sinners and sent Christ to die for us for Remission of sins. Do you know what the word "remission" and "propiation" mean?

in addition what role does the Holy Spirit play in your version of works salvation?

long winded? look at the word count of your own posts...

 

[Skinski7]

skinski you can play a shell game if you like but you misrepresent what I have said.

I did not say that God saved people and they should keep sinning. I said that Jesus saved sinners.

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

if you say that you have to be perfect and spotless before you are worthy to pray to God and be saved, then you lie.

"the mind changes in repentance and thus the action changes"

yes and what happens when someone stumbles?

where is God's grace and mercy in your message?

I've given the verses that God chastens those whom He loves. Why would there be a need for chastement if there was not the presence of sin?

I'm not saying that people should allow the sin to remain, but that salvation is not give because we are perfect but because God loved us even when we were sinners and sent Christ to die for us for Remission of sins. Do you know what the word "remission" and "propiation" mean?

in addition what role does the Holy Spirit play in your version of works salvation?

Read the Scripture it means what it says.

I never once said that a sinner has to become perfect and spotless to make themselves worthy before they can pray to God and be saved.

I said that a sinner must repent and forsake all known sin before forgiveness is granted.

Pro 28:13, Isa 55:7, Acts 3:19, Jam 1:21, 1Joh 1:7 all prove this without a doubt along with many other scriptures.

The Prodigal Son had to leave the pig pen BEFORE forgiveness was granted.

Your issue is with me pointing those scriptures out.

The propitiation is the mercy seat, it is where sins are expiated. Our sins are cleansed by the blood at the cross when we die with Christ in repentance and are raised up by the power of God to new life.

Remission is where God passes over our past sins by His mercy. He purges them, you can see this in Hebrews 9:14 and 2Pet 1:7 as well as Rom 3:25.

The other important word which you did not mention is "redemption" which means deliverance by ransom paid in full. Jesus Christ purchased us by His blood so that we may serve Him acceptably. We were bought with a price.

My message is full of grace and mercy but grace is not a license to sin. That is the difference.

God's mercy is available for all those who repent. His grace has appeared to all men teaching them to live holy. If they yield to His grace and forsake their wickedness then mercy is available.

We don't quicken or regenerate ourselves, that is a work of God, but God will not regenerate someone who refuses to forsake their rebellion.

It is a simple message. Stop sinning and turn to God and He will restore you.

People want to obfuscate that message with a theological system which keeps people in bondage to their sin. Instead of people crucifying their old man in repentance they are convinced that they can crucify the old man in stages over a period of time, thus being in a state of doubled mindedness serving two masters.

This cannot be so because the blood only cleanses if you are walking in the light. That is why repentance and forsaking sin is taught throughout the Bible. It is an essential truth. Satan knows that and perverts it with much twisting and rhetoric. If one cuts through the rhetoric and twisting the truth stands out very brightly.

God's chastening is to bring us into perfection. When a new believer comes into the faith there may be many things in their life that they are doing wrong but do not know. Yet their will has been broken and God will continue to work in them to will and to do of His good pleasure, He will chasten them, reprove them and bring them into more and more light.

It is very simple. Many will take verses like the chastening scriptures and imply that Christian's are all still in sin. 1Joh 5:18, 1Pet 4:1, Rom 6:7, Gal 5:24 many other scriptures completely refute false understanding.

Jesus taught that we must be DOERS of the word. Jesus taught we must STRIVE.

You take offense to that and call that a heretical "works salvation."

Works of faith are absolutely essential to salvation. If you are not a doer of the word then you receive the grace of God to no effect. It is that simple, that is what the Bible clearly says, and to disagree with it means you don't believe the Scripture.

 

[Skinski7]

The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. A believer is infilled with the Holy Spirit to empower them to walk in the light. Thus is it not our own power that we walk by but by the power of God working through us. We are just workers together with God and thus the power manifests through our steps.

The Holy Spirit also comforts us and bears witness to our spirit that we are indeed the sons of God.

 

[AnandaHya]

Your issue is with me pointing those scriptures out.

untrue. I don't mind you pointing out scriptures. I actually agree with most of your points.

My problem with you was that you hadn't until recently mentioned the Holy Spirit

and how God empowers people and it is not of their own will but God's that they are saved

and that you call FAITH a work and not a gift of God as God has said in these verses:

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God


.........look I kept the post in short baby morsels for you. ......

 

[Skinski7]

untrue. I don't mind you pointing out scriptures. I actually agree with most of your points.

My problem with you was that you hadn't until recently mentioned the Holy Spirit

and how God empowers people and it is not of their own will but God's that they are saved

and that you call FAITH a work and not a gift of God as God has said in these verses:

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God


.........look I kept the post in short baby morsels for you. ......

My initial post is all about grace and what it actually it is. Grace is the power of God but it is only put into use through an active faith, not a passive faith.

Ephesians 2:8 is saying that grace is the gift of God not faith. Compare it to Rom 4:4...

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

It is by God's mercy and graciousness that we are saved. He leads and we follow, it is not of anything that we do apart from that, we cannot earn it, we cannot save ourselves. This is why the Pharisees and Galatians were in error for they were seeking their righteousness in the outside of the cup apart from the grace of God. This is the distinction between works done in faith and works done in the flesh.

Yet faith is a gift of God in the sense that it has its source with God. What I mean by that is God is the light and it is through yielding to that light that faith is wrought. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. The word of God has its origin with God.

Yet this in no way makes faith a "passive trust." Faith is something we do. It is an all encompassing persuasive state of mind, it is an embodiment of the light within expressing itself through our deeds.

The church system teaches faith as trust and grace as a free gift. Thus they will never tell sinners that they must strive or be doers of the word or else be lost. They will never tell their congregations they have to stop all willful sin. I have not found a single pastor yet who has specifically told me that you must stop all willful sin BEFORE forgiveness is granted. None.



Also because most professing Christians hold to the doctrine of original sin they view sin as in the nature, a disease if you will, thus actual sin becomes a symptom of this sin disease. Thus repentance is redefined to simply be a confession of having this sin disease and "desiring" to change.

Thus what happens is that converts think they are getting saved yet they have never crucified their old man in repentance. They never truly repented. This is why the church system is full of sin.

Thus sanctification becomes a long drawn out process of sinning less and less. People believe that they cannot stop sinning and thus they wait on God to change their sinful nature and desires. It never happens.

Sin is a choice. A true believer crucifies their old man in repentance with the passions and desires of the flesh. They then rule over them and walk after the Spirit. God regenerates them and infills them with the Spirit and they walk in the light. It is a wonderful thing.

 

[hislastwalk]

Your works do not justify you. Your faith does, but if your faith is pure your works will be too. If you think your works are what make you righteous then you are deceived.

 

[Trax]

It is your rhetoric versus the Bible. Your doctrine implies that Noah could have sat around doing nothing because God's warning and instructions on the ark was just a free gift he had to trust in.

You comparing apples to oranges. You know I spoke the truth. You know deep inside you that
if you do works to save yourself, you are lost. You seek to save your life, you WILL lose it.

 

[Nancyer]

Very well put! Obedience is indeed work as in it is difficult sometimes to accomplish because we are human but doing it out of a desire to please the one we love, God, is entirely different from feeling like we have to do this, this, this, and that in order to accepted, loved, and wanted. We try to be obedient because we love God, He loves us because he is God.

 

[Crossfire]

Very well put! Obedience is indeed work as in it is difficult sometimes to accomplish because we are human but doing it out of a desire to please the one we love, God, is entirely different from feeling like we have to do this, this, this, and that in order to accepted, loved, and wanted. We try to be obedient because we love God, He loves us because he is God.

Exactly! We obey because we love God and want to live a life pleasing unto Him. If we approach everything we do in love for the Father and for others then God's anointing will be present and good fruit will come of it.

However, if we do good works because we some how feel those good works will somehow reward us - regardless of what that reward might be - then our good works are no different than sin because they are done out of selfishness.

 

[Crossfire]

untrue. I don't mind you pointing out scriptures. I actually agree with most of your points.

My problem with you was that you hadn't until recently mentioned the Holy Spirit

and how God empowers people and it is not of their own will but God's that they are saved

and that you call FAITH a work and not a gift of God as God has said in these verses:

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God


.........look I kept the post in short baby morsels for you. ......

Excellent post Ananda.

 

[Crossfire]

The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. A believer is infilled with the Holy Spirit to empower them to walk in the light. Thus is it not our own power that we walk by but by the power of God working through us. We are just workers together with God and thus the power manifests through our steps.

The Holy Spirit also comforts us and bears witness to our spirit that we are indeed the sons of God.

Very true. The Holy Spirit is the source of our strength. The scriptures plainly teach that if it is our desire to avoid fulfilling the lusts of the flesh as scripture does in deed call for, then our only option is to abide / walk in the Spirit. What you need to ask yourself is why....

 

[Tommy4Christ]

I think the issue here with those who accuse us of preaching works salvation is repentance, as no one seems to get this right, we are not trying to EARN anything from God, far from it, Skinski has made it perfectly clear.
IF your foundation is built on original sin, and substitution, followed by gradual sanctification, then you make many excuses for sin and disobedience.
I believe our actions and behavior has direct effect on salvation, yes we obey because we love God, as Jesus said in Jon 14-15, but disobedience leads to death, is this earning anything from God?
I also obey Him, because I fear Him, and know what happens to those who sin willfully after they have repented and forsook thier sins.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Faith is a gift, but its also a work of obedience, and righteousness(which is just doing what is right by faith) as Abraham did, he acted in faith to sacrifice his beloved son, which was a work of obedience, hense a working faith in love, now it he decided to not obey Gods commands, then God would have choosen someone else for the task, he had a choice, obey from his heart. or not, a free will choice.
The confusion comes as I mentioned to those who believe in OSAS, and the other false teachings blended into Christianity during the reformation, now the errors has caused havoc, and much confusion, from the basic truth handed down to the saints of old.

Basically if you do not obey God, through a working faith in love, purity, and devotion, you are not His, and you must endure in your faith, through perseverance, diligence, and obedience from the heart, not telling God, "look at me, I am doing good, I am obeying, I am doing this and that to earn my salvation, no I am saying I obey because God has forgiven all my past sins, through repentance and faith, 2 Cor 7-10-11, now I walk in newness of life and heart, having crucified my flesh with Christ. Gal 2-20.
I now serve God with a pure and undefiled heart, not perfect, but made pure through repentance and faith proven by deeds.
But I don't think its works to obey God because I know IF I don't, then I will not inherit the kingdom of God!
I obey Him out of love and fear.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
We obey Him because he gave us free will and ability, we are not robots, or God didn't create sinners, we choose to sin, follow Adams example, and seek out our own way, apart from God who gives us all we need to walk a life pleasing to Him.
Jesus didn't obey for us, and faith is dynamic, alive, and real, but must be activated by us, to make it work, through obedience, that comes through real repentance. The heart is made pure by faith, as we work together with God, in our redemption.
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

​

​

repentance unto salvation!​

Repentance is an urgent desire to change! (2 Corinthians 7:11) You believe from your heart. You obey to receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:32) He comes into a clean vessel. A heart made pure by faith (obedience) Acts 15:9) you obey and keep obeying, daily, to keep your heart pure and undefiled from the world! (1 Peter 1:22) That's how it works! Genuine repentance involves humility, brokenness and is a humiliating experience. When the true light of God's word floods into your soul, you see yourself as you are, in rebellion to God! This is what godly sorrow is all about. Deep regret for your sin's, a season of sorrow, leading to salvation! (2 Corinthians 7:10) not getting saved in your disobedience and sin's, but out of them, through true repentance first where the flesh is crucified with Christ, and put to death! (Galatians 2:20) cleansed to receive the Holy Spirit!

Now you got salvation!​

 

[Tommy4Christ]

Here is an excellent observation from standingthegap.org, on faith and works, it comes alive when put into perspective:

Quote:

By preaching faith as ‘Trusting’ in Jesus you allow the people to draw the conclusion that they can ‘believe’ in God WITHOUT OBEYING Him! And such faith, according to the Scriptures, is inoperable. (James2:22-24)
We RECEIVE Grace for OBEDIENCE to the Faith! (Rom1:5) NOT for ‘Trusting’ that Jesus obeyed in our place and has forgiven us in advance. That defeats the PURPOSE of Faith and renders the Gospel of no effect. Therefore to Preach Repentance and Faith, according to the Scriptures, you must REJECT this notion that a person can be truly Saved by Repeating some words and ‘asking’ Jesus into his heart, rather than OBEYING FROM HIS HEART as the Scripture declares. (Rom6:16)

This is the Radical Departure from Mainstream Evangelism FEW are willing to make. It would drastically reduce the ‘success’ factor in amount of supposed ‘conversions’ immediately. If the people were told they had to Deny their flesh, repent and forsake their sins, flee the wrath of God and fall on the Mercy of Christ in Obedient Faith to be saved, the WHOLE Religious System would come apart at the seams. If the preachers and teachers were crying out against the sins of the flesh and pointing to the corruption in men’s hearts, they would be despised, rejected and probably persecuted.

Instead most church pastors are loved and adored by the people who call themselves Christians but don’t Obey God. They operate in the spotlight, so to speak, popular among men, well received, with a comforting message of a positive nature. ‘God is love!’ ‘He has a wonderful Plan for your life’ ‘Receive Jesus now and find this peace, joy and freedom from guilt.’ It sounds good and draws in the people, BUT it’s nowhere to be found in the Bible! That’s because it’s NOT the Gospel preached by the Apostles and our Lord and the By-product is NOT the Salvation of Souls from the corrupting influence of sin!

 

[Tommy4Christ]

You are Saved by: James1:21-22
Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

The Receiving with Meekness is Repentance with godly sorry. The Implanted Word is what you Obey.

FAITH IS OBEDIENCE TO THE TRUTH, A WORK, YOU DO NOT OBEY, YOU SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

[shroom2]

You are Saved by: James1:21-22
Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

The Receiving with Meekness is Repentance with godly sorry. The Implanted Word is what you Obey.

FAITH IS OBEDIENCE TO THE TRUTH, A WORK, YOU DO NOT OBEY, YOU SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

The implanted word is able to save your souls.

Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Our salvation is not contingent on stopping sinning or confessing all our sins. It is contingent on confessing Jesus as Lord and believing God raised him from the dead.

This is in no way condoning sin, but it is the way to be saved.

 

[jkalyna]

NOT ONLY WILL THEY SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES BUT THEY ARE MISSING THE MARK. NEITHER HOT NOR COLD. NOT FULLY SURRENDERING THE TONGUE TO THE LORD, FOR OUT OF THE ABUNDANCE OF THE HEART THE MOUTH SPEAKETH. PEER PRESSURE JUST GO WITH THE CROWD, FOR A ONE WAY RIDE.

 

[AnandaHya]

sounds like someone has been listening to too much Joel Osten.

" If the people were told they had to Deny their flesh, repent and forsake their sins, flee the wrath of God and fall on the Mercy of Christ in Obedient Faith to be saved, the WHOLE Religious System would come apart at the seams.'

not true, I know of quite a few churches that preach it all the time.

Also, at one point in time legalism was all the rage and they liked to preach fire and brimestone, swinging the opposite way of how you see church conducted now. ...

You should find a church that isn't country clubs, haven't become seeker sensitive, purpose driven, word of faith churches that take all the "uncomfortable" parts out of the Bible and made it about the person's experiences and works and not Jesus. You won't find the Gospel preached in most Mega churches with over 200 people in attendance or most TV preachers because it doesn't draw the crowds or guilt people into allow them to collect the money, power and adoration of the masses for themselves instead of for God. However there are a few, a remnant that God keeps faithful to His Gospel message who continue to preach Christ and Him cruxified.


The foundation is Jesus, build your faith on anything else and its just sinking sand.

1. first people have to admit that they are sinners,

not because of something someone else has done but because they choose to be sinful and transgress against God.

IF you think in your heart that "God made me this way" then you are blaming God. or "its because Adam that I did it" or "you can't help it in this fallen world" then you are still making excuses and not confessing your sins but blaming others for your actions and thoughts instead of making them captive and tearing the strongholds that war against the knowledge of Christ.

Awareness and having a humble and contrite heart is just the first step.

Ezekiel 18
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!

Isaiah 57:15
For thus says the High and Lofty One Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: “I dwell in the high and holy place, With him who has a contrite and humble spirit, To revive the spirit of the humble, And to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Luke 18
Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

15 Then they also brought infants to Him that He might touch them; but when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called them to Him and said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. 17 Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”

If you cried out to God and said "God be merciful to me a sinner!" why wouldn't you want to forsake your sins?

You don't have to make a list and confess all your sins but you have to have in your heart the willingness to forsake all sin in order to heed the upward calling of God. You have to count the cost and in your heart know that you are willing to pay unto death itself in order to follow Jesus Christ and His ways, in order to follow the Holy Spirit would you be able to not only forsake all sinful and bad things you know are wrong but obstain from things that give you joy but are not God's plan for you? Though it may be lawful it may not be helpful.

Perhaps my mind is not big enough to imagine the reason why people would want to continue sinning if they know its wrong, most of the time they convince themselves its not really a sin or make other excuses. for in the mind and heart is the seeds of disobedience grown before they bear fruit in external actions and words. That is why God told us to tear down the strongholds that war against the knowledge of God.

God's Holy Spirit has empowered us in all things pertaining to life and godliness. If we are to be partakers of the divine nature then we do not just have faith (which is given to us by God and is NOT a work) but add to it diligently these things:

2 Peter 1

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

however if you do stumble you have an intercessor in Jesus:

Hebrews 7:25
Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Salvation is not a ONE time event. it is past, present and future.

There are still those who can honestly confess these words:

2 Corinthians 2
14 Now thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and through us diffuses the fragrance of His knowledge in every place. 15 For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. 16 To the one we are the aroma of death leading to death, and to the other the aroma of life leading to life. And who is sufficient for these things? 17 For we are not, as so many, peddling the word of God; but as of sincerity, but as from God, we speak in the sight of God in Christ.

2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

1 Thessalonians 5:8
But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.

Romans 8
23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

yeah yeah its wordy but the colored words are from the Bible.

people don't drink enough milk and they wonder why they can't stand the meat of it....

 

[Skinski7]

Neither AnandaHay or Shroom can say that the sin must stop.


It is exactly the same in the church system. You'll hear that you must "want" to stop. You must "desire" to stop. But they will never actually say you MUST stop BEFORE God will forgive you.



There are even some churches which will seemingly preach against sin and they'll preach the crucufixion of the flesh to a degree but it is always within that grey area of the "sin never actually stops." They will always bring up "stumbling" in the sense that one will slip up and fornicate, lie, cheat or steal at some stage. The sin never stopped. A true born again believer keeps himself from the corrupting influence of sin by the power of God (Rom 8:13-14, Joh 5:18, Gal 5:24). They live a crucified like and they do not "occasionally stumble" or "fall into sin." If one does that then they are not walking the crucified life but rather an ascetic life in the flesh. Salvation means the end of sin because the heart has been made pure. it is very simple.

The reason that the sin never stop is because they view sin as a disease or a malady which we are born with. Thus actual sin is necessitated by the inborn nature. One cannot repent of a nature but must wait on God to change it thus the entire Gospel is redefined to take this into account.

The root issue of the offense taken to my words in this thread is that of sin stopping. In order to stop sin one must obey God and be a doer of the word. People call that "works salvation" and will thus condemn the very words of Jesus.

The bottom line of what I has said is that faith is active rather than passive. Faith is a work, faith works by love. Works done by faith are absolutely essential to salvation because being a doer of the word is essential to salvation. Jesus clearly taught we MUST be doers. Being a doer is work. Work = doing something.

So those who say no works are required are denying Jesus. Works do not simply follow salvation, they are an intricate part of salvation.

In the book of Revelation the fallen church is told to repent and DO its FIRST WORKS again.




Again the whole point of my original post is to make the clear distinction between the works of faith and the works of the law/flesh. The latter do not save anyone while the former are essential.

 

[shroom2]

Neither AnandaHay or Shroom can say that the sin must stop.

It is exactly the same in the church system. You'll hear that you must "want" to stop. You must "desire" to stop. But they will never actually say you MUST stop BEFORE God will forgive you.

There are even some churches which will seemingly preach against sin and they'll preach the crucufixion of the flesh to a degree but it is always within that grey area of the "sin never actually stops." They will always bring up "stumbling" in the sense that one will slip up and fornicate, lie, cheat or steal at some stage. The sin never stopped. A true born again believer keeps himself from the corrupting influence of sin by the power of God (Rom 8:13-14, Joh 5:18, Gal 5:24). They live a crucified like and they do not "occasionally stumble" or "fall into sin." If one does that then they are not walking the crucified life but rather an ascetic life in the flesh. Salvation means the end of sin because the heart has been made pure. it is very simple.

The reason that the sin never stop is because they view sin as a disease or a malady which we are born with. Thus actual sin is necessitated by the inborn nature. One cannot repent of a nature but must wait on God to change it thus the entire Gospel is redefined to take this into account.

The root issue of the offense taken to my words in this thread is that of sin stopping. In order to stop sin one must obey God and be a doer of the word. People call that "works salvation" and will thus condemn the very words of Jesus.

The bottom line of what I has said is that faith is active rather than passive. Faith is a work, faith works by love. Works done by faith are absolutely essential to salvation because being a doer of the word is essential to salvation. Jesus clearly taught we MUST be doers. Being a doer is work. Work = doing something.

So those who say no works are required are denying Jesus. Works do not simply follow salvation, they are an intricate part of salvation.

In the book of Revelation the fallen church is told to repent and DO its FIRST WORKS again.

Again the whole point of my original post is to make the clear distinction between the works of faith and the works of the law/flesh. The latter do not save anyone while the former are essential.

Works are not "an intricate part of salvation".
Eph 2:
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 3:
9) What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom 7:
15) For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

 

[Skinski7]

Works are not "an intricate part of salvation".
Eph 2:
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 3:
9) What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom 7:
15) For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Works are not an intricate part of salvation. You might as well say that being a DOER of the word is not an intricate part of salvation. Or you might as well say that God is the author of salvation of those who obey and do not obey Him. In fact you might as well throw your Bible out the window because you simply do not believe what it says.


What you do is completely ignore the verses I post and then you post other verses completely out of context.

Read 2Pet 3 as he spoke of people that do that. It is a very dangerous thing to do because it leads to destruction.



Eph 2:8-10 is talking about works of the law/flesh. ie. works done apart from God.
You'll find that because righteousness is through an obedient faith and not of the external works of the law there is no boasting.

Paul clearly explains it here...

Romans 3
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The law of faith establishes the law in the heart thus purifying the root of the tree. The Pharisees had it in reverse thinking that by "touch not, taste not, keep this feast, wear these clothes" that they were made righteous, thus they boasted in external things.

This is not hard to understand. Thus we are saved by grace through faith, the grace of God working on the heart and man cooperates through an active faith.

Shroom yet you will throw out "not of works, not of works" when I say that. Obedient faith must be extremely offensive to you.

You can see Paul referring to the same thing here...

Romans 2
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

It is all about the heart not outward appearances. This is why Paul says the following...

Galatians 5
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

It is a faith that works by love that matters not getting circumcised. An outward work done apart from faith is complete vanity because outward works do not purify the heart. It is faith that purifies the heart.

Is this hard to understand?

Acts 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
1Pet1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Yet you cannot say that "obedient faith is mandatory for salvation." You cannot say that a "working faith" is mandatory for salvation.

You just keep going back to "it is not of works, it is not of works" like a child with their fingers in their ears.




What are you trying to imply by posting Romans 7 in the context of "sin being in you" ?

Are you trying to say that sin is a disease and you cannot help it?

That man in Romans 7 was carnal and sold under sin (Rom 7:14). He was enslaved to his passions and desires Rom 7:15). He needed to be delivered (Rom 7:24).

It is the law of the Spirit which sets us free from the body of death (Rom8:2). The way to be delivered is through repentance and faith leading to the refreshing (Acts 3:19). We crucify our old man once and for all in the baptism of repentance and then God raises us up to newness of life through quickening our spirit (Rom6:4-7, Eph 2:5, Col 2:11-13). That is the grace of God by which we are saved which we access through faith (Rom 5:2).

When we are set free we are no longer under the dominion of sin (Rom 6:14) thus we do not yield to sin (Rom 6:12-13). Instead we are slaves of righteousness (Rom 6:18) unto holiness (Rom 6:19) the end of which is eternal life (Rom 6:22). We keep ourselves because we are born of God and do not sin (1Joh 5:18, 1Pet 4:1-2, Rom 8:13-14).

If you are still carnal and sold under sin like the man Paul describes in Romans 7 then you are at odds with God (Rom 8:7-8) and you need deliverance.

Rom 3 is speaking at all (both Jews and Gentiles) are under sin. Thus both the Jews and the Gentiles need a saviour. They both need redemption. It is not saying that sin will have dominion over you once you are redeemed.

You have to be walking in the light to be cleansed of all sin (1Joh 1:7).


You completely ignore everything I write and try and twist it into something else in order to justify a belief that the sin does not stop.



Explain how you can be cleansed of ALL SIN when you are not walking in the light?

Explain that.

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.