Faith/Works...How much faith? How much works?

[NayborBear]

I am beginning to think the whole bible is about sin and fruit.........

I think the Bible is God's letter/s to us during this current "everlasting." Showing time after time, His loving kindness, for, and towards this evil generation.
How they would apostisize, how they would rebel, how they would be chastized, and admonished, punished, and/or corrected, how they would repent, and how our Father would heal them. Again, after, again, time after time!
Until, the adversary got God's children to force God, into THE IMAGE of whom they DEMANDED God to be!
....and, THEN they would follow Him! (sound familiar? )

IOW, the clay telling the potter, how He should make them!

Through the "lens" of the "Everlasting gospel?"
The Bible is a book of apostasy, and God's loving Kindness, which endures forever!

Meaning? It's BIGGER then the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The book of Revelation sez so. Heck! Even Jesus Himself sez that!

"If you believe me?" "Believe also, in He who who sent me."

 

[dcontroversal]

I think the Bible is God's letter/s to us during this current "everlasting." Showing time after time, His loving kindness, for, and towards this evil generation.
How they would apostisize, how they would rebel, how they would be chastized, and admonished, punished, and/or corrected, how they would repent, and how our Father would heal them. Again, after, again, time after time!
Until, the adversary got God's children to force God, into THE IMAGE of whom they DEMANDED God to be!
....and, THEN they would follow Him! (sound familiar? )

IOW, the clay telling the potter, how He should make them!

Through the "lens" of the "Everlasting gospel?"
The Bible is a book of apostasy, and God's loving Kindness, which endures forever!

Meaning? It's BIGGER then the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The book of Revelation sez so. Heck! Even Jesus Himself sez that!

"If you believe me?" "Believe also, in He who who sent me."

I hear ya and my comment was facetious based upon the incessant argument over sin and fruit that was taking place HAH

 

[Macabeus]

FALSE....salvation is BY FAITH...............the FAITH that Christ begins, finishes and COMPLETES.....................

LOL, READ my post again. I was talking about the WORKS THAT GOD DOES.

You don't believe in regeneration, or is it that you don't believe regeneration is the work of GOD.

 

[Macabeus]

Hiya, Bigmac!

I read your offer of a debate and I might have some time later next week. I've been incredibly busy with work and family issues atm. But real quick, as I'm pressed for time even now, let me give some clarity to my statements.

As far as a Christian sinning all they want and continuing to be saved...

You, I, and every other believer already do this. So I really don't see what the issue here is. We sin every day either by thought, word, or deed. We sin even more than we are aware, as God's requires absolute perfection to be saved. Salvation is a gift via grace - God's unmerited favor. To add a single requirement to it negates it as such. It turns salvation into a merit based system. How many works are needed? How many sins will cause one to lose it? Nobody ever has the specifics.

And once again: Christians should live a life that is pleasing to the Lord. Absolutely. 100% true. But we don't. No one does. When we disobey, we invite God's chastisement into our lives. But that chastisement never involves the loss of salvation. 1 Corinthians 3:15 teaches this. Righteousness is imputed without any works needed before or after salvation. (Romans 4:5-6).

God's chastisements can bring a loss of joy, deep sorrow and grief, or sickness.

But, if the believer will not turn from his wickedness, God's chastisement can even lead to an early death:

"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (1 Corinthians 5:5).

But the believer remains saved.

Now, as far as a Christian who stops believing, yet still remains saved:

If it were not so, than salvation, yet again, would cease to be a gift, and instead becomes an obligation. And the questions that need to be asked would be:

"How long could one stop believing before salvation is lost - a second, a minute, an hour, or a day?"

"If one stops believing and salvation is lost, yet begins to believe again, is salvation regained? If so, how many gains/loses of salvation will God allow?"

"If one stops believing in a moment of anger, loss, sickness, or grief, does God overlook those?"

Simply: Salvation is either a gift with no strings attached, or it's not. It's either all of grace, or it's a mixture of faith and works. If works play no part, God gets all the glory and credit for our salvation. If works play any part, we can share in God's glory and have the right to boast.

I wish I had more time to get to all of your posts, but I'm absolutely pressed. I will try my best to set up a debate with you. Again, hopefully later next week.

Thanks for being civil in your post. This is the issue I have with your argument

a. You believe in a dual nature of flesh and Spirit, which I agree with

b. You believe that the New Nature is sinless, cannot sin. Ok, don't have a problem with that.

c. You believe the believer can sin IN THE FLESH all he wants. This I take issue with.

Show me scripture that says a believer can sin all they want.

SO where are the OSAS people who were saying "Noone here teaches 'POINT C"?

 

[Macabeus]

I hear ya and my comment was facetious based upon the incessant argument over sin and fruit that was taking place HAH

IN other words, I'm talking too much about the PRACTICAL part of Christianity.

Let's just keep going over the milk over and over and over again and reject the meat till Jesus comes back

How you thrive on milk, but reject my meat. Keith Green

 

[Macabeus]

Good stuff Budman! Amen!

I believe in preservation but not OSAS for this very reason. People really do believe that OSAS means that a Christian can sin all he or she wants I suspected it, but it was rejected so many times by OSAS people that I thought maybe I was wrong, but now Bud, DC, and John 146 confirm it. At least some of you think that OSAS gives people a license to sin as much as they want. Ok, then.

 

[Macabeus]

Hiya, Bigmac!

I read your offer of a debate and I might have some time later next week. I've been incredibly busy with work and family issues atm. But real quick, as I'm pressed for time even now, let me give some clarity to my statements.

As far as a Christian sinning all they want and continuing to be saved...

You, I, and every other believer already do this. So I really don't see what the issue here is. We sin every day either by thought, word, or deed. We sin even more than we are aware, as God's requires absolute perfection to be saved. Salvation is a gift via grace - God's unmerited favor. To add a single requirement to it negates it as such. It turns salvation into a merit based system. How many works are needed? How many sins will cause one to lose it? Nobody ever has the specifics.

And once again: Christians should live a life that is pleasing to the Lord. Absolutely. 100% true. But we don't. No one does. When we disobey, we invite God's chastisement into our lives. But that chastisement never involves the loss of salvation. 1 Corinthians 3:15 teaches this. Righteousness is imputed without any works needed before or after salvation. (Romans 4:5-6).

God's chastisements can bring a loss of joy, deep sorrow and grief, or sickness.

But, if the believer will not turn from his wickedness, God's chastisement can even lead to an early death:

"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (1 Corinthians 5:5).

But the believer remains saved.

Now, as far as a Christian who stops believing, yet still remains saved:

If it were not so, than salvation, yet again, would cease to be a gift, and instead becomes an obligation. And the questions that need to be asked would be:

"How long could one stop believing before salvation is lost - a second, a minute, an hour, or a day?"

"If one stops believing and salvation is lost, yet begins to believe again, is salvation regained? If so, how many gains/loses of salvation will God allow?"

"If one stops believing in a moment of anger, loss, sickness, or grief, does God overlook those?"

Simply: Salvation is either a gift with no strings attached, or it's not. It's either all of grace, or it's a mixture of faith and works. If works play no part, God gets all the glory and credit for our salvation. If works play any part, we can share in God's glory and have the right to boast.

I wish I had more time to get to all of your posts, but I'm absolutely pressed. I will try my best to set up a debate with you. Again, hopefully later next week.

Someone brought up a good point in another thread. If a person is a Christian, their desire will not be to sin, but their desire will be to purify themselves. 1 JOHN 3:3. this is a descriptive passage of a Christian.

 

[dcontroversal]

I believe in preservation but not OSAS for this very reason. People really do believe that OSAS means that a Christian can sin all he or she wants I suspected it, but it was rejected so many times by OSAS people that I thought maybe I was wrong, but now Bud, DC, and John 146 confirm it. At least some of you think that OSAS gives people a license to sin as much as they want. Ok, then.

And all liars will have their part in the lake of fire.....false accusations <---one of 7 things God hates.....how does that help your false preservation dogma......?? Finally the truth comes out.......another helper of JESUS to keep himself saved....no wonder you miss the mark on so many things.....

 

[Macabeus]

And all liars will have their part in the lake of fire.....false accusations <---one of 7 things God hates.....how does that help your false preservation dogma......?? Finally the truth comes out.......another helper of JESUS to keep himself saved....no wonder you miss the mark on so many things.....

How is the doctrine of "perserverance" helping Jesus to keep us saved. Maybe you should look the doctrine up and not speak foolishly of things you do not understand.

 

[Macabeus]

s

And all liars will have their part in the lake of fire.....false accusations <---one of 7 things God hates.....how does that help your false preservation dogma......?? Finally the truth comes out.......another helper of JESUS to keep himself saved....no wonder you miss the mark on so many things.....

Red letters in quote added by me for emphasis...

SO are you saying God does not preserve us? Are you denying the doctrine of PRESERVATION?

 

[Macabeus]

And all liars will have their part in the lake of fire.....false accusations <---one of 7 things God hates.....how does that help your false preservation dogma......?? Finally the truth comes out.......another helper of JESUS to keep himself saved....no wonder you miss the mark on so many things.....

I started a new thread on the question "Does OSAS teach that a Christian can sin as much as he wants and still be saved. I have had several responses. WE can continue the discussion over there if you like.

 

[Macabeus]

And all liars will have their part in the lake of fire.....false accusations <---one of 7 things God hates.....how does that help your false preservation dogma......?? Finally the truth comes out.......another helper of JESUS to keep himself saved....no wonder you miss the mark on so many things.....

You do turn it into a license to sin, when you say as Bud did that you can sin all you want and your new nature is sinless. That is classic antinomian doctrine, and may come close to Gnosticism too.

 

[John146]

I believe in preservation but not OSAS for this very reason. People really do believe that OSAS means that a Christian can sin all he or she wants I suspected it, but it was rejected so many times by OSAS people that I thought maybe I was wrong, but now Bud, DC, and John 146 confirm it. At least some of you think that OSAS gives people a license to sin as much as they want. Ok, then.

Paul addresses this thought of “a license to sin” idea and he says “God forbid.” This should not be the thought of the believer.

Do I sin? Absolutely, regularly, but not because of some license to sin, but because I am still a sinful man living in a sinful body of flesh in a sin filled world. One day, I’ll put off this flesh and will be redeemed.

How often do you sin in deed, word, or thought? Speed much? Roll through stop signs? Things you know you should do but don’t? Worldly movies, tv shows, music? So much more...

 

[John146]

You do turn it into a license to sin, when you say as Bud did that you can sin all you want and your new nature is sinless. That is classic antinomian doctrine, and may come close to Gnosticism too.

Paul told those immature sinful Corinthians speaking of their new nature, not their actual practice:

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[Macabeus]

And all liars will have their part in the lake of fire.....false accusations <---one of 7 things God hates.....how does that help your false preservation dogma......?? Finally the truth comes out.......another helper of JESUS to keep himself saved....no wonder you miss the mark on so many things.....

LIke when you lied and said Argueless accused you of lying to the Holy Spirit? That kind of lie?

 

[dcontroversal]

LIke when you lied and said Argueless accused you of lying to the Holy Spirit? That kind of lie?

He did accuse me....read the entire thread pal....then come back and flapjack........

 

[Macabeus]

He did accuse me....read the entire thread pal....then come back and flapjack........

Only have to read one. You accused him of saying that in this post. Anyone with a fourth grade reading comprehension can see that there is no accusation of lying to the Holy Spirit here. Unless you doh't know what stance means.

I thought you said you would go away in SHAME.....

Argueless said:
...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things GOD'S WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6-7

Is it obedience to God to LIE TO THE HOLY SPIRIT? Would God be pleased by lying to Him? Do you SOW to please the Spirit?

...DO NOT BE DECEIVED: GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED. A man reaps what he sows. The one who SOWS TO PLEASE THE SINFUL NATURE, from that nature WILL REAP DESTRUCTION; the one who SOWS TO PLEASE THE SPIRIT, from the Spirit WILL REAP ETERNAL LIFE. Galatians 6:7-8

Go and know for yourself what dcon's stance is re: LYING TO THE HOLY SPIRIT...then maybe you can share to us what your "HONEST and full of INTEGRITY" mentor have told you. I do expect that he will respond to you unless he's hiding something.

So where did he say you lied to the Holy Spirit IN THIS POST? Because this was the post you reported, was it not? Or do I have to pull up the quote where you said you reported it.

Hint...commenting on your STANCE on lying to the Holy Spirit (in reference to your answer regarding Ananais and Saphira is not accusing you of lying to the Holy Spirit. You know this, you just don't have the honesty to admit it, and it's been pointed out to you several times.

So where did he say you lied to the Holy Spirit. Highlight the words in red so we can see it. Or else, we can only assume you are hiding behind your five person amen corner.

 

[dcontroversal]

Only have to read one. You accused him of saying that in this post. Anyone with a fourth grade reading comprehension can see that there is no accusation of lying to the Holy Spirit here. Unless you doh't know what stance means.



So where did he say you lied to the Holy Spirit IN THIS POST? Because this was the post you reported, was it not? Or do I have to pull up the quote where you said you reported it.

Hint...commenting on your STANCE on lying to the Holy Spirit (in reference to your answer regarding Ananais and Saphira is not accusing you of lying to the Holy Spirit. You know this, you just don't have the honesty to admit it, and it's been pointed out to you several times.

So where did he say you lied to the Holy Spirit. Highlight the words in red so we can see it. Or else, we can only assume you are hiding behind your five person amen corner.

Like I said PAL.....read the ENTIRE thread until then.....do not address me with your drivel....and make sure and read his other two names he posted under Macaroni....

 

[Macabeus]

Like I said PAL.....read the ENTIRE thread until then.....do not address me with your drivel....and make sure and read his other two names he posted under Macaroni....

Was the post I quoted the one you reported as saying you lied to the Holy Ghost, Yes or no?

Let me know asap, because I want to exit.

 

[Macabeus]

Paul told those immature sinful Corinthians speaking of their new nature, not their actual practice:

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

That verse comes right after 1 Cor. 6:9-10. So you think Paul is saying that only their new nature is free from fornication, idolatry, adultery, homosexuality, sodomy, theft, coveting, drunkenness, reviling and extortion, but in actual practice they still do these things?

Because you said he was speaking of their new nature, not actual practice. That would kind of hint that they were still doing the things in 1 Cor. 6:9-10, but Paul said that those who do such things will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God.