Fallen angels, humanity and Enoch

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RachelBibleStudent

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#21
#21
Deadtosin said:
Rachel, the fact its in the dead sea scrolls is not what makes me think twice, its the fact it predates Christianity.
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there was actually a whole genre of 'enochian literature' predating christianity...during the post exilic period and later there was a widespread production of writings that 'fill in the blanks' in genesis and other old testament books with superstition and fiction...enoch was a popular subject for those kinds of writings...

the 'book of enoch' that some christians advocate for today is just a small part of that mass of mythologized old testament 'reboot' literature...there is absolutely nothing unique about it...
 
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faroukfarouk

Banned
#22
Feb 21, 2014
5,672
18
0
#22
RachelBibleStudent said:
there was actually a whole genre of 'enochian literature' predating christianity...during the post exilic period and later there was a widespread production of writings that 'fill in the blanks' in genesis and other old testament books with superstition and fiction...enoch was a popular subject for those kinds of writings...

the 'book of enoch' that many christians advocate for today is just a small part of that mass of mythologized old testament 'reboots'...there is absolutely nothing unique about it...
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Do you have a Hebrew Christian heritage yourself, Ms. Rachel? you are very knowledgeable, anyway, about Jewish history. Blessings.
 
Deadtosin

Deadtosin

Banned
#23
Mar 18, 2011
2,540
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#23
Rachel if any of this book predates Christianity and I see Jesus in it, that is going to be amazing. As of now in the very beginning I see the new testament all over this! I'm excited.. try to burst my bubble but my bubble isn't even in your yard lol ps I don't need anyone to ever agree with me. My relationship with Jesus is a private one. Though I do love you all and wish you the best, I will always walk where I believe I'm led and God won't hold that against me.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#24
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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#24
The_highwayman said:
You should read this only as a historical reference and not allow yourself to apply it as you do the inspired scriptures. I personally enjoyed reading this one and the Book of Jasher, but would never teach/preach anything out of either one.

There is credible evidence that Enoch had some very powerful revelations from God, but God chose not to allow the Book of Enoch to be put into the Bible. I also agree with your stance on Jude and Jude did quote directly from Enoch, but that does not make the Book of Enoch part of Holy cannon.

Take as historical and interesting, but don't ever confuse it with the truth of the Bible.
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I have scanned both books as well (key word scanned) and found nothing in particular that contradicts scriptures...it is interesting that the bible quotes/references both Enoch and Jasher and or alludes to them no less that 5-6 times throughout scriptures....2 or 3 witnesses were required under the law so as to adjudicate a (case) if you will and has made me wonder about the validity of the books in mention.
 
Deadtosin

Deadtosin

Banned
#25
Mar 18, 2011
2,540
22
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#25
so book 1 chapter 8 we are still way back in time, we are still before Noah. These demons just came down from heaven and are teaching people eternal information. " how to make swords, knives, shields, breastplates, and making known the art of working all metals- for bracelets, ornaments, antimony and eye shadow apparently.. sounds like Egypt. Well any of those ancient civilizations.
then another taught, astrology, constellations, knowledge of clouds, signs of the earth, signs of the sun, the course of the moon. (-all alive and well today- I'm reminded of Jesus' statement. "as the days of Noah were. "
I know there is a lot more they teach including how to perform abortions but that is in book 2 I believe. We will take this step by step.)

here in chapter 10 verse 9 I see Azazel is ascribed all sin, which means it is either the first real contradiction from the bible or Azazel somehow is satan himself, or there is something more than just original sin lurking around-ORR maybe he means -of the current world all daily sin is a biproduct of the eternal knowledge they've been granted.
I could definitely see that of our time. but I'll have to look into that.

here in verse 12 he is binding demons until the day of judgement if I'm not mistaken there were chained demons to be released in the last days but again I'll have to look into it unless someone posts information I can validate about these things.

I suddenly find at the end of chapter 12 an almost confusing part where Enoch is with the watchers, now the fallen were also called the watchers and here he is calling them holy ones and saying he is glorifying the King of the ages- but then he is asked to go to the watchers who left the high heaven who have defiled themselves and give them a message

suddenly I realize that the watchers he is with are Gods angels and of course the King of the ages is God.

It still appears Azazel may be the leader of the fallen host, he does obviously hold importance, I will have to look into the many names of satan and see if this is a possibility.

　
wow, this is getting intense, and in the midst of this amazing experience he is describing Jesus- clearly, so bright and white and there are 10,000 times 10,000 holy ones standing before Him nor did they leave Him at night nor depart from him. I definitely have a picture like I have of revelations while I read it.

this is really a detailed message of how all these demons came to be.. and where all of the crazy evil and its knowledge has come from. Highwayman you were right this is an enjoyable read.
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#26
#26
Deadtosin said:
Rachel if any of this book predates Christianity and I see Jesus in it, that is going to be amazing. As of now in the very beginning I see the new testament all over this!
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messianic predictions were also a popular form of literature at the time...and many of the 'predictions' were simply paraphrased without citation from the same old testament prophecies that were fulfilled in the new testament...

so it should not be anything amazing that you are 'seeing jesus' in a fabricated document that incorporates plagiarized old testament messianic prophecy...
 
Deadtosin

Deadtosin

Banned
#27
Mar 18, 2011
2,540
22
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#27
RachelBibleStudent said:
messianic predictions were also a popular form of literature at the time...and many of the 'predictions' were simply paraphrased without citation from the same old testament prophecies that were fulfilled in the new testament...

so it should not be anything amazing that you are 'seeing jesus' in a fabricated document that incorporates plagiarized old testament messianic prophecy...
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I'll be sure to keep that in mind and research each one as I come across them. Thank you for the thought
 
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Karraster

Guest
#28
#28
The question of "how pure are any books supposedly inspired?" could be asked of any post original. If it does not contradict the Bible, why can't it be used for additional understanding?

Personally, reading Enoch caused me to understand better, why God must destroy the Earth's surface with fire. Gene tampering is going on today, animal, vegetable and mineral, just as in the days of Noah.
 
iamsoandso

iamsoandso

Senior Member
#29
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
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#29
minus----6000 years,,,i tend to believe god over man's thinking,,,that is Adam was created a living human at age 9 months and one day?,and the angels bottle fed him baby formula?,,,and years later he was put in a deep sleep and the woman was taken out from his rib and Adam changed his mates diapers and fed her goats milk till she grew old enough to give him sons????,,,,that is Adam was created an mature man,,,and the woman from his ribs a mature woman,,,,,and the earth they were set in "ALSO IN A MATURE STATE OF CREATION",,,,
 
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Karraster

Guest
#30
#30
iamsoandso said:
minus----6000 years,,,i tend to believe god over man's thinking,,,that is Adam was created a living human at age 9 months and one day?,and the angels bottle fed him baby formula?,,,and years later he was put in a deep sleep and the woman was taken out from his rib and Adam changed his mates diapers and fed her goats milk till she grew old enough to give him sons????,,,,that is Adam was created an mature man,,,and the woman from his ribs a mature woman,,,,,and the earth they were set in "ALSO IN A MATURE STATE OF CREATION",,,,
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I may regret asking, but where does that come from?
 
Deadtosin

Deadtosin

Banned
#31
Mar 18, 2011
2,540
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#31
hmmm complicated post there so and so, it begins with God, fills in with random doubt and ends with truth.
 
iamsoandso

iamsoandso

Senior Member
#32
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
1,609
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#32
Karraster said:
I may regret asking, but where does that come from?
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"seed in it's self",,,from the beginning,,,all of the creation was created in a state of "seed in it's own self",,,so none of the original creation needed to mature and develop it's seed "in it's own self",,,,so god is telling us that at the creation all of the creation was in a mature state "with it's reproductive seed in it's state of reproduction",,,,the whole creation,,,,,,,
 
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Donkeyfish07

Guest
#33
#33
The_highwayman said:
There are also part of the Book of Enoch and the Secrets of Enoch, that refute the Bible. I will leave it to your own study and diligence to discover this.
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Which part(s) are you referring to? I'm not so concerned about the secrets of enoch if that's a separate text, I've never heard of that one.
 
iamsoandso

iamsoandso

Senior Member
#34
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
1,609
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#34
that is if we consider the things mentioned in scripture,everything was created "with it's seed already in it",,,so at the beginning of creation the flowers were already created blooming,,,the trees were full of seed,,,that is in creation the process of birth was immediate,,,there were already trees that had fallen down and were decaying,,,,,,,
 
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Donkeyfish07

Guest
#35
#35
Karraster said:
The question of "how pure are any books supposedly inspired?" could be asked of any post original. If it does not contradict the Bible, why can't it be used for additional understanding?
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I'm very cautious about taking the books in question as seriously as the Bible as we have always known it......but the fact that some of those books are directly quoted in the "inspired" scripture and others are referred to by name specifically (Like the book of Jasher, Book of Jubilees).....make them at the very least worthy of reading.
 
iamsoandso

iamsoandso

Senior Member
#36
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
1,609
113
#36
eventually we will recon it to the end thereof,,"from the dust created he man",,,,then we will seek to find the tree that grew and died and rotted and turned to dust,,,that the man was formed from,and the elements gathered together that the dead tree grew in,before the lord caused it to rain on the earth because there was not yet an man to till it,,,,,,,,
 
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danalee

Guest
#37
#37
Deadtosin said:
Book of Enoch: Book 1: Watchers

that link will take you to the actual text. You will find Judes reference literally in the 9th verse
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I've read it. I do believe it to a certain degree as well, but I know from my personal experience that God wants me to not focus on it so much, but what I can do to protect myself from it. I think it's good to understand that this world is satan's kingdom - and most Christians are so embedded away from it they may not know because they've taken measures to avoid this kind of influence. That's good and bad at the same time. Good that they are protected, but bad if they don't know how to help someone else with these kinds of influences. Satan and his fallen have a plan to upend the glory of God, his children. You only need to look at the amount of occultism that people are practicing these days to confirm the worship of these dark spirits and their power to keep people away from being saved.
 
D

danalee

Guest
#38
#38
Deadtosin said:
so book 1 chapter 8 we are still way back in time, we are still before Noah. These demons just came down from heaven and are teaching people eternal information. " how to make swords, knives, shields, breastplates, and making known the art of working all metals- for bracelets, ornaments, antimony and eye shadow apparently.. sounds like Egypt. Well any of those ancient civilizations.
then another taught, astrology, constellations, knowledge of clouds, signs of the earth, signs of the sun, the course of the moon. (-all alive and well today- I'm reminded of Jesus' statement. "as the days of Noah were. "
I know there is a lot more they teach including how to perform abortions but that is in book 2 I believe. We will take this step by step.)

here in chapter 10 verse 9 I see Azazel is ascribed all sin, which means it is either the first real contradiction from the bible or Azazel somehow is satan himself, or there is something more than just original sin lurking around-ORR maybe he means -of the current world all daily sin is a biproduct of the eternal knowledge they've been granted.
I could definitely see that of our time. but I'll have to look into that.

here in verse 12 he is binding demons until the day of judgement if I'm not mistaken there were chained demons to be released in the last days but again I'll have to look into it unless someone posts information I can validate about these things.

I suddenly find at the end of chapter 12 an almost confusing part where Enoch is with the watchers, now the fallen were also called the watchers and here he is calling them holy ones and saying he is glorifying the King of the ages- but then he is asked to go to the watchers who left the high heaven who have defiled themselves and give them a message

suddenly I realize that the watchers he is with are Gods angels and of course the King of the ages is God.

It still appears Azazel may be the leader of the fallen host, he does obviously hold importance, I will have to look into the many names of satan and see if this is a possibility.

　
wow, this is getting intense, and in the midst of this amazing experience he is describing Jesus- clearly, so bright and white and there are 10,000 times 10,000 holy ones standing before Him nor did they leave Him at night nor depart from him. I definitely have a picture like I have of revelations while I read it.

this is really a detailed message of how all these demons came to be.. and where all of the crazy evil and its knowledge has come from. Highwayman you were right this is an enjoyable read.
Click to expand...
BTW, they are worshipping Azazel now. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that name come out of an occultist's mouth. So if that doesn't give it credence I don't know what else it means.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
#39
#39
danalee said:
I've read it. I do believe it to a certain degree as well, but I know from my personal experience that God wants me to not focus on it so much, but what I can do to protect myself from it. I think it's good to understand that this world is satan's kingdom - and most Christians are so embedded away from it they may not know because they've taken measures to avoid this kind of influence. That's good and bad at the same time. Good that they are protected, but bad if they don't know how to help someone else with these kinds of influences. Satan and his fallen have a plan to upend the glory of God, his children. You only need to look at the amount of occultism that people are practicing these days to confirm the worship of these dark spirits and their power to keep people away from being saved.
Click to expand...
I agree. Especially if you have young ones, to educate yourself about the tricks of the day used by satan, to recognize whether those entrusted to you are being influenced. At the same time, not giving power to the deceiver by obsessing over him.

Everyone should be aware that the entertainment industry is heavily influenced by satan, even cartoons.

Pray over your children every day, that they not be deceived. Remain vigilant.
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#40
#40
Deadtosin said:
here in chapter 10 verse 9 I see Azazel is ascribed all sin, which means it is either the first real contradiction from the bible or Azazel somehow is satan himself, or there is something more than just original sin lurking around-ORR maybe he means -of the current world all daily sin is a biproduct of the eternal knowledge they've been granted.
I could definitely see that of our time. but I'll have to look into that.
Click to expand...
'azazel' is actually the hebrew word for the scapegoat that the israelites would annually send off into the wilderness on the day of atonement...

the etymology is that 'ez' means 'goat' and 'azal' means 'to depart'...so 'azazel' is the 'goat that departs'...the scapegoat...

early jewish mystics later reinterpreted the ritual of the scapegoat to mean that a goat was sent out into the wilderness to be consumed by a demon called azazel...this idea was very likely incorporated in the 'jewish fables' and 'worship of angels' that paul condemns in titus 1:14 and colossians 2:18...to this day the idea that there is a fallen angel named azazel remains a popular notion in the world of the occult...

the book of enoch draws on a lot of ancient occultic traditions so it is not surprising that the myth of a demon called azazel appears there...

but this highlights the primary value of the book of enoch...it represents a vast selection of many of the wrong guesses made by jews before the coming of christ...notions that jesus and the early church no doubt had to go up against...
 
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