Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

[valiant]

does no[/I]t mean “to perceive or realize;” it means “to arrive at a knowledge of someone or something, know about, make acquaintance of” (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, Third Edition, The University of Chicago Press, 2000.

ginosko means to know, to come to know, to learn of, to ascertain, to find out, to understand, to comprehend, to perceive, to notice, to realise, to acknowledge, to recognise (among others). (Arndt & Gingrich lexicon).

so any argument using ginosko has first to determine its meaning from the context.

In Rom 1.21 it clearly means to learn about,.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

They are all the same word, but conjugated to express different parts of speech! γνόντεσ is the active aorist participle of the cognate verb γινώσκω, the form of the word found in lexicons.

ginosko means to know, to come to know, to learn of, to ascertain, to find out, to understand, to comprehend, to perceive, to notice, to realise, to acknowledge, to recognise (among others). (Arndt & Gingrich lexicon).

so any argument using ginosko has first to determine its meaning from the context.

In Rom 1.21 it clearly means to learn about,.

The range of meaning of the word γινώσκω (ginōskō) is from "ascertain, aware" to "comprehend, understand, understood":

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Word Origin

from a prim. root gnó-

Definition

to come to know, recognize, perceive


NASB Translation


ascertaining (1), aware (7), certainty (1), come to know (1), comprehend (1), felt (1), find (3), found (2), kept...a virgin* (1), knew (13), know (104), know how (1), knowing (3), known (25), knows (14), learn (1), learned (1), perceived (1), perceiving (2), put (1), realize (3), recognize (7), recognized (1), recognizing (1), sure (4), take notice (1), unaware* (2), understand (11), understood (6), virgin* (1).

NAS Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries
Copyright © 1981, 1998 by The Lockman Foundation
All rights reserved Lockman.org

I believe Rom 1:21 means that that they were aware of God as opposed to coming to a full understanding or comprehension of God.

 

[FranC]

Well, I suppose you are now going to tell me that a person can come to an intimate relationship with God through observation of creation even though he/she is suppressing the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18).




My common sense tells me that when you change the word "them" (plural) to "you" (singular) you change Scripture to something which was never intended by the Author.




And again, the word KNEW runs the gamut of awareness to intimate knowledge.

You place your money on "intimate knowlege" like you would "know" your mother, father, sibiling, spouse.

I place my money on "aware" like you might "know" Paul Hewson.




What you are doing is changing the whole section of Romans 1:18-32 to God's wrath being revealed toward only those who were at one time true believers but who have now rejected and walked away.

What about those who never come to a true faith in God? They now have an excuse because they never had a "true" faith in God?

Your "common sense" conclusion is lacking in credibility.

I dare say that you don't have to take my word for anything.

I would, however, suggest reading the New Testament over again and this time with an open mind.

Your common may or may not be trusted depending on your relationship with God and the KNOWLEDGE of Him.

 

[FranC]

The range of meaning of the word γινώσκω (ginōskō) is from "ascertain, aware" to "comprehend, understand, understood":




I believe Rom 1:21 means that that they were aware of God as opposed to coming to a full understanding or comprehension of God.

You say "I believe".
Some persons KNOW FOR SURE.

And I don't mean anybody on this forum.
Why not go to a good, bible teaching Church?

That might be a good idea.

 

[valiant]

I dare say that you don't have to take my word for anything.

I would, however, suggest reading the New Testament over again and this time with an open mind.

Your common may or may not be trusted depending on your relationship with God and the KNOWLEDGE of Him.

Romans 1.18 was in context a condemnation of all gentiles. So they all certainly didn't KNOW God intimately. What Paul says is that they knew about Him but were in darkness.

 

[FranC]

Instead of explaining the truth to FranC, you posted false information,



They are all the same word, but conjugated to express different parts of speech! γνόντεσ is the active aorist participle of the cognate verb γινώσκω, the form of the word found in lexicons.



The word ‘know’ in Rom. 1: 21 does not mean “to perceive or realize;” it means “to arrive at a knowledge of someone or something, know about, make acquaintance of” (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, Third Edition, The University of Chicago Press, 2000.

Examples of this usage include the following,

Rom. 1:21. διότι γνόντες τὸν Θεὸν οὐχ ὡς Θεὸν ἐδόξασαν ἢ εὐχαρίστησαν, ἀλλ᾿ ἐματαιώθησαν ἐν τοῖς διαλογισμοῖς αὐτῶν, καὶ ἐσκοτίσθη ἡ ἀσύνετος αὐτῶν καρδία·

Rom. 1:21. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

γνόντεσ is the active aorist participle of the cognate verb γινώσκω. The form of the word found in lexicons. γινώσκω is used three times in John 14:7,

John 14:7. εἰ ἐγνώκειτέ με, καὶ τὸν πατέρα μου γνώκειτε ἄν. καὶ ἀπ᾿ ἄρτι γινώσκετε αὐτὸν καὶ ἑωράκατε αὐτόν.

John 14:7. “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.” (NASB, 1995)


It is also used in John 17:3,

John 17:3 αὕτη δέ ἐστιν ἡ αἰώνιος ζωή, ἵνα γινώσκωσι σὲ τὸν μόνον ἀληθινὸν Θεὸν καὶ ὃν ἀπέστειλας ᾿Ιησοῦν Χριστόν.

John 17:3. “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (NASB, 1995)


It is also used in 2 Cor. 5:16,

2 Cor. 5:16 ῞Ωστε ἡμεῖς ἀπὸ τοῦ νῦν οὐδένα οἴδαμεν κατὰ σάρκα· εἰ δὲ καὶ ἐγνώκαμεν κατὰ σάρκα Χριστόν, ἀλλὰ νῦν οὐκέτι γινώσκομεν.

2 Cor. 5:16. Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. (NASB, 1995)

To which you replied,



They are all the same word, but conjugated to express different parts of speech! γνόντεσ is the active aorist participle of the cognate verb γινώσκω, the form of the word found in lexicons.

Sagart,
There is much false information on these posts and threads.

I, for one, have difficulty with this.
It makes me wonder if EVERYONE goes to reformed, Calvinist churches.

I do believe that the majority of churches are not Calvinist in nature.

I find it interesting how some will believe Mr. Calvin, but not those who KNEW, in person, and were taught, by John the Apostle.
This is difficult to comprehend.

Maybe they just like to believe an "easy gospel". Easy believism, is what it is termed by a pastor and counsellor that I know, or maybe we could call it "cheap grace" since God's grace is cheapened by false doctrine that says it is not necessary for us to do anything in return for God's love. It does make God's love very cheap indeed.

We can post verses galore, but it would be nice if everyone just stopped and thought over what they believe.

WHERE in the N.T. does Jesus say that all we're to do is BELIEVE IN HIM. ALL WE'RE SUPPOSED TO DO. Jesus said that we're to believe in the one the Father sent. Then when I ask for an explanation of BELIEVE, all the Greek experts here, refrain from doing so because they know very well that if they gave the meaning of BELIEVE it would go against everything they "preach".
The best they could do is tell me that believing is from the heart and post some verses.

THIS IS NOT WHAT BELIEVE MEANS. It's rather surprising that the Greek experts do not plainly say what it means.

Of course, you're right about everything.
Keep up the good work --- it is much needed here.

 

[FranC]

ginosko means to know, to come to know, to learn of, to ascertain, to find out, to understand, to comprehend, to perceive, to notice, to realise, to acknowledge, to recognise (among others). (Arndt & Gingrich lexicon).

so any argument using ginosko has first to determine its meaning from the context.

In Rom 1.21 it clearly means to learn about,.

In Romans 1:21 you're clearly trying to make it mean what YOU would like it to mean.

Unfortunately, you are incorrect.
For the reasons I've already stated and will not repeat.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Romans 1.18 was in context a condemnation of all gentiles. So they all certainly didn't KNOW God intimately. What Paul says is that they knew about Him but were in darkness.

Romans 2
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.

 

[FranC]

So your Bible doesn't have in it John 6.39; 10.27-9; Titus 3.4-7; 1 Peter 1.2 and many more? I would get a new Bible if I were you



Yes we noticed that you do Actually the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is clearly taught in rom 3.21-8.30. It doesn't require any bias. Whom He justified , them He also glorified.



That's funny. I love it because it clearly teaches the eternal security of the true believer. Must be a different one LOL



well I believe in biased will. But even if I didn't, when Christ saves me I expect him to do it thoroughly. He saves me and keeps me saved, I merely respond.

What if you stop responding?

 

[FranC]

Romans 1.18 was in context a condemnation of all gentiles. So they all certainly didn't KNOW God intimately. What Paul says is that they knew about Him but were in darkness.

That's sooooooo far off, I'm not even ATTEMPTING to explain it to you.

Maybe a commentary would do you some good since the bible seems to be too difficult for you to understand.
yes. I'm being very sarcastic. Because the stuff I'm reading here is pretty rediculous.

 

[BillG]

What if you stop responding?

What does Jesus do if we stop responding or go astray.

What does he say about his sheep that have gone astray?

 

[BillG]

Actually what does Jesus say about his sheep?

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is a post about Ephesians 2:8-9 that has spoken to me of the completed work of Christ for us.

Quote:

Eph 2:8~~New American Standard Bible

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

The Believer's Study Bible writes that...

The full sense of the expression “you have been saved” is difficult to capture in English.

The Greek perfect tense emphasizes action initiated in the past, the effects of which continue into the present and beyond. Therefore, salvation has a moment of initiation in the past, but the results of that primary experience continue (Ed: See Three Tenses of Salvation).

This is another evidence of the permanence of our salvation, a doctrine which is called the “eternal security of the believer.” (Criswell, W A. Believer's Study Bible: New King James Version. 1991. Thomas Nelson)

Commenting on the significance of the tense of the two verbs "been" (present tense) and "saved" (perfect tense) Kenneth Wuest writes...

Not content with the details offered by the perfect tense, Paul uses a periphrastic construction (Ed note: a periphrasis is the use of a longer phrasing in place of a possible shorter form of expression = a roundabout way of expressing something.

In Greek it specifically means the use of a verb in any tense but aorist in combination with the verb eimi = to be as the auxiliary verb) consisting of the participle in the perfect tense and the verb of being in the present tense.

The perfect tense speaks of the existence of finished results in present time, whereas Paul wanted to express persistence of finished results through present time. So he borrows the durative aspect of the present tense verb to give persistence to the existing results.

The Expanded Translation reads: “By the grace have you been saved completely with the result that you are in a state of salvation which persists through present time.”

Present time in this instance is always the time at which the reader reads his statement. The security of the believer could not have been expressed in stronger terms.

(Wuest, Kenneth - The Practical Use of the Greek New Testament - Part II: The Eloquence of Greek Tenses and Moods - Bibliotheca Sacra: A quarterly published by Dallas Theological Seminary. Volume 117. Issue 466. Page 142) (Theological Journal Subscription info) (List of 22 journals - 500 yrs of articles searchable by topic or verse! Incredible Online Resource!)


Here is the link from a former member's post.

Verse for "once saved always saved"?

 

[Magenta]

Actually what does Jesus say about his sheep?

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

 

[Grace777x70]

We have to keep 2 aspects in mind when interpreting scriptures on salvation.

Works-based believers see the warning scriptures and "interpret" those to mean that one loses salvation as in going to be with the Lord for eternity.

We should be admonished to listen to these warning scriptures but let's get the proper foundation in the Lord down first so that these warning scriptures will be put in their proper place.

This type of mindset does not know the love and grace of God for people and thus they develop a fear based religion of works "to keep one saved".

1 John 4:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear,because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.

Salvation manifests itself here in this earth and also for going to be with the Lord because we are in Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believed as Paul said in Eph. 1:13 ; 4:30.

Start shooting heroin in your arms today and you will NOT experience salvation - that is life and wholeness on this earth for very long.

Confuse the 2 and we will come up with all kinds of works-based salvationists views - like we lose our righteousness. We don't have our "own" righteousness. Christ Himself is our righteousness.

I believe we have to differentiate between "going to heaven to be with the Lord " salvation and - "being saved from the things that can destroy us here while being on this earth."

There are different manifestations of salvation in Christ - one is going to be with the Lord - the other is concerning the things of this life on earth.

The promised land is a type of being in Christ now - it is not a type of heaven as there will be no giants to fight in heaven.

Moses did not get to rest in what God had already provided for the Israelites - but yet Moses is with God now.

The promised land is a type of living here on this earth by believing in the promises of God. Only Caleb and Joshua were the ones that got to experience the promises of God in the promised land because they believed in what God had said.

We can inherit now in this life some things that are of the kingdom of God because the kingdom of God is within us...however if we don't have our minds renewed to the truth in Christ ( which includes living by the Spirit within us ) - we can not experience the things of the kingdom that are available to us believers.

Scripture uses the same Greek word - " salvation, saved " = wholeness, preservation, keep safe, deliverance, make well - for both being saved from things in this life and for going to be with the Lord for eternity.

If we don't understand this difference we will continually be mis-applying scriptures that talk about "being saved here in this life from things" and "going to be with the Lord when we leave this earth because we are joined as one spirit with Him".

There is eternal salvation and there is a manifestation of salvation from temporal things while on this earth. Confuse the two and we end up with a mixed up message of self-effort for going to heaven and only the blood of Jesus does that.

Jesus is either our Savior for going to be in heaven with Him or we are our own savior by helping Him. One is by grace through faith-righteousness - the other is works-righteousness.

Let's just rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the things of Christ to us.

We are safe in the Lord Jesus Christ and we can trust Him to do what He has He will do and has already done for us.

We have a great salvation in Him! We can trust the Lord when He said "I will never leave you nor forsake you!" Jesus said that the Holy Spirit ewill be in us forever. John 14:16

The proper teaching of the gospel of Christ and what He has already done for us will provide the "nutrients" for the new creation in Christ which has been created in righteousness and holiness to manifest His life in and through us - and yes this also shows in our behavior.

As we have received Christ our Lord - so we walk in Him - and it is all by grace through faith. Col. 2:6

His love which is in us will come forth and bear much fruit. The behavior is a "fruit of salvation" - it does not produce salvation. Only Christ Himself is our true salvation - it is "in Him".

 

[BeyondET]

Interesting topic, (falling away from the faith) well Peter sure did fall right into to water, but he didn't drown Jesus helped him into the boat.

 

[BillG]

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

And those that disagree seem to say we can prise ourselevs out of Gods hand.

That being the case then given an arm wrestle I would win.

Anyone reading the above please don't think I'm being flippant and I certainly not saying it's a license to do what we want.

Just read the verses quoted above and think about it.

If Jesus is right then it's the truth, if not then it's a lie.

If if it's a lie then Jesus is a liar

 

[Magenta]

Interesting topic, (falling away from the faith) well Peter sure did fall right into to water, but he didn't drown Jesus helped him into the boat.

That's true, and also, Peter had not yet received the gift of the Holy Spirit when he attempted to follow Jesus' example of walking on water.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You say "I believe".
Some persons KNOW FOR SURE.

Believe = to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in.

And I don't mean anybody on this forum.
Why not go to a good, bible teaching Church?

That might be a good idea.

Quote from your earlier post:

I would, however, suggest reading the New Testament over again and this time with an open mind.

Your common may or may not be trusted depending on your relationship with God and the KNOWLEDGE of Him.

So when someone disagrees with you it is because they do not go to a "good, bible teaching Church" or they do not read Scripture with "an open mind" or their "relationship with God and the KNOWLEDGE of Him" is somehow lacking???

Your chutzpah is hilarious.

 

[Merc]

Oh saints of my Lord. It is grace and mercy always. Not by works or by power but by my spirit says my Lord. His word in us as believers can only flourish through faith in Him. Nothing I can do or say or think will change the love He has for me. To all whom have fallen short take courage you are not alone but His mercy and His grace due to His sacrifice on the cross is done finished and is poorer out on all. We argue of trivial things like can i loose my salvation NEVER or if it did his word would be a lie. We see things with our eyes and our understanding yet he tells us over and over again : My ways are not your ways My Thoughts are not your thoughts all of us have fallen short all of us have still that sinfully nature in us. Alone we are nothing But through Jesus we are new creatures in him. We can not see our brothers heart or know all which incompasses it. That's why Jesus says Love one another as yourself then He says love one another as I do no matter what.
Saints of the Father love his love made alive in us is the only ways for His Glory and truth to be manifest to others through these simple vessels of clay. His mercy on us all endures FOREVER and not what we think righteousness or obedience should be .
HIS LOVE is the only way.