Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

mailmandan · May 30, 2017

What's really something is you have no proper rebuttal for my posts and at least I'm spreading the truth of God's Word multiple times over. *That's much better than your multiple posts of hateful, trash talk.

Here's what I found:

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Are we justified by works? - Page 7 - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
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OSAS Question - Page 19 - Bibleforums.org
bibleforums.org/showthread.php/235842-OSAS-Question/page19
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SAVED BY WORKS - Page 51 - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
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Mar 20, 2015 - 20 posts - ‎8 authors
See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in ...

Praise the Lord! Many people are able to read the truth from these multiple posts.

You guess? How many of us can post an argument that has not been said before (at least in part) either from an article or commentary etc..? *What really matters is, "are we posting the truth?" I'm more concerned about testing what others say in light of what Scripture says, rather than playing an FBI agent "want to be" and looking to incriminate someone.

Are the voices in your head telling you that?

Rockrz · May 30, 2017

hateful, trash talk = what people say about those that dare to not agree with them... and keeps notes about it no less!

reneweddaybyday · May 30, 2017

Rockrz said:

Name-calling is the lowest form of argument in a debate. Because the name-caller cannot counter or address the central point (much less refute the point), he/she attacks the person in an attempt to devalue the other person's reasonings.

Not very effective ... all it does arouse the flesh.

Grace777x70 · May 30, 2017

reneweddaybyday said:

They are just baby Christians acting up in their flesh. They could be a Christian for 60 years, pastor a church for 30 years, read in Greek and Hebrew. Read the bible every day, pray 3 hours a day and still be a baby Christian. 1Peter 2;1-2 says we can tell their age by their behavior.

I just ignore them - bless them and mention their name for the Father to bless them and leave them in His hands. He will be faithful to them.

PeterJens · May 31, 2017

I would like to bring you to look at 2 John 1:8-11

Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them.
Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.

Now what is John so definitive about that you can fall away from and become a wicked work.

I ask that we love one another.
And this is love: that
we walk in obedience to his commands.
2 John 1:5-6

Now I am commanded to firstly, love which means walk in obedience to the commands
of Christ, and secondly to have nothing to do with those who do not bring this teaching.

John is saying such people are doing a wicked work.
Worse still he says they are.

Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist
1 John 2:7

So this should be a warning to those who so easily depart from the teaching of Christ.
Not only can you fall away from God you can become a deceiver and an antichrist.

Chris1975 · May 31, 2017

PeterJens said:

I would like to bring you to look at 2 John 1:8-11

Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them.
Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.

Now what is John so definitive about that you can fall away from and become a wicked work.

I ask that we love one another.
And this is love: that
we walk in obedience to his commands.
2 John 1:5-6

Now I am commanded to firstly, love which means walk in obedience to the commands
of Christ, and secondly to have nothing to do with those who do not bring this teaching.

John is saying such people are doing a wicked work.
Worse still he says they are.

Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist
1 John 2:7

So this should be a warning to those who so easily depart from the teaching of Christ.
Not only can you fall away from God you can become a deceiver and an antichrist.

Good post.

mailmandan · May 31, 2017

PeterJens said:

2 John 1:8 - Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. Is salvation/eternal life a reward that we work for and earn or is it a gift? *See Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8. *Also, in Romans 4:5, we read - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 - each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; (of reward, no full reward there) but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. *Notice suffer loss of reward, not salvation.

*In verse 9, we find two different camps. 1. "Those who transgress and do not abide in the doctrine of Christ do not have God" and 2. "those who abide in the doctrine of Christ and have both the Father and the Son." *There is no third camp. Anyone who who goes on ahead (goes out from us - 1 John 2:19) DOES NOT abide in Jesus' teaching and DOES NOT have God. NEVER DID.

Now what is John so definitive about that you can fall away from and become a wicked work.

I ask that we love one another.
And this is love: that
we walk in obedience to his commands.
2 John 1:5-6

Click to expand...

Nothing mentioned here about falling away and losing salvation.

Now I am commanded to firstly, love which means walk in obedience to the commands
of Christ, and secondly to have nothing to do with those who do not bring this teaching.

Click to expand...

Where in this exhortation does John mention "falling away" and "losing salvation?"

John is saying such people are doing a wicked work.
Worse still he says they are.

Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist
1 John 2:7

Click to expand...

Verse 7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

So this should be a warning to those who so easily depart from the teaching of Christ.
Not only can you fall away from God you can become a deceiver and an antichrist.

Click to expand...

These deceivers and antichrists who do not abide in the doctrine of Christ were NEVER saved.

Grace777x70 · May 31, 2017

2 John is a wonderful little book that speaks of the security of the believer in Christ.

Here John is saying that the truth will be in you forever. Jesus is the Truth. The Spirit of God is called the Spirit of Truth and Grace.

Paul says in Eph. 1:13 after hearing of Christ - we believed and were sealed with the Holy Spirit. Jesus said the Holy Spirit will be in us forever. Jesus is NOT a liar.

2 John 1:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] The elder to the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:

2 John 1:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

Works-based/ works-righteousness believers that deny the work of Christ are actually the very ones that are not abiding in "the teaching of Christ."

"Abiding in the teaching of Christ" is believing in the finished work of Christ only for salvation and living which all grace teachers encourage us to do.

Jesus said that He lived by the Father inside of Him. He said that it is the Father inside Him who is doing His works - not Jesus. He could do nothing of His own initiative.

As Jesus lived by the life of the Father in Him - with total dependence on His life - so we too live by the life of Christ inside of us manifesting His life as a fruit of our union as one spirit with Christ. We too can do nothing without Christ.

We live now from the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, the law of love, the law of liberty in Christ, the law of faith ( the law is NOT of faith ) , the law of Christ Himself.

Preach and teach the love and grace of God in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and Christians will have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him.

Some people have exchanged the life of Christ for a behavior modification program and thus nullify the very grace of God needed to walk in this world what the Lord has already done at the cross and resurrection.

PeterJens · May 31, 2017

Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.
2 John 1:8

There is discussion in commentators on the word "fully".
They imply from this you can still be saved but lose the rewards of service in Christ.

But the context is simple. If you do not teach the commands of Christ, you have become
a deceiver and an Anti-christ. To welcome such teachers is to participate in their "wicked works"

John emphasises this even more by saying such teachers do not have God, ie have left the faith.

Now in Jewish thinking we have the reward on earth being part of the family of God, and having
His blessing now, and further in heaven by being welcomed into the Kingdom.

So John is saying those who have received the blessing now on earth and walk in the Spirit,
they desire this might reach fulfillment in the full reward of entering heaven.

It is easy because the idea of falling away from Christ is so extreme to miss read one word
and thereby lose the context of Johns warning.

I remember feeling this very point, why even have this letter in scripture, it is just saying
you will lose a reward, no big thing. But losing salvation completely, becoming a participant
in the works of evil, just by saying one can compromise on Christs teaching, now that is very
important.

It has application here on this thread, and with members who contribute here on cc.
They are playing with their eternal future, and stand warned.

Grace777x70 · May 31, 2017

And this below is the difference between "works righteousness" and faith righteousness for salvation. ( as in going to be with the Lord when we die )

In the Old - you "did in order to get" In the New Covenant " you believe in order to receive" what Christ has already done. It's called the "word of faith" and it's enacted by speaking.

This is where works-based salvationists have a hard time with the gospel of the grace of Christ alone for salvation. They are mixing the covenants up and trying to do things in order to get and maintain salvation.

The pure gospel of the grace of Christ is offensive to this mindset and thus they need to do things in order to establish and maintain their own righteousness for salvation just like it was commanded in the Old Covenant.

In the New Covenant we receive Christ's righteousness because we believe NOT because "we do".

I have posted this at least 20x times in the past and many others have said the exact same thing in many ways but I'll do it once more so that you can have it as a record again and hopefully show what is really being said.

Doing righteous deeds by themselves does not make one righteous. This is having the cart before the horse.

I know there have been "good" people doing "righteous deeds " but they were not belonging to God. Many religions have moral living people in them - all doing "righteous deeds".

Here is how righteousness is manifested to a believer....we need to be righteousness conscious...not sin-conscious...we have a new creation in Christ now!

This "righteousness " that we already have now in our new creation ( the inner man ) is because we are in Christ - will manifest outwardly in doing righteous deeds - but we need the "horse" in front first.

The "horse" being Christ's righteousness in us because of our being in Christ in our inner man..our new creation in Christ.

Awake to who you are in Christ!..Awake to righteousness and sin not..when you see who you are in Him in your new man..you become like Him outwardly.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Hebrews 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 54:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "In righteousness you will be established; You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear; And from terror, for it will not come near you.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21[/SUP] He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

When you see who you are in Christ because of His finished work...you become outwardly in behavior what you are truly like in your new inner man where Christ dwells.

mailmandan · May 31, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Amen! That's what happens when regeneration is substituted for moral self reformation.

Grace777x70 · May 31, 2017

mailmandan said:

I agree....they do have a "zeal" for God but it is without understanding of the New Covenant and thus their need to create and maintain their own righteousness. This religion is no different from any other religion of the world and works on the very same principles.

Romans 10:2-4 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The law of Moses was based on "what you do or didn't do" for righteousness which is what every religion of the world is based on.

The New Covenant is a call to be "obedient to the faith" and believe in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection for righteousness and life.

This right believing will bring right thinking ( transformation of the mind ) which results in right living.

Preaching the love and grace of God in Christ brings His life and His fruit bearing in our lives. He is the Vine - we are the branches. He is our life - we have died with Him on the cross and have been raised to newness of life with Him. Now we are to grow in Him.

PeterJens · May 31, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

I have to laugh. I could name any group and just say they are the ones not doing
this or that, but I am not going to do this.

John is simple. Love one another, obey the teaching of Christ.
Again Jesus is simple. On the sermon on the mount, a wise man puts into practice the
commands of Christ, building on a rock.

Now John is simply saying obey Christ commands. If you teach anything else you are not of
Christ.

Now if someone immediately jumps up and says, Christ was only teaching to show how impossible
His teaching is, so you will never be able to obey but just know you need to rely on Him, you know
they are not teaching obey Christ.

It is true without the Holy Spirit and repentance and cleansing in your life, with a pure heart and
transformed mind, obeying Christ will be impossible, but this is our goal. With an open heart, sharing
love and understanding of both our frailty to sin, and our need of Christ, we will attain to the walk
of Jesus.

And you know this message is too hard for some, because whenever it is expounded, they jump up
with their opposition. They unfortunately are very close to being what John described as

"the deceiver and the antichrist"
2 John 1:7

So beware of their ways and teaching and know to participate with them

"shares in their wicked work"
2 John 1:11

As Jesus will say "Away from me, you evildoers" matt 7:23

Grace777x70 · May 31, 2017

We are saved by the life of the Lord Jesus Christ which is in us in our new creation. We are now learning how to walk by the spirit - which is our spirit in union with Christ by the Holy Spirit ( whom Jesus said would be in us forever - John 14:16 ).

Romans 5:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Living by the flesh does not stop making us a new creation in Christ. It makes us deceived by sin and distorts our view of the Lord's love and grace towards God Himself, others and ourselves.

I have found the very same thing happening in my life. The more I see Christ and what He has done - and the more I agree with His work - the more He becomes manifested in my life and the things of the flesh just have fallen off like dead leaves on a branch.

Transformation is really the emerging new man that is in Christ being manifested in our bodies while we are here on this earth.

This transformation of what already is in us in Christ in our new creation ( It is not called a "new evolution" ) can be seen by man as our minds get renewed to the truth of Christ's work for us. Rom. 12:2

We are simply "being" who we already are when we "put on Christ".

The new man in Christ is like the invisible man - when he put clothes on, people could then see him. We put on Christ and people see the new man in Christ manifested and God gets glorified.

This all happens by grace through faith in what Christ has done and we participate in it with Him for it is God who is at work in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. He will be faithful to us. Phil. 2:13

As we learn to walk by the spirit instead of the flesh - then we experience God's kind of life in our lives.

mailmandan · May 31, 2017

PeterJens said:

These many people in Matthew 7:22-23 will hear those words from Jesus because He NEVER KNEW THEM and not because they lost their salvation. Someone else is onto your deception in the "Not By Works" thread:

gb9 said:

PeterJens · May 31, 2017

As I have observed before, excuses come like the wind.

But listen to the truth. If the end is we walk in love and obedient to Christ, amen.
There are different ways of expressing this truth, but I fear many just preach deception.

The whole goal of some is to preach freedom to live as you like, because you are no longer
under condemnation.

The criticism is to say the false gospel is we change through striving to obey through discipline, self
control, faithfulness, perseverance, love, carrying ones cross, daily humbling with a contrite heart,
serving others, carrying one anothers burdens. No it is all just Christ does it supernaturally, we just
rest.

I do not fight for you. I just ask you to let Jesus's words abide in your heart and mind, and read
scripture night and day. Do this and you will find Christ. Rest in preachers and their teaching and
you will always end up deceived, because God alone is our teacher and author of our faith, the teachers
merely highlight teaching that has been given to our hearts. It is obvious what Jesus is teaching from
His word, you just have to open your heart to listen, and dwell in the things of the Most High.

This is Johns answer to people who opposed the teaching of the apostles.

I have written something to the church, but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge our authority. So if I come, I will bring up what he is doing, talking wicked nonsense against us.
3 John 1:9-10

Grace777x70 · May 31, 2017

I don't chafe at the term "our doing". We do participate in what God is doing in and through us.

What I would chafe at is the notion that we put "the doing" from ourselves by self-effort and not from the life of Christ in us. It's all a matter of where this "work originates" from - our flesh or from our inner man in Christ.

Outwardly they can look the same. I know that only God that looks on our heart can answer that question but it is subtle difference between works-based righteousness and faith-based righteousness.

Another term I use a lot that may throw some off is that I say we are to "rest" in the finished work of Christ. The word "rest" can bring the connotations that we do nothing which is not the truth. It's the exact opposite.

I won't speak for the others but as far as works or fruit go from a believer in Christ - here is what I believe when considering John Chapter 15 and the "works/fruit" of a believer.

Jesus is the Vine - we are the branches. The branch bears fruit..it does not produce it.

Without Him we can do nothing. We are to remain/abide/rest in the Lord - abide/remain/rest in the Lord and what He has done for us in His finished work. John 15

The life of the Vine supplies the "sap"needed for the bearing of fruit but it is His fruit that is produced in us.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not a lazy passive existence. When we know that God has already provided everything we need and we access His wisdom, provision, strength by faith - we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic and active life.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not an inactive lifestyle. It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in good works ( His fruit bearing in us ) that God had planned for us all along.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our obedience in action.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our warfare.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our faith in action. - we are fighting the good fight of faith

Hebrews 4:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

There is a vast difference between "us" doing things and the Lord doing things through and in us.

We can do things in our own flesh like Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by creating an Ishmael or wait for the Lord to work through us to produce the child of promise - Isaac. Galatians 4:22-24, 30

Psalm 127:1 (NASB)

Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.

Muzungu256 · May 31, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

sounds good but i really dont see this in action ever......... i think what happens is they take it as license to do evil........... that i see.

Grace777x70 · May 31, 2017

Muzungu256 said:

We don't need to water down the gospel because some might take it wrong. The Lord will bring them around.

If no one says "What?..are you saying people can just go and sin all we want now because of grace?" ..if no one says that - then you are not preaching the gospel of the grace of Christ.

No one is saying to go out and sin all you want now because of grace but people should be accusing you of saying that if you are really preaching the same gospel that Paul preached.

He was continuously slandered with this same accusation. In 4x times alone in Romans Paul had to come against those that were accusing Paul of being antinomian.

The grace of God teaches us how to live godly in this present world as Titus 2:11-12.

Sin is stupid and against our new nature in Christ which is created in righteousness and holiness. Sin is deceitful and will destroy us on this earth as well as those we love and ruins our witness for the Lord. But sin does not take away our eternal life in Christ. Our spirit is safe in Christ because we are in Him and it is His finished work that brings eternal salvation to us.

Make no mistake about it - the gospel of the grace of Christ is scandalous and it is offensive to the religious mindset.

Grace777x70 · May 31, 2017

Why does it matter? Why do we preach the gospel of the grace of God in Christ?

This matters a great deal because grace will not bear fruit in your life if you think it is merely a concept or a doctrine. As Judah Smith said recently:

We shudder at the term grace because it has been so maligned, so abused, so misrepresented. We see grace as the get out of jail free card. “Oh yeah, I love me some grace man. I get my jiggy on in the weekend then I come back on Sunday and get me my grace on.” No, that’s not grace. You’ve met a concept, not a Person.”

I regularly encounter people who don’t know what grace is so they misuse it or they attack it. People often say - too much preaching on grace leads to wrongdoing. That’s simply not possible when you have a proper understanding of grace.

Grace that is in the finished work of Christ alone no more leads to wrongdoing than love for your spouse will lead you to Ashley Madison.

Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

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