Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

[valiant]

Really? What type of partaking of the Holy Spirit do we have before salvation?!?

Many men 'go along with' the Holy Spirit for a time and then decide its not for them

The word "partaker" is used throughout Hebrews as of salvation, God's grace, & the Holy Spirit, not somebody that simply "feels conviction".

The word, which only occurs once outside Hebrews, has to be taken in context each time.

This is nothing but a evil trick to fool others & lead them away from the truth, which is what you often do.

To accuse a brother in this way is not acceptable.

Here's how the word is really used:
[TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]

◄ 1089. γεύομαι (geuomai) ►​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Englishman's Concordance
Strong's Greek: 1089. γεύομαι (geuomai) —


Matthew 27:34 V-APM-NMS
GRK: μεμιγμένον καὶ γευσάμενος οὐκ ἠθέλησεν
NAS: with gall; and after tasting [it], He was unwilling
KJV: and when he had tasted [thereof], he would
INT: mingled and having tasted not he would

In this example it clearly means 'sampled.' So your accusation is false.

Again, You're caught trying to deceive the people with two Greek words that are nothing alike.

Are you sure he was out to deliberately deceive people? Your language is atrocious.

Since all the previous context is talking about christians, so is the whole text.

That is questionable. The 'elementary teaching about the Messiah' is all Jewish doctrine, namely:

repentance from dead works, faith in GOD, instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of dead men, and eternal judgment.

He wanted to go on from this, but realised it was impossible for those that had rejected the Messiah,,

All you've done here is pure deception, twisting Greek words to make them say what you want.

EISEGESIS..... pure garbage.

such language to a brother in Christ is unforgiveable.

Which proves you did this on purpose, not accidentally.

It 'proves' nothing of the sort

The readers can check it out themselves & discover the fraud you are

That statement is despicable,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Now you went and caused me to think about what Jude wrote. Super severe stuff when we examine ourselves against the word of God.

Just another one of those times when I hope I'm way off the mark. I am not saying that any here have reached this level but it is a possible outcome if we give ourselves to fleshly passions and distain Godly discipline.

I must insert something positive so here is a verse to consider.

Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

It is a sad day when we think we have it all, or have made it,

At this point, God can no longer grow is, or use us, If we are his at all..

Paul was useful because he was humble, Never thought of himself more than anyone else. Always had the servant attitude,, If we can not see this, then we are in danger of hardening our hearts.

 

[kaylagrl]

[SUP]May the Spirit of God open your eyes to the below, so that if you are in error, you may repent and get onboard with the will of God and preach truth on this matter. Its not about pridefully defending your position. It's about the truth.

Colossians 1v21-23

21 [/SUP]And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled <become believers> [SUP]22 [/SUP]in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— [SUP]23 [/SUP]if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-These were believers above
-They were to be presented holy, blameless and above reproach (no scope for unrepentant sin in a believers life)
-this is possible (IF THEY CONTINUED IN THE FAITH) - grounded, steadfast, not moved.

Other evidences:

Luke 22 v31-32

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And the Lord said,[SUP][c][/SUP] “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. [SUP]32 [/SUP]But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”


Now what is plain to see is this:
-If it were not possible for faith to fail, as the strong delusionalists claim, then it would not be necessary for Jesus to have had to pray to the Father this prayer above.

1 Timothy 2 v18-20

[SUP]18 [/SUP]This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, [SUP]19 [/SUP]having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, [SUP]20 [/SUP]of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.


2 Timothy 2 v16-19
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, [SUP]18 [/SUP]who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ[SUP][c][/SUP] depart from iniquity.”

Now what is plain to see is this:
-its possible to stray concerning the truth
-its possible to once have known the truth but to have strayed therefrom
-faith can be overthrown.
-these people are no longer saved. Because you can only receive salvation through faith.
-sin is still a factor " Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity". Contrary to what the strong delusionalists say.

Jude
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-contending for the faith - its a prize. It is to be protected, defended, fought for.
-by not contending for this, it can be lost.

2 Timothy 4v7-8

[SUP]7 [/SUP]I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-Paul, writer of most of the New Testament, fought the good fight. Finished the course. And KEPT the faith.
-why would it be necessary for him to write about "kept the faith" if it wasn't possible to have lost faith.

1 John 5v4
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our[SUP][a][/SUP] faith.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-Our faith is what overcomes the world. We are supposed to OVERCOME THE WORLD.
-What is the world? (definition:1 John 2v16 [SUP]16 [/SUP]For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world).

Revelation 2v10b
10(b) Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-Faith is not a once off, momentary decision, applicable for all time.
-Faith, once received, once believed, is to be maintained.
-the corollary is this - if you are NOT faithful until death, or lose your faith, you shall not receive the crown of life.


The word is very clear - its to him who overcomes:
Revelation 2v7b To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life
Revelation 2v11b He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.
Revelation 2v17b To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat.
Revelation 2v26 [SUP]26 [/SUP]And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
Revelation 3v5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life
Revelation 3v12He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more.
Revelation 3v21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne


Now to those who lose the faith. Who once had the faith yet turned their backs on Christ, we have the subject matter of the 'other' thread. Which is clearly visible for all to see below:

Hebrews 6v4-6

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]if they fall away,[SUP][b][/SUP] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.


Now what is plain to see is this:
-Let there no no illusions that these were believers, and were once in the faith.
-once they "fall away" (and we can see that this is a very real risk warned about by the NT writers, as well as Jesus) to be renewed again unto repentance.

Ohhhh boy did you pick a bad subject!! Dont be discouraged if you're hit by fiery darts on this one!

 

[PeterJens]

Can something of value fall from your grasp? Yes, it happens all the time.
Does Jesus teach us to ask God to keep us? Yes, in the Lords prayer.

Would the enemy love to keep us in sin, in the belief we are safe and secure? All the time.

Read Jeremiah, Israel were continually lying to themselves that everything was ok and they
were not up to their necks in sin and rebellion. And they ignored the warnings. Not just
once but over decades. And what happened in the end? They died and were taken into
captivity.

Always walking in Gods ways is hard, brutally hard, but He will supply the means and support.

Stephen stood out to me. He abandoned Jesus when we was to die, and then a few months
later gave his life witnessing to the Lord and His victory. What a change, what the power of
God achieved in His life. This is what truth does to you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Can something of value get within your grasp and fall out?

Yes.

Does it mean you ever had it, or it was yours to begin with? No.

People can have the truth in their grasp. Taste it, Feel it, Yet never respond to it in a way they could have been saved, and fall away from it.

That is what the author of Hebrews is tryign to show us, Jews who had tasted the truth, Who had it within their grasp. but before it could take hold and actuall save them, they returned to what they truly had faith in, Religion. They fell away from truth, It does not mean the truth ever saved them, they only tasted it, They did not do as Jesus said in John 6, to gnawl, or chew completely.

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by Chris1975

[SUP] Colossians 1v21-23

21 [/SUP]And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled <become believers> [SUP]22 [/SUP]in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— [SUP]23 [/SUP]if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Those that have been reconciled are those who have not moved away from the hope of the Gospel. Why have they not done so? Because they are secure in Christ. Those who have moved away were never in Christ.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-These were believers above

Far from being plain to see, it is WRONG.

-They were to be presented holy, blameless and above reproach (no scope for unrepentant sin in a believers life)

Then God help us all, for all of us have unrepented sin in our lives, sins of which we are not yet aware,

-this is possible (IF THEY CONTINUED IN THE FAITH) - grounded, steadfast, not moved.

The 'if' is not doubtful and could be translated 'since'.

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by Chris1975

Other evidences:

Luke 22 v31-32

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And the Lord said,[SUP][c][/SUP] “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. [SUP]32 [/SUP]But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”


Now what is plain to see is this:
-If it were not possible for faith to fail, as the strong delusionalists claim, then it would not be necessary for Jesus to have had to pray to the Father this prayer above.

But it is precisely because we have Jesus as our intercessor with the Father that we KNOW our faith will not fail.So we are not deluded after all.

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by Chris1975

1 Timothy 2 v18-20

[SUP]18 [/SUP]This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, [SUP]19 [/SUP]having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, [SUP]20 [/SUP]of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.


2 Timothy 2 v16-19
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, [SUP]18 [/SUP]who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ[SUP][c][/SUP] depart from iniquity.”

Now what is plain to see is this:
-its possible to stray concerning the truth
-its possible to once have known the truth but to have strayed therefrom

And so they are 'delivered to Satan' that they may learn not to blaspheme. In other words they are temporarily excommunicated. Paul obviously believed they would eventually repent.

-faith can be overthrown.

Because their faith is outward not of the heart.

-these people are no longer saved. Because you can only receive salvation through faith.

Because their faith was nominal. They never were saved

-sin is still a factor " Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity". Contrary to what the strong delusionalists say.

There are no delusionists on this site then, for none disagree with this.

 

[Stephen63]

Many men 'go along with' the Holy Spirit for a time and then decide its not for them




The word, which only occurs once outside Hebrews, has to be taken in context each time.



To accuse a brother in this way is not acceptable.


In this example it clearly means 'sampled.' So your accusation is false.



Are you sure he was out to deliberately deceive people? Your language is atrocious.



That is questionable. The 'elementary teaching about the Messiah' is all Jewish doctrine, namely:

repentance from dead works, faith in GOD, instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of dead men, and eternal judgment.

He wanted to go on from this, but realised it was impossible for those that had rejected the Messiah,,



such language to a brother in Christ is unforgiveable.



It 'proves' nothing of the sort



That statement is despicable,

I'm gonna give you this one reply, then you're on ignore.

You're so full of crap, er, I mean yourself, that it's running outta yer eyes.

I feel better already, LOL!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Having the truth in you doesn't mean you're living it. Lots of sinners have the truth of the gospel in them. They can reject it & harden their hearts against it, but it's still there.

Father God chastens us Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

If we are not chastened by God, we are illegitimate (we think we're children but we're really not).


The Lord Jesus Christ seeks after those who are lost Luke 15:5 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

If the Lord Jesus Christ does not come after you if/when you stray, you never belonged to Him.


And what does the believer do when chastened by God? He/She is rewarded with the peaceable fruit of righteousness as he/she is exercised thereby.

And what does the believer do when the Lord Jesus Christ searches him/her out? He/she repents (Luke 15:7). And there is great joy in heaven over that one than over the 99 persons who need no repentance. And let me tell you something Stephen63, all are in need of repentance at some point in his/her walk (me and you included). And I know you know this.


Now, I am sure some of you will respond with "well, the one who does not respond to God's chastening, or the one who refuses to be laid upon the shoulders of the Shepherd" are lost, never reconciled, destined for hell.

1 Cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

There is loss suffered and the saving is by fire, but he/she shall be saved.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

When John is saying, you have come to Christ, stay in Christs teaching of love and His
commands or you can loose it all.

Are you still reading from 2 John? Where in 2 John does John say "you can loose it all"?

 

[valiant]

I'm gonna give you this one reply, then you're on ignore.

You're so full of crap, er, I mean yourself, that it's running outta yer eyes.

I feel better already, LOL!

Good............

 

[stonesoffire]

Heb 10:29　 How much more severe a punishment do you think that person deserves who tramples on God's Son, treats as common the blood of the covenant by which it was sanctified, and insults the Spirit of grace?
　
Heb 10:30　 For we know the one who said, "Vengeance belongs to me; I will pay them back," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."　

I don't know if this has been addressed this way, so if so...just pass me by. lol

This scripture is speaking about an attitude that one may develop. Many years ago in another forum, there was a poster that spoke about the priests while ministering in the temple, would trample the blood of the sacrifice which God sanctified as holy; wasn't treating the blood with the same respect as before.

Right before this verse...it says that those who are sanctified are perfected forever. Our sanctification is Holy Spirit. He has set us apart by the anointing of our spirit within...which "saves" our soul. The soul being our humanity.

It's similar to the 7 churches in Revelations that Jesus is warning to get their attitudes right. Repent of what is wrong in their life.

Then the enduring to the end? Isn't that keeping our love for Jesus hot? When we go through trials, tribulations...will our love endure?

Jesus doesn't throw people away. Not when He paid for us all with His own life. Only those who have rejected His offer until the end of their life on earth, will the wrath of God fall.

 

[PeterJens]

Can something of value get within your grasp and fall out?
Yes.
Does it mean you ever had it, or it was yours to begin with? No.
People can have the truth in their grasp. Taste it, Feel it, Yet never respond to it in a way they could have been saved, and fall away from it.
That is what the author of Hebrews is tryign to show us, Jews who had tasted the truth, Who had it within their grasp. but before it could take hold and actuall save them, they returned to what they truly had faith in, Religion. They fell away from truth, It does not mean the truth ever saved them, they only tasted it, They did not do as Jesus said in John 6, to gnawl, or chew completely.

Here is the double standard of faith.
1. Believe on Christ and you are saved, filled with the Holy Spirit and given a new heart
which can never die or leave you. It is now the real eternal you.
2. If you fall away, you tasted the Holy Spirit, and heavenly things, even the gifts but
were never born again, so when you fell away it was just a taster pack which got rejected.

Now if anyone cannot see the total double standards of belief here please put you your hand.
It is just self serving theology. Either is is a walk, and the walk reflects our maturity, or
it is a one off event which takes place and it is a done deal.

It cannot be both, just because it makes things awkward to reconcile scripture, real life and
ones theology. The thing that has to change is ones theology, because scripture does not
change or real life.

 

[PeterJens]

Jesus doesn't throw people away. Not when He paid for us all with His own life. Only those who have rejected His offer until the end of their life on earth, will the wrath of God fall.

stones - I do not believe Jesus throws people away. I think the walk with Jesus is long and often
difficult because it involves things we care about deeply.

If the Lord in His grace calls all even though He knows some will not make it, is this a wrong thing
to do, or evil to give people a chance at eternal life and fellowship with the King?

Jesus in the parables holds out a hand to all who will answer. But some do not come prepared.
5 foolish virgins, lamp oil, the talents, one ignores the talent, the sower and the seed, hard soil,
a rocky place, weeds smother, unforgiving servant, the wedding banquet not dressed properly.

So just listening to Jesus is enough to conclude he is open to all and awaits their response.
Some will fail to respond and fall away.

If this not what is the reality we also see in real life church experience?

 

[Muzungu256]

hahaaaaa again i agree with all posters on this topic.......

 

[stonesoffire]

stones - I do not believe Jesus throws people away. I think the walk with Jesus is long and often
difficult because it involves things we care about deeply.

That's why it's so important to let Holy Spirit fill us Peter, IMO. We need the joy of the Lord, plus all the other fruits. Makes life bearable when we are going through things. Thinking of Peter and Paul that sang in prison. Worshipped.

If the Lord in His grace calls all even though He knows some will not make it, is this a wrong thing
to do, or evil to give people a chance at eternal life and fellowship with the King?

Sounds like mercy to me.

Jesus in the parables holds out a hand to all who will answer. But some do not come prepared.
5 foolish virgins, lamp oil, the talents, one ignores the talent, the sower and the seed, hard soil,
a rocky place, weeds smother, unforgiving servant, the wedding banquet not dressed properly.

I don't see the scriptures as "do this or else".

~2Ti 3:16　 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,　
2Ti 3:17　 so that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good action.

We use His Word to examine ourselves to see if we are in faith.

The baptism of Holy Spirit, the gifts, the experiences in the Lord are exciting. And He is our help er. 　

So just

listening to Jesus is enough to conclude he is open to all and awaits their response.
Some will fail to respond and fall away.

Until the ground becomes good ground and the Word takes root. It all depends on what kind of ground the Word falls.

If this not what is the reality we also see in real life church experience?

May be in church life...but not in the body of Christ Peter.

 

[mailmandan]

Many men 'go along with' the Holy Spirit for a time and then decide its not for them

The word, which only occurs once outside Hebrews, has to be taken in context each time.

To accuse a brother in this way is not acceptable.

In this example it clearly means 'sampled.' So your accusation is false.

Are you sure he was out to deliberately deceive people? Your language is atrocious.

That is questionable. The 'elementary teaching about the Messiah' is all Jewish doctrine, namely:

repentance from dead works, faith in GOD, instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of dead men, and eternal judgment.

He wanted to go on from this, but realised it was impossible for those that had rejected the Messiah,,

such language to a brother in Christ is L

It 'proves' nothing of the sort

That statement is despicable,

Thank you brother! You hit the nail on the head! Excellent rebuttal!

 

[BillG]

Ohhhh boy did you pick a bad subject!! Dont be discouraged if you're hit by fiery darts on this one!

Yep he did, but alas not to discuss but to impose and go at people who dare disagree.

This was one quote made.

Luke 22 v31-32

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And the Lord said,[SUP][c][/SUP] “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. [SUP]32 [/SUP]But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”


Now what is plain to see is this:
-If it were not possible for faith to fail, as the strong delusionalists claim, then it would not be necessary for Jesus to have had to pray to the Father this prayer above.

Notice "As strong delusionalists claim" words spoken in love??

Now it seems to me that Peters faith did fail. Did he not deny Jesus, yes he did and how many times?

Its a good job Jesus didn't employ a three strikes and you are out policy, otherwise where would Peter be?

Notice the prayer Jesus prayed and part of this is "and when you have returned to me"

Seems to me Jesus knew Peter would fail in the strong profession he made of never leaving Jesus.

So to me true genuine faith will fail at time but true genuine faith will endure.

Not only did Jesus pray that prayer for Peter he is interceding for us with that same prayer.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yep he did, but alas not to discuss but to impose and go at people who dare disagree.

This was one quote made.



Notice "As strong delusionalists claim" words spoken in love??

Now it seems to me that Peters faith did fail. Did he not deny Jesus, yes he did and how many times?

Its a good job Jesus didn't employ a three strikes and you are out policy, otherwise where would Peter be?

Notice the prayer Jesus prayed and part of this is "and when you have returned to me"

Seems to me Jesus knew Peter would fail in the strong profession he made of never leaving Jesus.

So to me true genuine faith will fail at time but true genuine faith will endure.

Not only did Jesus pray that prayer for Peter he is interceding for us with that same prayer.

just goes to show God knows us better than ourselves. Amazing, Jesus knew Peter would return. He is not unknowing of future things concerning g individuals as some like to claim!