Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

[Chris1975]

I've never heard Grace777X70 say that "practicing" homosexuals will be granted access to eternal life. To practice this lifestyle equates to continuous action, no repentance, just bring it on, which is not descriptive of a genuine believer (Galatians 5:19-21; 1 John 3:9). Such people are described as the unrighteous (1 Corinthians 6:9).

Here it is. Grace777's response to that very question

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...whom-lord-jesus-will-judge-7.html#post3133283

Post Nr 128

So question to you mmd - will a practicing homosexual Christian be granted eternal life?

 

[Grace777x70]

Here it is. Grace777's response to that very question

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...whom-lord-jesus-will-judge-7.html#post3133283

Post Nr 128

So question to you mmd - will a practicing homosexual Christian be granted eternal life?

Question for you Chris1975:

What does Paul say about those in strife and divisions? These are in the exact same lists as the works of the flesh as immorailty. What makes the sin of being deceitful any better then any other work of the flesh?

I believe that the Holy Spirit knew what He was doing when He had Paul write 1 Corinthians.

Some of them were going to temple prostitutes for sex, they were taking each other to court, they were in divisions and strife, they were not treating the poor amongst them right...etc.

Paul was saying that those in Corinth were acting like mere men and men of flesh - in other words not being spiritually minded.

1 Corinthians 3:1-4 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.

[SUP]2 [/SUP] I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,

[SUP]3 [/SUP] for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos,"are you not mere men?


I noticed that in verse 1 Paul says that they are "babes in Christ".

- not that the Corinthians are going to hell because you are sinning. Or that because they were sinning - that they are not born of God.

Some people's religion has our loving Father sending "babes in Christ " to hell because they are "fleshly" ( verse 3 above ). What a horrid false doctrine from the very pit of hell.

 

[Grace777x70]

Here it is. Grace777's response to that very question

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...whom-lord-jesus-will-judge-7.html#post3133283

Post Nr 128

So question to you mmd - will a practicing homosexual Christian be granted eternal life?

We have to keep 2 aspects in mind when interpreting scriptures on salvation.

Works-based believers see the warning scriptures and "interpret" those to mean that one loses salvation as in going to be with the Lord for eternity. They say that our loving Father who loves His children dearly will send them to hell because the are a baby Christian.

We should be admonished to listen to these warning scriptures but let's get the proper foundation in the Lord down first so that these warning scriptures will be put in their proper place.

This type of mindset does not know the love and grace of God for people and thus they develop a fear based religion of works "to keep one saved".

1 John 4:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.

Salvation manifests itself here in this earth and also for going to be with the Lord because we are in Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believed as Paul said in Eph. 1:13 ; 4:30.

Start shooting heroin in your arms today and you will NOT experience salvation - that is life and wholeness on this earth for very long.

Confuse the 2 and we will come up with all kinds of works-based salvationists views - like we lose our righteousness. We don't have our "own" righteousness. Christ Himself is our righteousness.

I believe we have to differentiate between "going to heaven to be with the Lord " salvation and - "being saved from the things that can destroy us here while being on this earth."

There are different manifestations of salvation in Christ - one is going to be with the Lord because we are joined as one spirit with the Lord forever in the new creation - the other is concerning the things of this life on earth.

The promised land is a type of being in Christ now - it is not a type of heaven as there will be no giants to fight in heaven.

Moses did not get to rest in what God had already provided for the Israelites - but yet Moses is with God now.

The promised land is a type of living here on this earth by believing in the promises of God. Only Caleb and Joshua were the ones that got to experience the promises of God in the promised land because they believed in what God had said.

We can inherit now in this life some things that are of the kingdom of Godbecause the kingdom of God is within us...however if we don't have our minds renewed to the truth in Christ ( which includes living by the Spirit within us ) - we can not experience the things of the kingdom that are available to us believers.

Scripture uses the same Greek word - " salvation, saved " = wholeness, preservation, keep safe, deliverance, make well - for bothbeing saved from things in this life and for going to be with the Lord for eternity.

If we don't understand this difference we will continually be mis-applying scriptures that talk about "being saved here in this life from things" and "going to be with the Lord when we leave this earth because we are joined as one spirit with Him".

There is eternal salvation and there is a manifestation of salvation from temporal things while on this earth. Confuse the two and we end up with a mixed up message of self-effort for going to heaven and only the blood of Jesus does that.

Jesus is either our Savior for going to be in heaven with Him or we are our own savior by helping Him. One is by grace through faith-righteousness - the other is works-righteousness.

Let's just rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the things of Christ to us.

We are safe in the Lord Jesus Christ and we can trust Him to do what He has He will do and has already done for us.

We have a great salvation in Him! We can trust the Lord when He said "I will never leave you nor forsake you!" Jesus said that the Holy Spirit ewill be in us forever. John 14:16

The proper teaching of the gospel of Christ and what He has already done for us will provide the "nutrients" for the new creation in Christ which has been created in righteousness and holiness to manifest His life in and through us - and yes this also shows in our behavior.

As we have received Christ our Lord - so we walk in Him - and it is all by grace through faith. Col. 2:6

His love which is in us will come forth and bear much fruit. The behavior is a "fruit of salvation" - it does not produce salvation. Only Christ Himself is our true salvation - it is "in Him".

The Lord will always discipline ( which means to child-train in the Greek - not send to hell ) His beloved children.

 

[Jimbone]

So Grace are you suggesting the He who starts a good work in someone is not powerful enough to finish it? Are you suggesting His Spirit can dwell forever in someone that continuously rejects them? What you are teaching here is so very dangerous and can mislead people man. It was this kind of "do what you want God loves you for you no matter what, and we will always sin" crap that made me think I was a Christian when I was very far from Him. I think you are stretching these verses beyond the breaking point. You seem to think God saves us for us. I'm sorry but it is ALL for His glory, not us. You have a man centered God as were I know it is ALL and ONLY about Him. I do agree with you in some ways, but you seem to think God has to conform to your ideas of niceness and love and always seem to shy away from His justice. A very dangerous and misleading "gospel" if it can even be called that.

 

[Jimbone]

So Grace are you suggesting the He who starts a good work in someone is not powerful enough to finish it? Are you suggesting His Spirit can dwell forever in someone that continuously rejects them? What you are teaching here is so very dangerous and can mislead people man. It was this kind of "do what you want God loves you for you no matter what, and we will always sin" crap that made me think I was a Christian when I was very far from Him. I think you are stretching these verses beyond the breaking point. You seem to think God saves us for us. I'm sorry but it is ALL for His glory, not us. You have a man centered God as were I know it is ALL and ONLY about Him. I do agree with you in some ways, but you seem to think God has to conform to your ideas of niceness and love and always seem to shy away from His justice. A very dangerous and misleading "gospel" if it can even be called that.

You also seemed to have left out the part were Paul says "such WERE some of you", past tense, as in they CHANGED. Imagine that, God is powerful enough to change us.

 

[Grace777x70]

So Grace are you suggesting the He who starts a good work in someone is not powerful enough to finish it? Are you suggesting His Spirit can dwell forever in someone that continuously rejects them? What you are teaching here is so very dangerous and can mislead people man. It was this kind of "do what you want God loves you for you no matter what, and we will always sin" crap that made me think I was a Christian when I was very far from Him. I think you are stretching these verses bneyond the brea

I am saying the complete opposite. I am saying the proper preaching of the gospel has the power to effect an exchanged life in us believers - no matter what work of the flesh may have us in it's grip until we learn the truth.

The natural mind of man thinks that the preaching of the true gospel will make people think they will sin all they want. We don't water down the gospel because of this.

If no one says "What?..are you saying people can just go and sin all we want now because of grace?" ..if no one says that - then you are not preaching the gospel of the grace of Christ.

No one is saying to go out and sin all you want now because of grace but people should be accusing you of saying that if you are really preaching the same gospel that Paul preached. He was continuously slandered with this same accusation. In 4x times alone in Romans Paul had to come against those that were accusing Paul of being antinomian.

The grace of God teaches us how to live godly in this present world as Titus 2:11-12.

Sin is stupid and against our new nature in Christ which is created in righteousness and holiness. Sin is deceitful and will destroy us on this earth as well as those we love and ruins our witness for the Lord.

But sin does not take away our eternal life in Christ. Our spirit is safe in Christ because we are in Him and it is His finished work that brings eternal salvation to us.

Make no mistake about it..the gospel of the grace of Christ is scandalous and we don't water the gospel down because some might distort what is being said or don't understand it.

 

[Grace777x70]

You also seemed to have left out the part were Paul says "such WERE some of you", past tense, as in they CHANGED. Imagine that, God is powerful enough to change us.

Yes Jim - these are "identities". One is the unrighteous - the other are the righteous because they are in Christ.

I have written many times about 1 Cor. 6:11 - it a great verse that shows we are complete and whole in Christ - justified - which means declared righteous, sanctified which means set apart. There are in the Aorist Indicative tense and in the passive.

It is a one time even that is still true from an event in the past and that will always remain true in the present and it was something done to you. We don't do it to ourselves.

I have always said this too.

Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

PS.. I actually do believe that God saves us through the work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross and resurrection. We don't save ourselves. That is a works-based-false doctrine .

I have also written many times how that the Lord disciplines His children so your accusations are false and misrepresenting what I am really saying.

 

[Grace777x70]

I think that the gospel of the grace of Christ has been so watered down with law and condemnation that the "message" given out "as the gospel" does not have the power in it for real change. We can get born-again from it however which is wonderful and the most important aspect of it because it is our entrance into this grace in which we stand..

The gospel is about an exchanged life not merely a behavior modification program for the flesh to pretty it up. If we preached the real gospel then in "it" people will find real salvation for all areas of their lives while living on this earth.

A lot of the exhortations by Paul to live right were always based on him first telling them what the real gospel is.

These exhortations are descriptive of the fruit of an exchanged life and what the true Christian life looks like when we are walking by the Spirit and not according to the flesh.

Works-based salvationists make these exhortations a requirement in order to be saved which is the complete opposite of the gospel message in Christ.

Acceptance grace in that we are completely forgiven, deeply loved as a child of God and forever sealed in Him - knowing this will release the 2nd aspect of grace - empowering grace to go and sin no more. It's a by-product of our new life in Christ.

We really need to be cemented in the 1st aspect of acceptance grace - then empowering grace will be manifested as a fruit of His life being lived in and through us.

 

[mailmandan]

Here it is. Grace777's response to that very question

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...whom-lord-jesus-will-judge-7.html#post3133283

Post Nr 128

So question to you mmd - will a practicing homosexual Christian be granted eternal life?

A "practicing" homosexual is one who is without repentance and is referred to as "unrighteous" which means they are an unbeliever (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; 1 John 3:7-10). I'm not reading where Grace777x7 said that the unrighteous will be saved anyway.

 

[Chris1975]

A "practicing" homosexual is one who is without repentance and is referred to as "unrighteous" which means they are an unbeliever (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; 1 John 3:7-10). I'm not reading where Grace777x7 said that the unrighteous will be saved anyway.

You really don't understand the G777 gospel Mailmandan, with all due respect.

 

[mailmandan]

You really don't understand the G777 gospel Mailmandan, with all due respect.

Did G777 say "practice sin all you want/live like the devil" (no biggie, doesn't matter) and you will still be saved anyway? I'm not hearing that.

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). CAUSE of salvation.

Now in regards to children of God, we see the EFFECT and we also see a distinction between children of the devil and children of God below:

1 John 3:7 - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

 

[Chris1975]

You really don't understand the G777 gospel Mailmandan, with all due respect.

The primary differences between mailmandan and g777 gospels are this, from what I can tell:

G777 - you cannot ever lose your salvation once you confess Christ. Even if you subsequently live like a total heathen, the worst that can come your way is just a tougher life here on earth. You will be saved anyway. You can never fall from faith.

MMD - you cannot ever lose your salvation once you have faith in Jesus. However one who has faith in Jesus will produce fruit accordingly (good fruit) and cannot bear bad fruit. You can never fall from faith. However repentance is included in MMD gospel (excellent), but if someone is living in willful sin it means that they were never in the faith to begin with.

Of the two gospels MMD has it FAR MORE ACCURATE than G777's. G777's is just appalling. However MMD has it wrong in that he misses all of the falling away warnings which are very clear in scripture. And whilst it seems noble, it in fact is still laced with a poison that can destroy the believer as the scope for complacency exists. If someone following the MMD gospel believes he/she has had faith at any point, then they are guaranteed salvation. The risks exist that they will then overlook the very sins they should be crucifying. Herein lies the problem. Secondly, the MMD version is confusing. If they were ever in the faith and can never lose faith then no sin can send them to hell (even willful). Yet the bible is clear on the topic of willful sin. Those who choose this way will not receive mercy.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You are not answering the question, Chris1975. You are glossing over what you do not want to acknowledge.

In Rom 11:19, was it the remnant that was broken off? Or was it those who did not believe?

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off ...
Is this speaking of the remnant? (no)
or those who did not believe? (yes)

Your answer is in verse 25:

Romans 11
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

You want to use Rom 11:25? Fine. We'll use Rom 11:25.

Romans 11:25 ... that blindness in part is happened to Israel ...

Is it the remnant who are blinded?
or is it those who did not believe who are blinded?

So you see - the bible is consistent. The above passages mean that the Gentiles, who are standing in the faith (verse 20), should fear (verse 21), for if God did not spare the natural branches (Israel) because of unbelief (verse 21 and verse 22), then the possibility of those in the Gentile church also being cut off is a risk (verse 22). They were set for us as an example.

"God did not spare the natural branches (Israel) because of unbelief".

Those are your words, Chris1975. And that is a correct statement.

And there are some sitting in our churches who are sitting there in "unbelief". They are going through the motions and they believe they are saved. But they are not saved because they have not confessed (agreed) that Jesus Christ is Lord and that God has raised Jesus Christ from the dead.

The warnings in Romans 11 are written to those who are still in unbelief. They go to church, they keep (to the best of their ability) the commandments of God. And that is not enough (and if by grace, then it is no more of works - Rom 11:6).

Romans 11 also speaks of the remnant (or those you refer to as "standing in the faith"). Those are true believers.

 

[mailmandan]

However MMD has it wrong in that he misses all of the falling away warnings which are very clear in scripture.

I have not missed all the falling away warnings in scripture. I just don't see where these warnings are absolutely clear that those who fell away were truly saved. I'm still looking for the words "lost salvation." You make it sound like continuing in the faith, enduring to the end etc.. is an extremely difficult burden that most believers will surely fail to do and the Lord will so easily allow them to slip through His hands, as if it's all about us pulling ourselves up by our own bootstraps and keeping ourselves saved, while the Lord remains in the background as a disengaged referee. Those who permanently fall away demonstrate that their faith was not firmly rooted and established from the start.

And whilst it seems noble, it in fact is still laced with a poison that can destroy the believer as the scope for complacency exists. If someone following the MMD gospel believes he/she has had faith at any point, then they are guaranteed salvation. The risks exist that they will then overlook the very sins they should be crucifying. Herein lies the problem.

Believers are children of God and like a good Father, the Lord disciplines those who are His and He is not merely a disengaged referee. Your gospel runs the risk of leaving people believing they must maintain their salvation based on the merits of their performance, which is type 2 works salvation.

Secondly, the MMD version is confusing. If they were ever in the faith and can never lose faith then no sin can send them to hell (even willful). Yet the bible is clear on the topic of willful sin. Those who choose this way will not receive mercy.

Those who are described as "sinning willfully" are not genuine believers. To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and accidently fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

 

[reneweddaybyday]

If you reject Repentance, which your doctrine teaches, you are not a son but illegitimate.

Scripture, please, for this statement.

 

[Desertsrose]

The primary differences between mailmandan and g777 gospels are this, from what I can tell:G777 - you cannot ever lose your salvation once you confess Christ. Even if you subsequently live like a total heathen, the worst that can come your way is just a tougher life here on earth. You will be saved anyway. You can never fall from faith.MMD - you cannot ever lose your salvation once you have faith in Jesus. However one who has faith in Jesus will produce fruit accordingly (good fruit) and cannot bear bad fruit. You can never fall from faith. However repentance is included in MMD gospel (excellent), but if someone is living in willful sin it means that they were never in the faith to begin with.Of the two gospels MMD has it FAR MORE ACCURATE than G777's. G777's is just appalling. However MMD has it wrong in that he misses all of the falling away warnings which are very clear in scripture. And whilst it seems noble, it in fact is still laced with a poison that can destroy the believer as the scope for complacency exists. If someone following the MMD gospel believes he/she has had faith at any point, then they are guaranteed salvation. The risks exist that they will then overlook the very sins they should be crucifying. Herein lies the problem. Secondly, the MMD version is confusing. If they were ever in the faith and can never lose faith then no sin can send them to hell (even willful). Yet the bible is clear on the topic of willful sin. Those who choose this way will not receive mercy.

Hi Chris,


I also think Dan is far more accurate. Well I think he's totally accurate with what he's saying to you.


I use to get tripped up with all the warnings and realized that the warnings are for those who are the three soils, not the good soil.


The first soil falls away immediately, but the other two linger on in being a fruitful seed until that time when persecution comes, troubles, worries whatever.


These are those who are warned that if they don't continue on in the faith they will lose something very dear.


It’s something they thought they had, but because they don't continue in it, it slips through their fingers and they return to a life of sinful behavior. And you are correct that the person who continues on in willful continuous sin is going to be one of the bad soils in Matthew.

 

[Chris1975]

I have not missed all the falling away warnings in scripture. I just don't see where these warnings are absolutely clear that those who fell away were truly saved. I'm still looking for the words "lost salvation." <salvation is only granted on the Day of Judgement. Yes if you die in the faith now you should not have a concern about salvation on the day of judgement. The problem comes where you make a pronouncement of saved when it is only to those who overcome in the faith. You mix up justification (peace with God right now) with Salvation (which happens as a gift on the Day of the Lord). And when you mix that up then the waters get murky. Those who live by FAITH are JUSTIFIED and have PEACE with the Lord. Those who REMAIN in FAITH will receive the gift of SALVATION on the Day of the Lord>

You make it sound like continuing in the faith, enduring to the end etc.. is an extremely difficult burden that most believers will surely fail to do and the Lord will so easily allow them to slip through His hands <I have never said this. In fact the Lord makes a way for us to escape temptation. His burdens are light. Yet if what I have just said in these last two sentences are true, and you know they are, then why is it so difficult to turn from sin? Because you haven't come to the conclusion that we have victory over sin in Christ Jesus and that its no longer our Master. If you are willing to by faith accept that, then sin has lost its power.>, as if it's all about us pulling ourselves up by our own bootstraps and keeping ourselves saved, while the Lord remains in the background as a disengaged referee <once again I have never said that. You have implied that>. Those who permanently fall away demonstrate that their faith was not firmly rooted and established from the start. <The scriptures I quote show that they fell away from the faith. They do not show the degree of faith, with the exception of Hebrews 6v4-6 which shows pretty strong faith. Yet we know the Lord gifts each person a measure of faith, and we are to exercise this faith. So if the Lord says we can fall away from the faith, I accept that as a distinct possibility. Therefore my exhortations to the body are to AVOID this from happening. Because there are enough voices here saying that it ISNT POSSIBLE. And this is scripturally incorrect>

Believers are children of God and like a good Father, the Lord disciplines those who are His and He is not merely a disengaged referee.<we agree> Your gospel runs the risk of leaving people believing they must maintain their salvation based on the merits of their performance, which is type 2 works salvation.<you misinterpret my message. Obedience is as a result of living in faith. Disobedience is as a result of unbelief. Any disobedience is a sign that something is not right with your faith, and we are to catch the little foxes. For sin is a snare. Its called the deceitfulness of sin. And it leads a person astray from the faith. I am exhorting the brethren to deal with this appropriately>

Those who are described as "sinning willfully" are not genuine believers. <I agree that they are not living in faith. Hence the exhortation to repent> To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately <to reject Christ is also to reject His words>. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and accidently fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION <agreed>. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

In red above...

 

[Chris1975]

Scripture, please, for this statement.

Hebrews 12
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”[SUP][a][/SUP]


[SUP]7 [/SUP]If[SUP][b][/SUP] you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? [SUP]8 [/SUP]But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? [SUP]10 [/SUP]For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

 

[Chris1975]

Hi Chris,


I also think Dan is far more accurate. Well I think he's totally accurate with what he's saying to you.


I use to get tripped up with all the warnings and realized that the warnings are for those who are the three soils, not the good soil.


The first soil falls away immediately, but the other two linger on in being a fruitful seed until that time when persecution comes, troubles, worries whatever.


These are those who are warned that if they don't continue on in the faith they will lose something very dear.


It’s something they thought they had, but because they don't continue in it, it slips through their fingers and they return to a life of sinful behavior. And you are correct that the person who continues on in willful continuous sin is going to be one of the bad soils in Matthew.

Yup, I agree with what you are saying above. They still had faith (but they never exercised it). Therefore they never brought forth fruit in line with the gospel delivered to them.

 

[mailmandan]

Yup, I agree with what you are saying above. They still had faith (but they never exercised it). Therefore they never brought forth fruit in line with the gospel delivered to them.

Shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away, does not qualify as genuine faith.