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YEP....and I have many things to say and you are not ready to hear them......The N.T. was written after Christ ascended and by MATTHEW, MARK, LUKE, Paul's hand, Peter's hand and John's hand we have been told there are things that must come to pass FIRST......JESUS will not COME until these things COME TO PASS.......end of story
I think we are already agreed that those events (the apostasy (2 Thes. 2:3), the revealing of the man of lawlessness (vv. 3-4, 8), and the removal of restraint against lawlessness) must first take place before the Day of the Lord. But I was referring to the imminence of the rapture and the admonishments to watch.
"By this the Holy Spirit was signifying that the way into the holy places has not yet been made manifest, the first tabernacle still having a standing [*G4714 - stasin/stasis (from the base of "histemi [G2476]") - "an insurrection, dissension; originally: standing, position, place"], which is a symbol [parable/illustration/figure/similitude] for the present time..."
--Hebrews 9:8-9a
*"G4714 - insurrection, uproar.
"[G4714] From the base of histemi [G2476]; a standing (properly, the act), i.e. (by analogy) position (existence); by implication, a popular uprising; figuratively, controversy -- dissension, insurrection, X standing, uproar."
[see also 2Cor5:1-4--a RAPTURE passage (see "our earthly house of tabernacle" vv.1,4)]
In 2Th2:3, G646 - apostasia - "646 [noun] apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart [note: these are 'verbs']," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing." [source definition: Bible Hub]
[--or, "[NOUN] a standing away from [a previous standing]" rather than "leave, depart" which are instead "verbs"--2Th2:3's G646 is a NOUN (not a verb), just to be clear]
The surrounding words and context (where this word is found) help tell "WHAT KIND" of "departure [noun]" is meant. In Acts 21:21, it is a "a departure FROM MOSES" that was meant (due to the accompanying words telling "WHAT KIND" of departure is meant in that context; and in that same era, "the departing of a fever," and "the departure of a boat from a dock" used this word [i.e. geographical/spatial departure]).
"Departure" is the basic meaning of the word "G646 - apo stasia". And in 2Th2:3 it is "THE Departure" (the one Paul had already taught the Thessalonians about, and the reasoning "WHY" he is saying the DOTL [the unfolding JUDGMENTS] is NOT present as they were being [wrongly] led to believe was the case [v2, v15], but which was EASY/REASONABLE for them to be CONVINCED was true, due to their PRESENT and ONGOING, NEGATIVE and VERY DIFFICULT circumstances they were ongoingly ENDURING, 2Th1:4).
Paul is here telling them how our Rapture/Departure "fits" [time-wise] IN RELATION TO the DOTL's TIME PERIOD of "unfolding judgments" etc: "the DOTL [earthly time period of unfolding judgments] will not be present if not shall have come The Departure [our Rapture noun-event] *FIRST*, and the man of sin be revealed" [when he "comes" (which 'is after/in accordance with the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders') the DOTL WILL indeed THEN be present to unfold upon the earth ("unfolding judgments" and very negative things [SEALS (man of sin=SEAL #1), TRUMPETS, VIALS, etc])].
"... blindness [/'dulling of the faculty of perception'] in part is happened to Israel UNTIL the FULNESS of the Gentiles BE COME IN [G1525 - eiselthē/eiserchomai - 'arise, come into, enter into, go through']" (SEE the verb used [regarding US] in 1Cor6:14[3] and how it is used in only ONE other place, and COMPARE these "PURPOSES"! [then read Rom11:25-29(15) again, as well as the Heb9:8-9a passage, at top])
--Hebrews 9:8-9a
*"G4714 - insurrection, uproar.
"[G4714] From the base of histemi [G2476]; a standing (properly, the act), i.e. (by analogy) position (existence); by implication, a popular uprising; figuratively, controversy -- dissension, insurrection, X standing, uproar."
[see also 2Cor5:1-4--a RAPTURE passage (see "our earthly house of tabernacle" vv.1,4)]
In 2Th2:3, G646 - apostasia - "646 [noun] apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart [note: these are 'verbs']," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing." [source definition: Bible Hub]
[--or, "[NOUN] a standing away from [a previous standing]" rather than "leave, depart" which are instead "verbs"--2Th2:3's G646 is a NOUN (not a verb), just to be clear]
The surrounding words and context (where this word is found) help tell "WHAT KIND" of "departure [noun]" is meant. In Acts 21:21, it is a "a departure FROM MOSES" that was meant (due to the accompanying words telling "WHAT KIND" of departure is meant in that context; and in that same era, "the departing of a fever," and "the departure of a boat from a dock" used this word [i.e. geographical/spatial departure]).
"Departure" is the basic meaning of the word "G646 - apo stasia". And in 2Th2:3 it is "THE Departure" (the one Paul had already taught the Thessalonians about, and the reasoning "WHY" he is saying the DOTL [the unfolding JUDGMENTS] is NOT present as they were being [wrongly] led to believe was the case [v2, v15], but which was EASY/REASONABLE for them to be CONVINCED was true, due to their PRESENT and ONGOING, NEGATIVE and VERY DIFFICULT circumstances they were ongoingly ENDURING, 2Th1:4).
Paul is here telling them how our Rapture/Departure "fits" [time-wise] IN RELATION TO the DOTL's TIME PERIOD of "unfolding judgments" etc: "the DOTL [earthly time period of unfolding judgments] will not be present if not shall have come The Departure [our Rapture noun-event] *FIRST*, and the man of sin be revealed" [when he "comes" (which 'is after/in accordance with the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders') the DOTL WILL indeed THEN be present to unfold upon the earth ("unfolding judgments" and very negative things [SEALS (man of sin=SEAL #1), TRUMPETS, VIALS, etc])].
"... blindness [/'dulling of the faculty of perception'] in part is happened to Israel UNTIL the FULNESS of the Gentiles BE COME IN [G1525 - eiselthē/eiserchomai - 'arise, come into, enter into, go through']" (SEE the verb used [regarding US] in 1Cor6:14[3] and how it is used in only ONE other place, and COMPARE these "PURPOSES"! [then read Rom11:25-29(15) again, as well as the Heb9:8-9a passage, at top])
The day of the LORD IS the Parousia and OUR GATHERING (rapture)....as a matter of fact.....The DAY of the LORD, DAY of CHRIST and DAY of GOD are ONE DAY <---SO.......
if the BOLDED in your quote MUST takes PLACE how can the RAPTURE be IMMINENT......??
JESUS said in Matthew, Mark, LUKE......BEFORE the angels gather the ELECT from the ONE end of heaven to the other, the uttermost part of the earth that the SUN must go dark, the MOON must not give it's light and the stars fall from heaven <----They are all still shining and hanging in the sky......
NO.....the rapture is NOT imminent......WHEN these things happen...THEN look up for our redemption draws NIGH.....then and ONLY then can we say.....it is IMMINENT
Why is this so hard to grasp?
I still say that many fail to view time from the same perspective that GOD views time....in his eyes it is IMMINENT because it has already happened....I.E......
1000 years is...
as a day
as a watch in the night
as but yesterday
The last 2000 years has been no more that 2 days, 6 to 8 hours or already DONE in God's eyes......
if the BOLDED in your quote MUST takes PLACE how can the RAPTURE be IMMINENT......??
JESUS said in Matthew, Mark, LUKE......BEFORE the angels gather the ELECT from the ONE end of heaven to the other, the uttermost part of the earth that the SUN must go dark, the MOON must not give it's light and the stars fall from heaven <----They are all still shining and hanging in the sky......
NO.....the rapture is NOT imminent......WHEN these things happen...THEN look up for our redemption draws NIGH.....then and ONLY then can we say.....it is IMMINENT
Why is this so hard to grasp?
I still say that many fail to view time from the same perspective that GOD views time....in his eyes it is IMMINENT because it has already happened....I.E......
1000 years is...
as a day
as a watch in the night
as but yesterday
The last 2000 years has been no more that 2 days, 6 to 8 hours or already DONE in God's eyes......
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Thanks bro.......there were numerous verses that did not make sense when viewed through the lens of the modern version that is peddled in many churches I.E>the IMMINENT return........POST GREAT TRIB PRE WRATH and they ALL fall into place........It blows my mind that we know more about the 1st coming as compared to the 2nd when the verse ratio is 1 to 8 concerning the 2nd coming......
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I have read it.
And I've mentioned in past posts that both "parousia" and "erchomai" are used of BOTH [the time of] our Rapture [IN THE AIR] AND of His Second Coming to the earth.
[the CONTEXT determines whether that (either of these two words) is "IN THE AIR" (in the "presence" of "the Church which is His body" SOLELY) or is on the earth upon His "RETURN" there (when "every eye shall see Him")]
You really believe there will be "no rapture"??
And I've mentioned in past posts that both "parousia" and "erchomai" are used of BOTH [the time of] our Rapture [IN THE AIR] AND of His Second Coming to the earth.
[the CONTEXT determines whether that (either of these two words) is "IN THE AIR" (in the "presence" of "the Church which is His body" SOLELY) or is on the earth upon His "RETURN" there (when "every eye shall see Him")]
You really believe there will be "no rapture"??
I disagree with your definition of "the Day of the Lord" and believe it instead ARRIVES [to unfold upon the earth] at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" with many MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL; Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11]" that will be following on from that INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"...
it is not "ONE and DONE" (anyone here experience birth PANGS and can testify??)
it is not "ONE and DONE" (anyone here experience birth PANGS and can testify??)
I did a search on the exact phrase 'the Day of the Lord' and it speaks only of God's wrath...no parousia!
Isaiah 13:6 (NASB) Wail, for the day of the LORD is near! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
Isaiah 13:9 (NASB) Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, To make the land a desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it.
Isaiah 58:13 (NASB) "If because of the sabbath, you turn your foot From doing your own pleasure on My holy day, And call the sabbath a delight, the holy day of the LORD honorable, And honor it, desisting from your own ways, From seeking your own pleasure And speaking your own word,
Lamentations 2:22 (NASB) You called as in the day of an appointed feast My terrors on every side; And there was no one who escaped or survived In the day of the LORD'S anger. Those whom I bore and reared, My enemy annihilated them.
Ezekiel 13:5 (NASB) "You have not gone up into the breaches, nor did you build the wall around the house of Israel to stand in the battle on the day of the LORD.
Ezekiel 30:3 (NASB) "For the day is near, Even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, A time of doom for the nations.
Joel 1:15 (NASB) Alas for the day! For the day of the LORD is near, And it will come as destruction from the Almighty.
Joel 2:1 (NASB) Blow a trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm on My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, For the day of the LORD is coming; Surely it is near,
Joel 2:11 (NASB) The LORD utters His voice before His army; Surely His camp is very great, For strong is he who carries out His word. The day of the LORD is indeed great and very awesome, And who can endure it?
Joel 2:31 (NASB) "The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.
Joel 3:14 (NASB) Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Amos 5:18 (NASB) Alas, you who are longing for the day of the LORD, For what purpose will the day of the LORD be to you? It will be darkness and not light;
Amos 5:20 (NASB) Will not the day of the LORD be darkness instead of light, Even gloom with no brightness in it?
Obadiah 15 (NASB) "For the day of the LORD draws near on all the nations. As you have done, it will be done to you. Your dealings will return on your own head.
Zephaniah 1:7 (NASB) Be silent before the Lord GOD! For the day of the LORD is near, For the LORD has prepared a sacrifice, He has consecrated His guests.
Zephaniah 1:8 (NASB) "Then it will come about on the day of the LORD'S sacrifice That I will punish the princes, the king's sons And all who clothe themselves with foreign garments.
Zephaniah 1:14 (NASB) Near is the great day of the LORD, Near and coming very quickly; Listen, the day of the LORD! In it the warrior cries out bitterly.
Zephaniah 1:18 (NASB) Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.
Zephaniah 2:2 (NASB) Before the decree takes effect-- The day passes like the chaff-- Before the burning anger of the LORD comes upon you, Before the day of the LORD'S anger comes upon you.
Zephaniah 2:3 (NASB) Seek the LORD, All you humble of the earth Who have carried out His ordinances; Seek righteousness, seek humility. Perhaps you will be hidden In the day of the LORD'S anger.
Malachi 4:5 (NASB) "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.
Acts 2:20 (NASB) 'THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME.
1 Corinthians 5:5 (NASB) I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 (NASB) For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
2 Thessalonians 2:2 (NASB) that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2 Peter 3:10 (NASB) But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
That isn't speaking of the Church or rapture, that is when God gathers those Jews who were scattered throughout the world back into the Land of Israel...
Jeremiah 23:3 (KJV) And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
Micah 2:12 (KJV) I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men.
That passage says 'is as' not 'is'. It is a simile and cannot be used as an equation.
Isaiah 13:6 (NASB) Wail, for the day of the LORD is near! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
Isaiah 13:9 (NASB) Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, To make the land a desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it.
Isaiah 58:13 (NASB) "If because of the sabbath, you turn your foot From doing your own pleasure on My holy day, And call the sabbath a delight, the holy day of the LORD honorable, And honor it, desisting from your own ways, From seeking your own pleasure And speaking your own word,
Lamentations 2:22 (NASB) You called as in the day of an appointed feast My terrors on every side; And there was no one who escaped or survived In the day of the LORD'S anger. Those whom I bore and reared, My enemy annihilated them.
Ezekiel 13:5 (NASB) "You have not gone up into the breaches, nor did you build the wall around the house of Israel to stand in the battle on the day of the LORD.
Ezekiel 30:3 (NASB) "For the day is near, Even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, A time of doom for the nations.
Joel 1:15 (NASB) Alas for the day! For the day of the LORD is near, And it will come as destruction from the Almighty.
Joel 2:1 (NASB) Blow a trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm on My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, For the day of the LORD is coming; Surely it is near,
Joel 2:11 (NASB) The LORD utters His voice before His army; Surely His camp is very great, For strong is he who carries out His word. The day of the LORD is indeed great and very awesome, And who can endure it?
Joel 2:31 (NASB) "The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.
Joel 3:14 (NASB) Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Amos 5:18 (NASB) Alas, you who are longing for the day of the LORD, For what purpose will the day of the LORD be to you? It will be darkness and not light;
Amos 5:20 (NASB) Will not the day of the LORD be darkness instead of light, Even gloom with no brightness in it?
Obadiah 15 (NASB) "For the day of the LORD draws near on all the nations. As you have done, it will be done to you. Your dealings will return on your own head.
Zephaniah 1:7 (NASB) Be silent before the Lord GOD! For the day of the LORD is near, For the LORD has prepared a sacrifice, He has consecrated His guests.
Zephaniah 1:8 (NASB) "Then it will come about on the day of the LORD'S sacrifice That I will punish the princes, the king's sons And all who clothe themselves with foreign garments.
Zephaniah 1:14 (NASB) Near is the great day of the LORD, Near and coming very quickly; Listen, the day of the LORD! In it the warrior cries out bitterly.
Zephaniah 1:18 (NASB) Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.
Zephaniah 2:2 (NASB) Before the decree takes effect-- The day passes like the chaff-- Before the burning anger of the LORD comes upon you, Before the day of the LORD'S anger comes upon you.
Zephaniah 2:3 (NASB) Seek the LORD, All you humble of the earth Who have carried out His ordinances; Seek righteousness, seek humility. Perhaps you will be hidden In the day of the LORD'S anger.
Malachi 4:5 (NASB) "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.
Acts 2:20 (NASB) 'THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME.
1 Corinthians 5:5 (NASB) I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 (NASB) For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
2 Thessalonians 2:2 (NASB) that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2 Peter 3:10 (NASB) But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
That isn't speaking of the Church or rapture, that is when God gathers those Jews who were scattered throughout the world back into the Land of Israel...
Jeremiah 23:3 (KJV) And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
Micah 2:12 (KJV) I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men.
That passage says 'is as' not 'is'. It is a simile and cannot be used as an equation.
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Some of what you say is true.
But concerning the ac,it only says " revealed",which will be seen clearly by believers.
The church age ends right away. There is no need for the church to stick around but for maybe a few weeks or days. And possibly even before the ac "appears".
If you take a look at that verse containing " apostacy" it ONLY LITTERALLY SAYS "DEPARTURE".
"from the faith" IS NOT THERE.
Only implied. (Which is not set in stone)
IOW, we dont know.
It is one of those open ended things. We will see. Time will tell.
I dont NEED it to be one or the other.
Some do,and like rev 20 they "read into it" what it never says. Mainly that there is "a resurrection" of those that got their heads chopped off during the gt,are resurrected postrib.
There is nothing there pointing to it or implying it.
In fact it is rather abstract to assume there is a post trib resurrection.
But concerning the ac,it only says " revealed",which will be seen clearly by believers.
The church age ends right away. There is no need for the church to stick around but for maybe a few weeks or days. And possibly even before the ac "appears".
If you take a look at that verse containing " apostacy" it ONLY LITTERALLY SAYS "DEPARTURE".
"from the faith" IS NOT THERE.
Only implied. (Which is not set in stone)
IOW, we dont know.
It is one of those open ended things. We will see. Time will tell.
I dont NEED it to be one or the other.
Some do,and like rev 20 they "read into it" what it never says. Mainly that there is "a resurrection" of those that got their heads chopped off during the gt,are resurrected postrib.
There is nothing there pointing to it or implying it.
In fact it is rather abstract to assume there is a post trib resurrection.
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Completely agree with this assessment from Gotquestions: Pencil me in for Pretribulation Rapture:
What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?
Question: "What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?"
Answer: The rapture and the second coming of Christ are often confused. Sometimes it is difficult to determine whether a scripture verse is referring to the rapture or the second coming. However, in studying end-times Bible prophecy, it is very important to differentiate between the two.
The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. The second coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.
The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:
1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).
2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).
4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).
5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?
1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).
3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).
The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.
What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?
Answer: The rapture and the second coming of Christ are often confused. Sometimes it is difficult to determine whether a scripture verse is referring to the rapture or the second coming. However, in studying end-times Bible prophecy, it is very important to differentiate between the two.
The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. The second coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.
The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:
1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).
2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).
4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).
5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?
1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).
3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).
The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.
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Pretrib rapture is one of the easiest of all doctrines to defend.
Postrib has holes in it an aircraft carrier could pass through.
There is not a single postrib rapture verse in the bible.
It is magic,that postrib rapture doctrine.
Ignore or remove my verses and POOOOF! We have a postrib rapture.
(Note that postribs lean heavy on the ancients,the dead men of old. And know that they formed their erroneous beliefs BEFORE Israel became a nation)
Israel becoming A nation changes the entire dynamic.
Postrib has holes in it an aircraft carrier could pass through.
There is not a single postrib rapture verse in the bible.
It is magic,that postrib rapture doctrine.
Ignore or remove my verses and POOOOF! We have a postrib rapture.
(Note that postribs lean heavy on the ancients,the dead men of old. And know that they formed their erroneous beliefs BEFORE Israel became a nation)
Israel becoming A nation changes the entire dynamic.
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We can say that the Church is not destined for wrath (1Th 5:9), whereas the Jews making a Covenant with death (Isa 28:15, 18) are destined for Jacob's Trouble (Jer 30:7). So it appears the Church won't be here and most of the events will happen in Israel concerning the Jews as God once again deals directly with israel.
Agreed.
I believe it is a mistake to have the viewpoint that "wrath" is speaking only of the latter moments of [what we call] the tribulation period/7-yrs/etc [variously named]… for the following reasons:
"and to await His Son [out-]from the heavens, whom He raised out from the dead--Jesus, the one delivering us [out-]from the wrath coming." 1Th1:10, which "wrath coming" I believe involves all of the following (for the readers' consideration):
--the "7 Vials/Bowls" = "the seven LAST plagues"..."because IN THEM the wrath of God was COMPLETED" (not "is STARTED"; I believe these take place in the last 1/4 of the 7 yrs, approx)
--mid-trib - "[Satan cast down unto the earth] having great wrath, because he knoweth he hath but a short time" [1260 days remaining]
--during the 6 [of 7] Trumpets, the 2W's "1260 days" [have power] "to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they will." [see also Rev22:8's mention of "the plagues of this book"]; and I believe these "6-Trumpets/2W's-1260-d" STRADDLE the two halves (so starting about 1/4 of the way INTO the 7 yrs)
--Seal 2's "WARS" I believe is when the "Gog-Magog" war takes place (among other wars [parallel Mt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11]), where Ezek38:18-19 uses "wrath" words; and 39:7 says, "so [/in this way] will *I make* My holy name known in the midst of MY PEOPLE ISRAEL..." [note Rom9:26/Hos1:10 re: Israel; versus 9:25/Hos2:23b re: the Gentiles; and the wording of what Rom 9:26 is saying, "And it shall come to pass, that in the place where IT WAS SAID UNTO THEM, 'YE are NOT My people'; there shall they be called the children [/sons] of the living God." See also, Gen45:2, "there STOOD NO MAN with him, while Joseph MADE *HIMSELF *KNOWN unto his brethren" (when there were "yet five years" of the 7-yr famine remaining, Gen45:6 [and while Joseph was yet "separate from his brothers" (living in a separate place from them)]); and Gen46:2 "And God spake unto Israel in the visions OF THE NIGHT" (see also Dan7:7, etc
)]
--Seal 1's equivalent of the "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence/parousia" of the man of sin IN HIS TIME; which is the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE']" of many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that will follow on from that INITIAL one; and how (coupled with this understanding) 2Th2:7b-8a is paralleling the wording of Lamentations 2:3-4 (in a JUDGMENT context), where it says (amongst other "wrath" words), "he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy" (effectively saying, "NOW, go ahead and sic 'em!" Just like, "the one restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be], AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed..."
So yes, "the wrath coming" I see as encompassing ALL of that, and not just the final moments of the 7-yr period [like "the Vials/Bowls" only] or thereabouts (and ALL of which is the "DARKNESS/DARK/'IN THE NIGHT'" time period with its "judgments" unfolding upon the earth over the course of some time [DOTL time period], when Jesus Himself will "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13; Rev4-5; etc]).
I believe it is a mistake to have the viewpoint that "wrath" is speaking only of the latter moments of [what we call] the tribulation period/7-yrs/etc [variously named]… for the following reasons:
"and to await His Son [out-]from the heavens, whom He raised out from the dead--Jesus, the one delivering us [out-]from the wrath coming." 1Th1:10, which "wrath coming" I believe involves all of the following (for the readers' consideration):
--the "7 Vials/Bowls" = "the seven LAST plagues"..."because IN THEM the wrath of God was COMPLETED" (not "is STARTED"; I believe these take place in the last 1/4 of the 7 yrs, approx)
--mid-trib - "[Satan cast down unto the earth] having great wrath, because he knoweth he hath but a short time" [1260 days remaining]
--during the 6 [of 7] Trumpets, the 2W's "1260 days" [have power] "to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they will." [see also Rev22:8's mention of "the plagues of this book"]; and I believe these "6-Trumpets/2W's-1260-d" STRADDLE the two halves (so starting about 1/4 of the way INTO the 7 yrs)
--Seal 2's "WARS" I believe is when the "Gog-Magog" war takes place (among other wars [parallel Mt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11]), where Ezek38:18-19 uses "wrath" words; and 39:7 says, "so [/in this way] will *I make* My holy name known in the midst of MY PEOPLE ISRAEL..." [note Rom9:26/Hos1:10 re: Israel; versus 9:25/Hos2:23b re: the Gentiles; and the wording of what Rom 9:26 is saying, "And it shall come to pass, that in the place where IT WAS SAID UNTO THEM, 'YE are NOT My people'; there shall they be called the children [/sons] of the living God." See also, Gen45:2, "there STOOD NO MAN with him, while Joseph MADE *HIMSELF *KNOWN unto his brethren" (when there were "yet five years" of the 7-yr famine remaining, Gen45:6 [and while Joseph was yet "separate from his brothers" (living in a separate place from them)]); and Gen46:2 "And God spake unto Israel in the visions OF THE NIGHT" (see also Dan7:7, etc
)]--Seal 1's equivalent of the "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence/parousia" of the man of sin IN HIS TIME; which is the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE']" of many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that will follow on from that INITIAL one; and how (coupled with this understanding) 2Th2:7b-8a is paralleling the wording of Lamentations 2:3-4 (in a JUDGMENT context), where it says (amongst other "wrath" words), "he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy" (effectively saying, "NOW, go ahead and sic 'em!" Just like, "the one restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be], AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed..."
So yes, "the wrath coming" I see as encompassing ALL of that, and not just the final moments of the 7-yr period [like "the Vials/Bowls" only] or thereabouts (and ALL of which is the "DARKNESS/DARK/'IN THE NIGHT'" time period with its "judgments" unfolding upon the earth over the course of some time [DOTL time period], when Jesus Himself will "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13; Rev4-5; etc]).
Agreed.
I believe it is a mistake to have the viewpoint that "wrath" is speaking only of the latter moments of [what we call] the tribulation period/7-yrs/etc [variously named]… for the following reasons:
"and to await His Son [out-]from the heavens, whom He raised out from the dead--Jesus, the one delivering us [out-]from the wrath coming." 1Th1:10, which "wrath coming" I believe involves all of the following (for the readers' consideration):
--the "7 Vials/Bowls" = "the seven LAST plagues"..."because IN THEM the wrath of God was COMPLETED" (not "is STARTED"; I believe these take place in the last 1/4 of the 7 yrs, approx)
--mid-trib - "[Satan cast down unto the earth] having great wrath, because he knoweth he hath but a short time" [1260 days remaining]
--during the 6 [of 7] Trumpets, the 2W's "1260 days" [have power] "to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they will." [see also Rev22:8's mention of "the plagues of this book"]; and I believe these "6-Trumpets/2W's-1260-d" STRADDLE the two halves (so starting about 1/4 of the way INTO the 7 yrs)
--Seal 2's "WARS" I believe is when the "Gog-Magog" war takes place (among other wars [parallel Mt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11]), where Ezek38:18-19 uses "wrath" words; and 39:7 says, "so [/in this way] will *I make* My holy name known in the midst of MY PEOPLE ISRAEL..." [note Rom9:26/Hos1:10 re: Israel; versus 9:25/Hos2:23b re: the Gentiles; and the wording of what Rom 9:26 is saying, "And it shall come to pass, that in the place where IT WAS SAID UNTO THEM, 'YE are NOT My people'; there shall they be called the children [/sons] of the living God." See also, Gen45:2, "there STOOD NO MAN with him, while Joseph MADE *HIMSELF *KNOWN unto his brethren" (when there were "yet five years" of the 7-yr famine remaining, Gen45:6 [and while Joseph was yet "separate from his brothers" (living in a separate place from them)]); and Gen46:2 "And God spake unto Israel in the visions OF THE NIGHT" (see also Dan7:7, etc )]
--Seal 1's equivalent of the "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence/parousia" of the man of sin IN HIS TIME; which is the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE']" of many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that will follow on from that INITIAL one; and how (coupled with this understanding) 2Th2:7b-8a is paralleling the wording of Lamentations 2:3-4 (in a JUDGMENT context), where it says (amongst other "wrath" words), "he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy" (effectively saying, "NOW, go ahead and sic 'em!" Just like, "the one restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be], AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed..."
So yes, "the wrath coming" I see as encompassing ALL of that, and not just the final moments of the 7-yr period [like "the Vials/Bowls" only] or thereabouts (and ALL of which is the "DARKNESS/DARK/'IN THE NIGHT'" time period with its "judgments" unfolding upon the earth over the course of some time [DOTL time period], when Jesus Himself will "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13; Rev4-5; etc]).
I believe it is a mistake to have the viewpoint that "wrath" is speaking only of the latter moments of [what we call] the tribulation period/7-yrs/etc [variously named]… for the following reasons:
"and to await His Son [out-]from the heavens, whom He raised out from the dead--Jesus, the one delivering us [out-]from the wrath coming." 1Th1:10, which "wrath coming" I believe involves all of the following (for the readers' consideration):
--the "7 Vials/Bowls" = "the seven LAST plagues"..."because IN THEM the wrath of God was COMPLETED" (not "is STARTED"; I believe these take place in the last 1/4 of the 7 yrs, approx)
--mid-trib - "[Satan cast down unto the earth] having great wrath, because he knoweth he hath but a short time" [1260 days remaining]
--during the 6 [of 7] Trumpets, the 2W's "1260 days" [have power] "to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they will." [see also Rev22:8's mention of "the plagues of this book"]; and I believe these "6-Trumpets/2W's-1260-d" STRADDLE the two halves (so starting about 1/4 of the way INTO the 7 yrs)
--Seal 2's "WARS" I believe is when the "Gog-Magog" war takes place (among other wars [parallel Mt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11]), where Ezek38:18-19 uses "wrath" words; and 39:7 says, "so [/in this way] will *I make* My holy name known in the midst of MY PEOPLE ISRAEL..." [note Rom9:26/Hos1:10 re: Israel; versus 9:25/Hos2:23b re: the Gentiles; and the wording of what Rom 9:26 is saying, "And it shall come to pass, that in the place where IT WAS SAID UNTO THEM, 'YE are NOT My people'; there shall they be called the children [/sons] of the living God." See also, Gen45:2, "there STOOD NO MAN with him, while Joseph MADE *HIMSELF *KNOWN unto his brethren" (when there were "yet five years" of the 7-yr famine remaining, Gen45:6 [and while Joseph was yet "separate from his brothers" (living in a separate place from them)]); and Gen46:2 "And God spake unto Israel in the visions OF THE NIGHT" (see also Dan7:7, etc
)]--Seal 1's equivalent of the "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence/parousia" of the man of sin IN HIS TIME; which is the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE']" of many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that will follow on from that INITIAL one; and how (coupled with this understanding) 2Th2:7b-8a is paralleling the wording of Lamentations 2:3-4 (in a JUDGMENT context), where it says (amongst other "wrath" words), "he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy" (effectively saying, "NOW, go ahead and sic 'em!" Just like, "the one restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be], AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed..."
So yes, "the wrath coming" I see as encompassing ALL of that, and not just the final moments of the 7-yr period [like "the Vials/Bowls" only] or thereabouts (and ALL of which is the "DARKNESS/DARK/'IN THE NIGHT'" time period with its "judgments" unfolding upon the earth over the course of some time [DOTL time period], when Jesus Himself will "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13; Rev4-5; etc]).