Five Foolish Virgins VS Five Wise Virgins

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posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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Are you saying some who are saved and part of the body of Christ will be cast out?

That goes directly against what Jesus said.

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” John 6:37
no she's saying there are "super-Christians" who get to be part of the Bride, that God loves more than mere "regular Christians" who only get to spectate at the wedding. apparently in this view the saved who are saved-but-not-special don't live with Christ in eternity like the Bride ((the especially Christian Christians)) does.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
why isn't it like the widow in 1 Kings 17 whose oil never ran out until she ran out of vessels?
or is it in fact complementary to this; have they ran out of vessels -- the hour being at hand and the foolish ones not being suitable vessels, like old wineskins? :unsure:


everything in the NT is connected to things in the OT; none of scripture is accidental or coincidental
Not parables. Parables are not allegories. They are not riddles. They are illustrations from common life to make a point. They have a way of emphasizing a point that could be made without the illustration but the illustration drives the point home or causes an emotional response. Most parables result in an expectation that the hearer now respond accordingly. They usually require a decision. Will you be one of the wise or the foolish when Jesus comes again? Everytime the word oil is used in the bible you would not want to replace it with Holy Spirit.

If you think about it, several different parables using different common life (at their time) examples were given to teach the same point about watching and praying and being ready for the coming of the Lord. These different parables using different illustrations that contained different details should suggest to our common sense that making to much of the allegory of the detail would not be defensible because the details change in each parable that teach the same lesson.

I don't question that Jesus used the specific parables for specific reasons to get his point across and that the details have the power to grant spiritual illumination and that such details have the potential of ever increasing revelation concerning that point.

However, I question when someone uses the details that he gave and make them into something that actually distracts from the point he expected the hearers to comprehend. It is easy to do if we turn a parable into an allegory.

Remember when the apostles were trying to figure out what "the leaven of the pharisees" meant and were coming up with things like "it's because we forgot to bring bread" and Jesus said, he was talking about the teaching of the Pharisees. That was not a parable or an allegory it was a metaphor. Every time the word leaven is used in the OT you would not replace it with "teachings of the Pharisees"
 
S

Scribe

Guest
why does God make a distinction between having a "lamp" and having "oil" ?
what is the meaning of "
lamps" versus the meaning of "oil" ?
how can fools have spiritual "
lamps" yet be without spiritual "oil" ?
who are "
those who sell" oil ?


we're here:

Wherefore is there a price in the hand of a fool to get wisdom,
seeing he hath no heart to it?
(Proverbs 17:16)
Because the oil is not the Holy Spirit and to allegorize is to miss the point. The point is that we must not fall into sin and think we can get right at the last moment. Remember the other parables like a steward of the house deciding that the Lord delayed his coming and so begins to beat the servants and get drunk. The Lord comes back and finds him not ready, he can't get that house in order in time. He was supposed to be taking care of things, and shucked his responsibilites. Probably thought he had time to deal with it later. Take all the parables together and see the point rather than allegorizing the oil and the virginity of unmarried young women.

But I am
The ones with extra oil are in love with Jesus Christ, not just saved but they keep their passionate first love stirred.

The others do not stir up the Holy Spirit within them....their flame goes out. They lost their first love and were not ready at His coming.

Jesus Christ is going to marry those that LOVE Him. Many are saved but, few LOVE Him.
The scripture that says stir up the gift which is in you which was given by the laying on of hands was not a salvation reference. It was Paul telling Timothy to operate in the gifts of the Holy Spirit for ministry and these were given when he was given the baptism of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands.

You don't stir up oil in a lamp so that would not even apply to the parable.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Not parables. Parables are not allegories. They are not riddles. They are illustrations from common life to make a point. They have a way of emphasizing a point that could be made without the illustration but the illustration drives the point home or causes an emotional response. Most parables result in an expectation that the hearer now respond accordingly. They usually require a decision. Will you be one of the wise or the foolish when Jesus comes again? Everytime the word oil is used in the bible you would not want to replace it with Holy Spirit.

If you think about it, several different parables using different common life (at their time) examples were given to teach the same point about watching and praying and being ready for the coming of the Lord. These different parables using different illustrations that contained different details should suggest to our common sense that making to much of the allegory of the detail would not be defensible because the details change in each parable that teach the same lesson.

I don't question that Jesus used the specific parables for specific reasons to get his point across and that the details have the power to grant spiritual illumination and that such details have the potential of ever increasing revelation concerning that point.

However, I question when someone uses the details that he gave and make them into something that actually distracts from the point he expected the hearers to comprehend. It is easy to do if we turn a parable into an allegory.

Remember when the apostles were trying to figure out what "the leaven of the pharisees" meant and were coming up with things like "it's because we forgot to bring bread" and Jesus said, he was talking about the teaching of the Pharisees. That was not a parable or an allegory it was a metaphor. Every time the word leaven is used in the OT you would not replace it with "teachings of the Pharisees"
hmm, from becomeawritertoday.com i read:

Both the allegory and metaphor compare two unrelated ideas or objects to create more impactful writing.
So what's the difference?
In general, metaphor is a short phrase or paragraph that compares two seemingly unrelated things to make a point, while an allegory is a long narrative that uses a seemingly unrelated story to teach a lesson or prove a point.
and scripture gives us an example of the interpretation of a parable in Matthew 13 with the sower and the seeds. He explains that the entire parable is allegorical - each individual element is metaphorical. He also describes why He teaches in parables -- so that mysteries of the kingdom may be understood by those to whom they are revealed, and hidden from those to whom they are not revealed. hidden meanings? i would call that a riddle -- and so would Merriam-Webster:

riddle: a mystifying, misleading, or puzzling question posed as a problem to be solved or guessed
He gives enigmatic teachings and we are supposed to search out the meaning. if the only meaning was "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming" ((Matthew 25:13)) then this is not a parable according to Christ's definition of parables in Matthew 13, because the meaning isn't hidden & needing to be revealed; it's plainly stated for everyone and Matthew 25:1-12 are completely unnecessary, idle words. Solomon tells us that "He that hath knowledge spareth his words" - so why is the Messiah giving these parables if they have no significance beyond "watch and keep ready!" ? is it because the simple won't understand this simple statement, so they need stories to help them get it? that's contrary to what He tells us is the reason He speaks in parables: they are meant to hide knowledge from those who do not believe, and reveal knowledge to those who do. they are meant for the wise, not the fool -- and scripture tells us the fool is simple & loves simplicity ((Proverbs 1:22-23)); by contrast wisdom is complex, deep, and layered - even while wisdom may be simply stated it belies great & profound meaning.

moreover Paul gives us an example of how to interpret scripture in Galatians 4 -- the account of Abraham, Sarah and Hagar is an allegory -- he specifically uses that word, allégoreó in Greek, to describe those things. so if literal events in the histories in the Bible are meant to be understood as allegory, how is it that parables are not? God is the author of scripture, and Christ is God having taken on the form and substance of a man: it's the same Author speaking to us in the same book in the same way. we're supposed to find more than superficial meaning in all these things.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
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The custom was that the young unmarried friends of the Bridegroom were to wait until the announcement was made and join the procession with lights. None of these were the bride. She was always at another location and given to the Bridegroom by her father.

Jewish men did not marry a whole group of virgins. That did not happen. Didn't we already have this discussion?

A simple Google search should lead you to plenty of resources to show you that none of these are the actual bride. I won't keep arguing about it. It's not up for debate.
So you are not part of the bride of Christ?

The parable ends with Jesus telling the bride to be ready.

Reframing it to some idea of " friends" of the bride destroys the message.
The message is to those RAPTURED OR TO BE RAPTURED....the bride of Christ.

Just a few sentences before the parable Jesus frames watching, waiting, being ready with noah and the " one taken" verses.
Ending with watching and waiting...( the rapture) then another rapture example with the 10 virgins. All three have a segment taken and another one left behind..

The rapture is the gathering of the bride.

The virgin parable is the rapture
 

Absolutely

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Yes, you got me there. A simple Google search is very likely to turn up posts from unreliable sources where people say things out of ignorance. I should have said most scholarly commentaries for the past several hundred years would tell you about this custom and how they were the friends of the Bridegroom and Bride and joined the procession and were not the bride. The notes and bibliographies in these scholarly books will cite the resources for where the custom occurs in ancient Jewish literature. That would be the correct way to find the facts. Hopefully a proper Google search could get you there. Maybe something like "Ancient Jewish Literature recording Ancient Jewish Wedding customs" or "documented evidence that the 10 virgins in Jesus Parables were friends of the Bridegroom" eventually you should be able to find the oldest records in extant that describe these ancient Jewish wedding customs that Jesus was referring to. Or pull out a Bible Dictionary, or a New Testament Customs at the time of Christ book and they should have the resources cited as to where this has been recorded in ancient literature.

It would be a good discussion if people were to find that data and post it to support their views. I will see what I can find when I have time. I am currently studying for a class on 1 Corinthians, so I can't spend too much time on side research projects.
Or find out the roots of needing the bride of Christ to be "friends of the bride"

Why would anyone need to go there.

I mean the bride and Jesus go into a room and the door is shut.
The unworthy carnal believers ( foolish virgins) are shut out.

Then a warning to be ready.

Ready bridesmaids?????

Would that not be carnal believers to not be counted as the bride?????

Bridesmaids????
Friends of the bride????

Where in the word are his people bridesmaids????
 

Absolutely

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Jul 23, 2018
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The ones with extra oil are in love with Jesus Christ, not just saved but they keep their passionate first love stirred.

The others do not stir up the Holy Spirit within them....their flame goes out. They lost their first love and were not ready at His coming.

Jesus Christ is going to marry those that LOVE Him. Many are saved but, few LOVE Him.
BINGO

You said that a lot better than i could have
 

Absolutely

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Jul 23, 2018
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Some spiritual virgins will cease to be virgins through the Apostasy. I believe that is exactly what is being taught in the parable.
The foolish ones left behind will be forced to take the mark or be beheaded.

So yes some may take the mark
 

Absolutely

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In Jewish custom, is it mandated that ALL “friends” of the Bridegroom have to be virgins? :unsure:

Or that EVERYONE invited to a Jewish wedding MUST be a virgin? :unsure:

No, it is the Bride that MUST be a virgin.

This is a parable with secret meaning....hidden from those that are prideful in their human intellect that trust in their human reasoning.
The parable is a doctrine destroyer.

If i see the parable for what it is, and my view is authenticated by Gods word...then it is the most vivid picture of the rapture in the bible.

You are one of the few that see it.
 

Absolutely

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Jul 23, 2018
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Because the oil is not the Holy Spirit and to allegorize is to miss the point. The point is that we must not fall into sin and think we can get right at the last moment. Remember the other parables like a steward of the house deciding that the Lord delayed his coming and so begins to beat the servants and get drunk. The Lord comes back and finds him not ready, he can't get that house in order in time. He was supposed to be taking care of things, and shucked his responsibilites. Probably thought he had time to deal with it later. Take all the parables together and see the point rather than allegorizing the oil and the virginity of unmarried young women.

But I am


The scripture that says stir up the gift which is in you which was given by the laying on of hands was not a salvation reference. It was Paul telling Timothy to operate in the gifts of the Holy Spirit for ministry and these were given when he was given the baptism of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands.

You don't stir up oil in a lamp so that would not even apply to the parable.
You just finished saying leaven ( sin) is not consistently reframed by " leaven of the pharasees"

Then turn right around and do the same thing with. "oil"
 

Absolutely

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no she's saying there are "super-Christians" who get to be part of the Bride, that God loves more than mere "regular Christians" who only get to spectate at the wedding. apparently in this view the saved who are saved-but-not-special don't live with Christ in eternity like the Bride ((the especially Christian Christians)) does.
Reread the parable.

The carnal believers are denied entrance in the rapture

Left behind.

Jesus frames the EXACT SAME THING. 2 other places.

That makes 3 witneses for worthy believers recieving something that others do not.

Oh wait...the believers crowns also are a worthy vs unworthy dynamic.

Solid bible
 

Runningman

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If the oil is the Holy Spirit and they can run out of oil then it would be true that you can run out of Holy Spirit.

There isn't a verse to say we can run out of Holy Spirit once we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. Or that we can be unpurchased once purchased by the blood of Christ. Or that the gift of salvation by grace through faith can be rescinded. Or our adoption as sons and daughters can be turned into unadoption.

The oil must be something else.

Matthew 15:8-9
8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Meaning there is a big difference between lipservice and loving God. A big difference between head knowledge of the gospel and real saving faith. This is how we know Jesus.

If you've ever known Jesus through genuine love and sincere faith then you will not be among those to who He says "depart from me, I never knew you."

The oil is our sincere loving relationship to the flame who is God. If you love God then always love God and love Him with all you have. This is why this is the first and greatest commandment.

This is why the parable is about a wedding: a bride should love her husband.

As far as I can see this is the only logical conclusion to why Jesus said to the 5 foolish versions "depart from Me. I never knew you."
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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no she's saying there are "super-Christians" who get to be part of the Bride, that God loves more than mere "regular Christians" who only get to spectate at the wedding. apparently in this view the saved who are saved-but-not-special don't live with Christ in eternity like the Bride ((the especially Christian Christians)) does.
Not being made one with Christ following the resurrection and judgment of all at the end of this age... as far as what the Bible teaches, those not "rewarded" with life ever after go to the lake of fire. Isn't that how you understand it? I have never heard of second class citizens in Christ, of mere witnesses to the wedding yet saved. Do you agree with what Lafftur is saying? Can anyone show me the verses supporting this view?
 

Magenta

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The foolish ones left behind will be forced to take the mark or be beheaded.

So yes some may take the mark
If God’s chosen ones could be deceived in such a way, God’s choice of them would be defeated, and that is not possible. All who are in Christ have been predestined, called, justified, and will eventually be glorified (Romans 8:30). They have been given to Christ; and of all those who have been given to Him, He will lose none (John 10:28). source
 

Absolutely

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Not being made one with Christ following the resurrection and judgment of all at the end of this age... as far as what the Bible teaches, those not "rewarded" with life ever after go to the lake of fire. Isn't that how you understand it? I have never heard of second class citizens in Christ, of mere witnesses to the wedding yet saved. Do you agree with what Lafftur is saying? Can anyone show me the verses supporting this view?
yes the crowns are worthy vs unworthy ( rewards)

Jesus said " pray that you may be counted worthy..."
(Speaking to believers, of the rapture)

Jesus said " because you have kept my word i will keep you from the hour of testing..."

So it is bible that some will be unworthy and miss out on several things.
 

Absolutely

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If God’s chosen ones could be deceived in such a way, God’s choice of them would be defeated, and that is not possible. All who are in Christ have been predestined, called, justified, and will eventually be glorified (Romans 8:30). They have been given to Christ; and of all those who have been given to Him, He will lose none (John 10:28). source
I hope so.

In foxes book of martyrs God came to those martyrs and some felt zero pain.

I don't really know about those that failed and renounced their God and faith.

It would be kind of depressing researching it.

I was appalled at our mens bible study that i could not get those men to confess a resolve if faced with martyrdom.

To me, i have to settle it beforehand and know in my "knower" i will never deny him.

How many believers are like my friends at the bible study?

It appears some will take the mark.
( love this world)
 

Magenta

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yes the crowns are worthy vs unworthy ( rewards)

Jesus said " pray that you may be counted worthy..."
(Speaking to believers, of the rapture)

Jesus said " because you have kept my word i will keep you from the hour of testing..."

So it is bible that some will be unworthy and miss out on several things.
The question is, can any saved miss out on being joined eternally with Christ?

Because not being wed to Him sounds just like that.
 

Absolutely

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If God’s chosen ones could be deceived in such a way, God’s choice of them would be defeated, and that is not possible. All who are in Christ have been predestined, called, justified, and will eventually be glorified (Romans 8:30). They have been given to Christ; and of all those who have been given to Him, He will lose none (John 10:28). source
..are you aware that those left behind and martyred recieve the highest reward?

The martyrs reward?