Five Foolish Virgins VS Five Wise Virgins

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posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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You are the one fighting what the verse says. You didn't even bother to study what the Hebrew says in the verse. It's a deflowered, former virgin being discussed. Again, someone going from good or innocent to something opposite. That's what we are seeing in common with that female, Judas and the five foolish women.
God doesn't say virgin when God doesn't mean virgin. the Hebrew means "oppressed" not raped. there's a perfectly good Hebrew word for rape and it doesn't happen to be in that verse. virgin does happen to be the word God put there, and i'm not the one trying to argue that God used the wrong word.

virgin does not always mean saved.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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Jesus knew from before the creation of the universe who Judas is, what is in his heart, and what he will do. Jesus is not 'fooled' and Jesus does not make a mistake. He chose Judas to fulfill prophecy.

Judas was never a believer. Judas was never trusted by Christ, even while Judas was the most powerful apostle, leader of all of them.
he fools men but not God.

Doesn't change that just like the foolish virgins, there was a change towards wickedness. Judas went from disciple to traitor, and brides to rejected and unknown. All of them did something that was bad and foolish and they paid the price for it.
 

posthuman

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Doesn't change that just like the foolish virgins, there was a change towards wickedness. Judas went from disciple to traitor, and brides to rejected and unknown. All of them did something that was bad and foolish and they paid the price for it.

Judas was evil and unbelieving from the beginning and that never changed. a thief and a liar and murderer, son of his father.
from the beginning, the foolish virgins took no oil.

what does oil represent in this parable?
 

ewq1938

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God doesn't say virgin when God doesn't mean virgin. the Hebrew means "oppressed" not raped.

The Hebrew word means she was deflowered. That's from scholars.

H6231
עָשַׁק
‛âshaq
aw-shak'
A primitive root (compare H6229); to press upon, that is, oopress, defraud, violate, overflow: - get deceitfully, deceive, defraud, drink up, (use) oppress ([-ion], -or), do violence (wrong).
Total KJV occurrences: 36


An âshaq bethûlâh is a violated virgin, which means to be deflowered and lose the virgin status.

The foolish virgins were actually still spiritual virgins when they were engaged to the Bridegroom.
 

ewq1938

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what does oil represent in this parable? [/COLOR][/FONT]
I believe it's faith in the true Christ. It can also been seen as truth or the Holy Spirit. Whatever it is, it is essential to participate in the Marriage with Christ.
 

posthuman

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I believe it's faith in the true Christ. It can also been seen as truth or the Holy Spirit. Whatever it is, it is essential to participate in the Marriage with Christ.
ok
so the foolish virgins had no faith.
what does that make them -- saved or unsaved?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
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what we know happens in the parable is that someone waiting for the Groom to appear was a fool and had no oil - they went out to buy it, were shut out, and God does not know them.

what i don't think i agree with you about is whether that fool was the blood-bought & sanctified Bride of Christ which God will lose none of, will never forsake, is faithful to complete the work He began in, and whom no one can snatch from His hand.
@ewq1938 let's be careful that we don't cease to be friends, ok? i'm sad about Scribe leaving already :(

i'm going to say that similarly in the last section of Matthew 24, the "evil servant" who was getting drunk and beating other servants because he doesn't think the Master will catch him, is not saved and never was saved.
i'm going to say that similarly in the next parable in Matthew 25, the wicked servant who buries his talent in the sand and accuses the Master of being evil, is not saved and never was saved.


i do not think we're talking about people losing their salvation. i think we're talking about people who are condemned because they reject Christ and do not believe Him or put their trust in Him. we are talking about people who have no oil, who think God does not see the evil they do, and who accuse God of sin. these are given in stark contrast to the wise virgins and the faithful servants. in the immediate audience they are representative of the Pharisees & Sadducees & Herodians standing there listening and plotting to kill God. in the greater context they are representative of Antichrist and the world which hates its Maker.




i suspect our disagreements here in our discussion are centered around believing salvation is eternal vs. salvation can be forfeit by our failures. i believe salvation is a supernatural work of God acting upon a person from outside a person, redeeming sinners. i believe that because it is God's work, not man's, it cannot fail -- He is faithful to complete what He began in us. i am guessing you do not believe this -- i am guessing you believe that by lack of works or willpower or gumption or intelligence or whatever, we can fail to merit salvation & lose it. is that so?
if so we are approaching this parable from different first-principles, and that explains why we're diverging in what we see in it.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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The damned aren't invited to the wedding let alone sleep in
the same room as the brides. The foolish became the damned.
Matthew 22:1 Once again, Jesus spoke to them in parables: 2 “The kingdom
of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent
his servants to call those he had invited to the banquet, but they refused to come.


4 Again, he sent other servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my
dinner. My oxen and fattened cattle have been killed, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’


5 But they paid no attention and went away, one to his field, another to his
business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them, and killed them.


7 The king was enraged, and he sent his troops to destroy those murderers and burn their city.
8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited were not worthy.
9 Go therefore to the crossroads and invite to the banquet as many as you can find.’


10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered everyone they could find,
both evil and good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.


11 But when the king came in to see the guests, he spotted a man who was not dressed
in wedding clothes. 12 ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’


But the man was speechless.

13 Then the king told the servants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him into
the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’


14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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ok
so the foolish virgins had no faith.
what does that make them -- saved or unsaved?
No unsaved person would be invited to the marriage whether guest or bride so they were saved but became unsaved through a foolish decision. Like I said, I think it is Apostasy that this happens.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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@ewq1938 let's be careful that we don't cease to be friends, ok? i'm sad about Scribe leaving already :(

i'm going to say that similarly in the last section of Matthew 24, the "evil servant" who was getting drunk and beating other servants because he doesn't think the Master will catch him, is not saved and never was saved.


Sure but that evil servant is nothing like a virgin invited to a wedding. This is a foolish person not evil per se'. Their fates will be the same though.



i do not think we're talking about people losing their salvation. i think we're talking about people who are condemned because they reject Christ and do not believe Him or put their trust in Him. we are talking about people who have no oil,
They had some oil which is why the lamp went out while they slept. That and being originally intended to take part in the wedding and beiong virgin like the others all point to these being Christians but something happens that causes Christ to reject them...they run out of something absolutely required to be saved and marry Christ spiritually.




i suspect our disagreements here in our discussion are centered around believing salvation is eternal vs. salvation can be forfeit by our failures. i believe salvation is a supernatural work of God acting upon a person from outside a person, redeeming sinners. i believe that because it is God's work, not man's, it cannot fail -- He is faithful to complete what He began in us. i am guessing you do not believe this -- i am guessing you believe that by lack of works or willpower or gumption or intelligence or whatever, we can fail to merit salvation & lose it. is that so?
if so we are approaching this parable from different first-principles, and that explains why we're diverging in what we see in it.
Yes, I reject OSAS because of examples like the foolish virgins and the Apostasy/falling away Paul wrote about. It's basically the original fall of Adam and Eve but on a far greater scale and that same serpent is involved again.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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Completely different parable and this takes place after the wedding when they have a feast. The parable of the ten virgins is BEFORE the wedding and is speaking about the brides that are getting married. No evil brides were engaged.


Matthew 22:1 Once again, Jesus spoke to them in parables: 2 “The kingdom
of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent
his servants to call those he had invited to the banquet, but they refused to come.


4 Again, he sent other servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my
dinner. My oxen and fattened cattle have been killed, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’


5 But they paid no attention and went away, one to his field, another to his
business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them, and killed them.


7 The king was enraged, and he sent his troops to destroy those murderers and burn their city.
8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited were not worthy.
9 Go therefore to the crossroads and invite to the banquet as many as you can find.’


10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered everyone they could find,
both evil and good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.


11 But when the king came in to see the guests, he spotted a man who was not dressed
in wedding clothes. 12 ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’


But the man was speechless.

13 Then the king told the servants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him into
the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’


14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
36,101
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Completely different parable and this takes place after the wedding when they have a feast. The parable of the ten virgins is BEFORE the wedding and is speaking about the brides that are getting married. No evil brides were engaged.
Good AND evil were invited, which you seemed to deny. Did you miss that?

Do you see no corollary between these two parables? I do.

The person improperly clothed equates to a virgin without oil.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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Good AND evil were invited, which you seemed to deny. Did you miss that?


I commented on it already.

Do you see no corollary between these two parables? I do.
It is error to force evil people from one parable into the parable of the ten virgins. That's called Eisegesis.


The person improperly clothed equates to a virgin without oil.
Yet he was evil, not foolish. He was also not part of the wedding, nor a bride of that wedding.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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I commented on it already.
Sure... in a self-contradictory fashion.

It is error to force evil people from one parable into the parable of the ten virgins. That's called Eisegesis.
False accusation.

Yet he was evil, not foolish. He was also not part of the wedding, nor a bride of that wedding.
He was invited but lacked something necessary, same as the foolish virgins. Too bad you missed it.

You might also benefit to educate yourself on how weddings took place back then ;)
 

Runningman

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Mar 4, 2020
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Did anyone consider that since it's a wedding then the missing ingredient was love? Would you want to marry 5 brides who didn't love you? Or how about just 1? Would you want to still know them?

I think this parable is maybe about repentance and love? Did 5 foolish virgins try to repent, but by the time the bridegroom showed up it was too late? Is it too late to repent when Jesus actually does return?

Similar concepts below. They left their first love and Jesus threatened to remove their candlestick unless they repent.

Revelation 2:5-6
4Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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Did anyone consider that since it's a wedding then the missing ingredient was love? Would you want to marry 5 brides who didn't love you? Or how about just 1? Would you want to still know them?

I think this parable is maybe about repentance and love? Did 5 foolish virgins try to repent, but by the time the bridegroom showed up it was too late? Is it too late to repent when Jesus actually does return?

Similar concepts below. They left their first love and Jesus threatened to remove their candlestick unless they repent.

Revelation 2:5-6
4Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
And that's why I have been saying this parable is about the Apostasy of the Great Tribulation.
 

Absolutely

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Jul 23, 2018
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It was basically said that they will not be wed to Christ, which is what I am questioning.

Therefore, they would be at the wedding as spectators only.

Two classes of saved people...

But how can one attain to life ever after if not joined to/made one with Him (as marriage symbolizes) at that time?

I am perplexed.
The marriage in heaven is not consumated as one would be on earth.
I believe it will be at the drinking of the wine. The marriage will be covenant.
The gathering of the bride is for intimate time with Jesus. The union of two intimate parties.

The cup will be the covenant cup.
Imo.

The entire bride seated. Including the covenant jews from rev 14.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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No unsaved person would be invited to the marriage whether guest or bride so they were saved but became unsaved through a foolish decision. Like I said, I think it is Apostasy that this happens.
we agree these foolish virgins are people in the household of the Bride, right?
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
(Jude 4)
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
(1 John 2:19)
while the Groom tarries ((preparing a place)), here are two places where scripture says there are people in the household of the Bride who don't belong there. who are 'ordained to condemnation' -- tares among the wheat. goats to be separated from the sheep. that's who i'm going to say the foolish virgins are.. and look! they go our from the household, showing that they are not of the wise, and the door is shut to them.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
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They hold virginity as a high standard in many "Non-Christian" religions, would they also be saved?
Hello Truth7t7

Jesus is speaking of the Kingdom of God/Heaven not "earthly" things. The 10 virgins are saved Believers - they are clean from the world in Christ and have not committed adultery with the false gods/religions of the world.

The dividing line between the foolish virgins and the wise is great passionate LOVE for God. Remember when the prostitute washed Jesus' feet with her tears and dried them with her hair....her sins were forgiven and her love was great for Jesus, whereas Simon was critical of her and Jesus.

Jesus told a story to Simon of two debtors...and it was the one with the greater debt that loved Him the most.

Love is a dividing line.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
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Are you saying some who are saved and part of the body of Christ will be cast out?

That goes directly against what Jesus said.

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” John 6:37
No, I am NOT saying that part of the Body of Christ will be cast out. ALL true Believers are saved and NEVER lose their salvation in Christ.

However, ALL true Believers do NOT LOVE Jesus the same.....and so what?! Jesus still loves all of us the same and never changes.

It's so important that Believers keep their First Love burning and not grow cold. :love:(y)