Food for thought

[Rainrider]

Well my friends, we are now back to salvation. Though we never really were off the topic as a whole, you see salvation as I stated before covers many topics. From being humble, to being a warier. Now don't get me wrong, a true warier is one that is ever watchful, thinks on their feet, and knows the danger signs of the enemy. They are ready and willing to do battle if they must, however most wish to avoid battle if they can.
One thing that salvation does is work. It works to change the hearts, minds, and at times even the personality of them that are will to surrender all. Our King knows us, and we know Him by his voice.
In Psalms we read.

Psa 51:12Restore to me the joy of your salvation,
and make me willing to obey you.

Here we find that salvation comes with a nasty word. Obedience. For to obey, they must now what the order is. If your king gave the order to retreat, and you attack, you may find yourself on the field of battle by your self. However if your king said attack, when you look up, he will fighting right by your side.
Yeshua is a true warier, Even when it came to give His own life, He did so. He is the example we should always strive to be like. Even when what we think isn't in line with His orders. His laws as they stand, are to be followed with out question. Now for me that means every last one. 613 from the Torah, and 1050 in the New Testament. Don't worry, there is no test coming.
I do wish for all of you to think on this one question. Can you say you in truth, that you are under the authority of a king if you disregard his law? No you really can't. back in the day, the king would have your head if you made claim there was no law for you, as you have given your self to said king.
I am so glad we have a King that isn't so ready to end us. Well that is if you don't think about the flood, or what He wanted to do to Israel. Moses in that instance gave us a clear look at what a true warier is. He spoke to His Lord as though they were on equal ground. Like speaking to a friend.
We should never be afraid of speaking our mind. If we didn't like how something came about, or the results of that thing, Let Him know. He won't beat you, or cut you off. What He will do is speak to you. It may be a chance encounter with someone, that says what you needed to hear, or you may see an open Bible and read the pages that are open.
What it really comes down to is truly knowing our one true Shepard. After all, did not Yeshua say,

Jhn 10:14“I am the good shepherd; I know my own sheep, and they know me,

 

[Rainrider]

Thanks for sharing what you have. But dialog is useful only when both sides are open to learn. I wish you the highest of blessings. I only remained on this thread long enough to offer my Thanks. I won't be following it any more.

As I said, before, I am human. I know that I don't hold all the answers, and I need to know if I am wrong. Yet it seems you have already passed judgment, and handed down your verdict. So in a way, you are right, true learning can only come once a person becomes aware that they are human, and knows they don't have all the answers.
just becoase a person doesn't see the world as you do, is no reason to run. In fact, when one takes on a challenge they do so in hopes of finding something they have over looked. I see the Word as a puzzle. It has peaces scattered all over the place. Unlike a puzzle of a pitcher, they don't have inter locking peaces that will only fit one way. One passage may hold a clue for 2 or 3 topics.
I understand if you are in way ready to put your understanding to the test of being Scripturely sound. Many are not. I do find it sad that when a true test comes up, so many are so unwilling to slow down and see if they can pass it. Me I am always ready. You see I teach His word to any that are willing to hear. Doing so demands that I have a full understanding. Knowing that I don't have all the answers, I must seek out the truth, even if I may think I know, I am smart enough to understand that I really don't know everything. I do thank you for the attempt to make your point, and your attempt to belittle me. It really tells a lot of a person. I am however to say, I am here if you decide to try for real. You never know, we may both learn something.

 

[Blain]

Not a direct reply to anyone. So if it steeps on your toes, then you must have need to hear this.
There is always a big deal made of names, and titles. Once we move out side of what the Word tells us, we walk up hill in the sand. Now I am sure anyone that has done so understands this saying.
The thing is, we all want to be better than the other person, and if said person doesn't fall in line, as seen here, they come under fire. It will not change my mind, HaShem's true name is Yod Hay vav hay. That comes not from my ideas, rather from the Torah. HaShem gave that name to Moses as His true name. So that name isn't christain, nor Jewish. Rather it is from HaShem, not man.
We do good to try and keep personal thoughts, and feelings out of Biblical study. You see when we try to belittle others with nothing more than our own ideas, we tend to let our true selves show though.
Now I may be speaking only for my self here, though I don't believe that is the case. Yet, when we show respect to others we seem to always get that same respect in return. When we try to force others into a box, they don't like the looks of, it is always meet with resistance.
Now I know I don't always hold my toung, and I do say things in the kindest way I can think of. Yet in the end, I am never sure if it will seen in the way it was intended. It is for that reason that I hold back on a lot of what comes to mind.
trust me from here, or face to face, I can get as nasty as the next person. I can run down your faith, your beliefs, and church. however that would suver to display ones insecurity and lack of understanding.
I walked away from this sight once in the past. On my return I find some of the same people still doing their best to push me out. So why did walk away? I had some vary personal things come up. Some thing that me truly question my own faith. So I spent the next 5 years working that out. What I found was that it wasn't my faith on trial, it was my loving faithfulness. It wasn't really on trial by HaShem, more like I just couldn't see Him at work i my life.
We loss focus if look at hat is wrong in our life, and think more of how it will change a vary part of who we are. take a person that gets burned over lets say 20% of his body. Part of that we will say is his face. Said person now 2 choices, he can pick himself up and keep working to spread the Word, or fall into a dark hole and never be seen again.
For me it was nothing like that, although it did lead to a point where I simply couldn't see how to move foreword. All the questions of why me, poor little me, and please come join my pitty party, I am lonely here all by my self. So yes, ever the best of us can take that road. Just read the Book of Job, and you will see how we should deal with it.
I will say, that had I stayed on here over that time, I would have done more harm than good. I need this to stand out, so maybe it will not be over looked. So please over look the caps.
WE ALL NEED TO THINK BEFORE WE SAY SOMETHING. BEING OFFENSIVE DOES LITTLE TO ADD TO ANY STUDY ON SOUND BIBLICAL TEACHINGS.

It seems to me you need to speak more not less Very impressive to be sure.

 

[Rainrider]

It seems to me you need to speak more not less Very impressive to be sure.

Well people seem to dislike truth. Oddly they are willing to say, "YOUR WRONG" yet are unwilling to make sure you know how, and why what you say is wrong. I once heard that if you lock 2 Rabbis in a room with one passage. Let them know they can't come out until they find the truth of said passage, it will become heated. Yet they will not stop. Why? Truth is the most impotent thing when looking at scripture. If a person is wrong, or you think they are wrong, we have an obligation to work with them to find truth.
It isn't about who is right or wrong, and it doesn't mean one person is smarter than another. It is about truth and nothing more with the Jewish people. Here is how they work it out. Or at lest those I have study with do.
Scripture is the only witness one can call. Yes you do give you line of thought on it. You can use what ever scripture you wish, so long as you can show the relevance. There are debates still on going with the Rabbinic teachings on some topics, that have been on going for years.
Keep in mind, I would never ask, hint, or think that converting to Jewdizum is a good idea. It simply isn't needed. Never has been in all truth. Oh sure you can point to the laws pertaining to Passover and a gentile sitting with a Hebrew family for the Passover meal. Yet not once do you find that they must convert. True they would need to be circumcised. Yet not once does it say they must become Jewish. So that would do nothing to further ones understand, nor will it help to make a point that isn't there. In truth, I think that Sam Peak said it best. He said, (and this not word for word) If a person does change their faith, they must not have much faith to start with.
I also find it said that so many think the Jewish are unsaved. Not that some are, they use wording to make clear they think every Jew is lost, and even though they don't say it out right, are going to hell.
When we pass judgement on a people by our own why of thinking, we do both our selves and them an injustice. How? Well, unless you are talking to others that feel the same way you do, you loss credibility. As well know, Yeshua told us,

Luk 6:37“Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn others, or it will all come back against you. Forgive others, and you will be forgiven.

If we are so willing to over look a simple thing like this, we have no right to teach the word. Why? It shows that we hold a bias for or against a peoples, or group. Again something we not called to hold any place in the Word. If we truly think this is true, how can you ever hope to place salvation before a people that most likely know about that we do? You can't. It is thinking like that, that has lead to the huge mistrust of so called christains and the Hebrew people.
When I was in Israel, I had some ask, Are you Jewish, when I said no, they didn't really run, just walked off as fast as they could. I also had someone ask me that, when they got the answer they asked, Can we get coffee and talk?
Not once did they or I bring up anything about how wrong the other was. We knew that truth was the goal. Oh we talked of Old Testament v New Testament. Old covenant v new, and so on. It didn't take long before I was asked how I got to where I am with my understanding. You could see my answer was like a glass of nice cool water on a hot day to them.
Here is my answer. My grandmother told me everything I had been told was a lie. The Word of truth is not bias, nor doesn't it teach hate in any form. It does teach love, love and more love.
Now I am not going to name any doctrine, or church. Yet I do know her church looks at everything in a negative light.
I started out to read the Bible cover to cover. Now that was a big job for a person that is dyslexic. However I did get it done. I learned a lot with that full reading. Then came the most wonderful, kind, and loving lady this world has ever known. Vicky helped me a lot with reading, and writing. She helped me to tell when I used a b when it should be d, or m when w was needed. As I said before she helped learn to study in a way that worked with how my mind works.
The thing that floored me about this person was their reply. They said, (and this is their exact wording), You are not a christain, chistains hate us. yet you sit here and show respcet, and never tell me I must do this or that.
Now why would that set me back? Well to start, I would never have dreamed that a Jewish book written by all Jewish writers, could ever be seen as condemning them. A book that speaks of love in so many ways as to make one think it holds no bounds on the word, or it's meaning, be used to spread hate. Yet I was hearing that is how so called followers use it. It was also the first time I was told I was Noahide. For anything think whats that. It is a gentile that follows the 7 Noahidic laws.
I am happy to say, I didn't change any thing about my faith, my way of life, nor my way of thinking. What did happen was much more than I would have ever dreamed. I made a great friend, and we can talk about anything and everything. They understand I do use the New Testament, only we use he title BritHadashah.
I say this to make one point. I made a great friend by the use of Love, and understanding. Over the years we have used sarcasm, humor, and at times even heated language with one another. Then what friends never have. The thing is, we both it comes from a place of love. He has learned to at lest read the N.T. and even except that it holds the same teachings as the Tanahk. with the exception of sacrifice.
So when we speak with others, it does little good to show love by hateful words, or belittlement. Yet a bit of sarcasm, can go a long way to show the wrong in their words and action.

 

[Rainrider]

As you may recall I was speaking of obedience when I post on Ps. 51:12. So lets see where the N.T. goes on that topic. Now keep in mind that when Yeshua, or any writer in the N.T. used scripture, they used the O.T. as it was the only scripture they had. So for them to go out side of that, would be a good sign they were not teaching the Word, rather their own words, and thoughts. Now I know, they were guided by the Spirit, and that Paul held more authority than Yeshua. At lest thats what I have been told. As we will see in my next posting, that seems a bit over the top for many reasons.

Mat 19:17“Why ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. But to answer your question—if you want to receive eternal life, keep the commandments.”


Rev 12:17And the dragon was angry at the woman and declared war against the rest of her children—all who keep God’s commandments and maintain their testimony for Jesus.

Though there only 2 passages posted on this, it is clear that keeping HaShem's commandments is something we should strive to do. I will not tell you to keep them as a means of salvation, that simply isn't true. However the Word does say that we should keep them, so who are we to try and say it doesn't?
You see, we don't keep the to be saved, we keep it because we are saved. To say we no longer have the law to follow is a lot like saying, Give your life to HaShem, then you can kill, rape, steel, and lie all you want, and it won't matter. Now if you say, No we can't do that. You only confirm that law is valid, and we should live by it.
Now I know that some will say, Mat.5:17 confirms the removal of the Law, so lets take a look and see.

Mat 5:17"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

As it seems most focus on just the last word, and over look the rest, we should take the time to once more brake down this passage. As we can see it opens by telling DO NOT. that means what follows we are not to do. So what did He tell us not to do? Yeshua said not to think He came to destroy the Laws or the Prophets. So why do so many teach this, and ignore His words not to?
Well they look at just the word fulfill. The last word in this passage.
Now if we use our mind, and logic, we can see that the Laws and the Propets are tied together in this passage, as well others, so now what? well we keep reading.

Mat 5:18"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Now why tell us this? After all He would have known the laws was going to be removed, and man could thin live in sin with no worries right? However as we look closely at this passage, we do find that at some point, the laws may be removed. When every prophecy is fulfilled, then yes this passage does say it will be removed. Yet we live in a time when prophecy is being fulfilled every day. We can see that the world is moving foreword' and setting the stage for Gogs army, as told in Eze. 37.
There is also a push to move the world into a cashless society. Something that is for-told in Rev 13.
I do hope that I am going to be the only one looking at this, and willing to talk about the hows and whys. After a study means that others enter the conversion. I don't bit really,and I do love to see the ideas of others. That is what learning is all about. If we lived in a world where ideas were keep secret, we would still be without fire, tools, cars, plains, cell phones, and the internet. Yes we would be living in a time when ever the stone age would be more advanced that we would be. Enjoy, and think for your self, learn, and pass what you learn to others.

 

[posthuman]

You wrote if not for the Jewish people, you would not have salvation open to you. That's simply not true.
It is true that God created the Jewish nation and set His affection upon them corporately. And for a time, salvation was wrought through the Jews. But that isn't the case today. It is the church of Jesus Christ that is delivering the message of salvation.
And the glory for anything should always be to God.

Romans 11:11-12
I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

 

[posthuman]

I do not believe that born again Christians should be resorting to the terminology of unsaved Jews. "HaShem" ("Name") is a substitute for God our Father, and "Yeshua" is a substitute for the Lord Jesus Christ. We should stick with Christian terminology.

i think it's still "Christian terminology" it's just not English or Anglicized.

 

[Cameron143]

Romans 11:11-12
I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

Sure...their human rebellion, but moreover, God's eternal council. Surely you don't believe if the Jews had not rejected Christ the Gentiles would never been offered salvation.
My concern is that God has broken down every barrier between people groups and some would like to reconstruct those partitions.

 

[Magenta]

As you may recall I was speaking of obedience when I post on Ps. 51:12.

Psalm 51:10 plus 13

 

[Nehemiah6]

i think it's still "Christian terminology" it's just not English or Anglicized.

Christians do not dodge calling "God" God. "HaShem" ( "the Name") is a dodge.

 

[Cameron143]

Big to-do about nothing. Just become all things to all people and stop making more laws.

 

[Rainrider]

Romans 11:11-12
I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

I love that passage, as well as a quote from a teacher I once studied under. When we covered this passage, he said, "HaShem blinded the Jewish people to who Yeshua was for one reason. had they known, they would have done with that as they had with the Torah. Kept it from the world."
Now before anyone gets the idea that I am speaking badly of the Jewish people, set the slips on that. You see, the Torah was given to the Jewish people, and they safeguarded it with their lives at times. True they were to be a light unto the world, and to share the Word with them. Just like the teacher I quoted, may wish to say they never will share what they know. Or think that what they may share is nothing more than useless old crap, we don't need.
However as I have studied with many Rabbis, from all form of their religion, I can say that idea is as about as wrong as any can be. You see from their teachings, a new understanding of the teaching in the N.T. was born. So many things that were lost to me, were found. As well as some things that may seem clear, yet were hidden from view became clear as day.
What we now follow was once called Judeo-Christian. Sadly as move further from the foundation of our faith, we have lost sight of the fact that our faith has it's roots in Judaism. For our thoughts on Tithing, morality, marriage, even how we should love one another. Oddly even sacrifice hasn't been remove from the ideas passed down from the churchs. It has just taken on a new meaning. Funny really, because even the Jewish people now see sacrifice in a new light.

 

[Rainrider]

Sure...their human rebellion, but moreover, God's eternal council. Surely you don't believe if the Jews had not rejected Christ the Gentiles would never been offered salvation.
My concern is that God has broken down every barrier between people groups and some would like to reconstruct those partitions.

Do you really see it that way? You see when one works to restore the Word to it's true context they come under fire from any that simply don't see it, or wish to keep the divide created by man. It is my wish to see both Jew and gentile working side by side, to gain a fuller understanding of our King. When one says that any part of that is lost, they build a wall. They can't share what know, or think they know with them they say are are lost.
Here's why. Lets just say that you came off as condescending to me, or the other way around. Then follow that with belittling statements. Like saying a person is a, I think the phrase so many love to use is Judaizer. This is an offense phrase in many ways. Just as telling one that you know them so well and know they will never change their way of thinking, no matter how well scripture is used to show the wrong in their teachings. When it is clear that they have no understanding of the others reason or purpose in undertaking a study.
When this kind of talk is put out there, you loss the ability to teach. After all, when a person is belittled, and takes it to heart, they stop hearing anything the other has to say. I know I don't take any of that to heart. You see when a person is forced to resort to this kind of thing, it shows a lack of understanding, as well as a lack of wisdom.

 

[Rainrider]

i think it's still "Christian terminology" it's just not English or Anglicized.

In all truth, the NAME of HaShem is not Jewish, nor christain. It came from HaShem, and should be seen as such. So why use the phrase HaShem? It is used as a sign of respect. As we know, the Name Yod Hah Vav Hay has never been used by gentiles, and today, not many Jewish people know how it is to be said.
Yet in the end, to bicker over wording is the devils way of sowing division. Paul warned of this when he said,

2Ti 2:14Remind everyone about these things, and command them in God's presence to stop fighting over words. Such arguments are useless, and they can ruin those who hear them.

 

[Rainrider]

Well my lap top is really slow today. I am going to post tomorrow after I run maintenance on this silly thing.

 

[Rainrider]

Sorry I didn't get to this yesterday like I said I would. Life got in the way, and something that had to get done came up.
Anyway, I was looking back I see that for some reason at lest one person wishes to make the claim that laws are now being made up. Sad really, when this wasn't about the law to start with. Yet as is the case it is here now, and should be dealt with.
Here's the thing, every person on this sight that tells us they walk in the path placed before us, and shown in the life of Yeshua, does follow the laws of HaShem. You see they teach that to lie is sin, homosexuality is sin, theft is sin, and so on down the line.
From that it is safe to say they don't really think the law has been removed, they just want it removed from them. After all as a "saved" person, we are not under the law. Yet they don't see, or won't say it out load anyway, that even as a saved person, sin can remove your name from the book of life. As seen in Rom.11.

Rom 11:21For if God did not spare the original branches, he won't spare you either.

So what is sin really? Do we know or do we just make it up as we go along? John tells us this.

1Jo 3:4Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God.

When one turns their life over to HaShem, and truly do their best to walk a sin free life from that point on, walks in in laws. Now get me wrong, I know full well that many of the 613 commandments given in Torah simply don't fit with the lives of every person on earth. The laws for the priest don't fall on the everyday Jewish people, just as the laws for women can never be placed on a man.
As for making up laws, I have no idea where that false hood come from. Nor do I care. I do know that making a false accusation is a sin in of it's self. As seen in the following passages.

Exo 23:1“You must not pass along false rumors. You must not cooperate with evil people by lying on the witness stand.


Job 11:11For he knows those who are false,
and he takes note of all their sins.


Pro 12:17An honest witness tells the truth;
a false witness tells lies.

Now lets look at something Yeshua had to say, that fits well here in more than one way.

Mat 7:21"Not everyone who calls out to me, 'Lord! Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.
Mat 7:22On judgment day many will say to me, 'Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.'
Mat 7:23But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws.'

It was this passage that lead me to the understand that I had it all wrong. salvation isn't a gift that it can't be removed. It is given, or loaned, freely, and wilful sin can see that grace removed from us. Now before anyone goes to speaking for HaShem, trying to dismiss the words of Yeshua, keep in mind, you are the final judge. You can't see what is in a persons heart, nor do you see the true motive behind their actions.
Salvation is a wonderful thing, it can't be paid for with money, nor can we pay for it by doing nothing more than following the laws. It takes faith in HaShem, and the acceptance of the blood shed for us by Yeshua. So please don't try telling anyone I said we can gain slavation without faith, that will be called as a lie on the spot.
Remember I have always said, and you can look back my threads and see it, We don't keep the Law to be saved, we keep it because we are saved.

 

[Rainrider]

Ok lets move past this if we can. Time think about the idea of being one in Yeshua. I can't think of who broached this topic, however I also didn't forget I was coming back to it. So lets see how the wording is used, and look at it MIGHT mean in the minds of someone other than our selves.

Gal 3:28There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Here is the passage most quoted for this topic. So does it mean we will be one nation, or in faith? I did as I ask everyone to do, and read more than just that one passage, I read the full chapter, and yes I know it covers a lot of ground. Just as I am sure someone will try to use it to get to another topic. Trust me I will indulge you for a bit, then bring it back to this topic.

Gal 3:26For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

When one reads the full chapter, you will see talk of the law and so on. However the passages just before and just after seem to put it into context. At lest for me. As we see here, it does seem to indicate that it is speaking of in faith, not so much in nationality.
At times when we read the Word, we see things in a way that makes us feel good about our selves. Thats not a bad thing. After all it is full of great stories, and fils us with hope. Hope is never bad, unless you are trying to enslave others. Then you would to remove all hope.
I had someone tell me once that a Jewish person will not listen to a Christian. that may be right in some cases, however in others that simply doesn't hold. I know of one Rabbi that has opened his home, and heart to christians. Yet I also know that he has closed that same door to others. Why would that be?
The ones he has let in, came to him looking for truth, and never passage judgment. They started seek first, common ground. They exchanged ideas, and some time they would just agree to disagree. Love was in their hearts, and shown in their actions. If we are ever to be One In Yeshua, the same loving kindness He showed to all that came to Him, must show in us, at all times.
I do so pray that someone that doesn't see this as we do will post their understand. After all, with only one side speaking, it can't be a learning process can it.

 

[Rainrider]

Although I think I am talking to my self more than anything, should bring about some thought for everyone that reads it. I am talking about how well we really know the King. Do we know who He really is, or do we just think we do?
I understand that most people wish to except that Yeshua and HaShem are not the same, and that they do have different jobs. So lets think if we may, is every word of the Bible true? If so, does it back the idea of just one God, or does it teach that we have 2? If we have 2, then we may have a bigger problem than we know. If only one, then why do some worship 2?
First let us look at the idea of only one. To do this we must first decide, is it at all possible that Yeshua was really HaShem in flesh? What does the Word say about this idea? Is it crazy, or does it fit with what the Word teaches us?
All I ask is that you keep in mind we are looking at just one side of the coin right now. We will look at the other next, so please keep this in mind, and conduct your selves as though this is you working to find understanding, and stay with in the thought presented.

Jhn 1:1In the beginning the Word already existed.
The Word was with God,
and the Word was God.

Now I know that many say read the Gospel of John first. It is after all way different than the rest. However when one reads it, do they understand what is being said? Here we find that the Word was with HaShem, and was HaShem. Something we can all understand. After all when we pick up the Word, are we not holding His Word of truth in our hand? Is it not as close to seeing Him as we can get right now?

Jhn 1:3God created everything through him,
and nothing was created except through him.

I am sure we would all agree that HaShem is the creator of all things. That said creation was done by His Word, and only one thing stood as different. Man Kind was FORMED by His hand, and He breathed the breath of life into man.

Jhn 1:4The Word gave life to everything that was created,
and his life brought light to everyone.

Now I don't expect everyone to look at this say, That's right, just how it came about, or Every word here is true. You see I have a bit of doubt myself in this. However it is rather an interesting point. You see there are some that say the reason HaShem created light twice, was the first light was His glory, and man simply couldn't live walking in it. Although there is something being missed in that teaching. You see if we say who is the light of the world, you get the same answer every time. Yeshua. When we speak of the light that shines in someones eyes, we think the Holy Spirit is alive and well in that person. So how do we know if we only have one god when we think of 3 all working together toward the same goal?

Jhn 1:9The one who is the true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. Jhn 1:10He came into the very world he created, but the world didn't recognize him.

This brings to mind why this idea came to be in here. Food isn't about feeding a persons tumy, it's about feeding the whole person, mind body and soul. If we feed the whole person, then they may see that Yeshua is or isn't here. They may learn to see who He is, and by that, know the real deal, ever when an imposter looks so much like we hoped for. The Jewish people didn't know Him when He walked with them, why? Some will say they were so full of sin they couldn't see truth if it hit them in face, and shined a bright on it's self. I don't agree with the. I see a people so mislead, and so hoping to be free, that when Yeshua didn't go to war, they couldn't understand why. So they couldn't see what was right before them. Now I do ask, please don't pass judgement on a people you have no hope of knowing, or understanding.

Jhn 1:12But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God.

Now I ask, who can you think of that fulfills this last passage? Keep that in mind.

Jhn 1:14So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father's one and only Son.

I know most translations read, Became F leash. Both hold the same intention, and one may hod a bit more true to the original Hebrew used by John. Yet as we said before, bickering over words does little for anyone. Seeking the truth in any teaching on the other hand does profit us all.

I am going to leave this right now, and try to get some sleep. I do hope there is someone out there willing to look for more passages that can be seen to in some way back this idea. If not no worries, I will be bring them out in a bit.

 

[Rainrider]

I am now going to look at a few more passages that reflect the idea of Yeshua and HaShem being the same person.

Jhn 18:6As Jesus said "I AM he," they all drew back and fell to the ground!

Now this passage does indict that they understood I AM as being HaShem. The idea that they drew back, and fell to the ground show a reverence for the name. As well as an understanding of what was being said.

Let us keep in mind that although a thing may seem to something, in no way means that what we see is in fact truth.
I am going to close this side of the debate with one last passage.

Rom 9:5Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are their ancestors, and Christ himself was an Israelite as far as his human nature is concerned. And he is God, the one who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.

We have talked of keeping a passage in context with the Whole of the Word, and though the passages given above do seem to indicate the They are one and the same, are we trurly staying with the context, and inent of the passages given here? When I return to talking to my self, we will look at why it may not be as it seems. After all more than a hand full of times, Yeshua uses the phrase, My father. No matter one looks at this phrase, it is hard to see that the father and Son can be one in the same. So until next time. Same place, same channel, just not the same time.

 

[Rainrider]

We will now look at the flip side of this topic. As we all know, Yeshua talked of his Father many times in Scripture, so lets look at that now, and see are they really one and the same, or can they be 2 separate individuates.

Mat 7:21“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.

It is clear for any that can read Yeshua does speak of His father, and in a manner that leads one to conclude they must be 2 separate beings. Keep in mind that one can not find truth with a simple reading, we must study and look all teachings from the Word to find truth.

Mat 10:32“Everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.

If they are one and the same as some say, why would Yeshua need to acknowledge us to Him-self?

Jhn 5:18So the Jewish leaders tried all the harder to find a way to kill him. For he not only broke the Sabbath, he called God his Father, thereby making himself equal with God.

There is no arguing that John's writings are a bit different than the others. Some say this is to his learning, others say it shows John's Kabbalistic following. No matter what you may think, we must truly do our best to understand why John holds some things up for us to see, that others don't. However I fell that would be better looked at in it's own thread.
John has shown us that Yeshua calls HaShem His father in more than one verse.

Rev 3:21Those who are victorious will sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat with my Father on his throne.

Now we have a few passages that show They are not the same, yet have some that seem to show they are the same, what do we do next? We must find a way to reconcile the 2 thoughts, or seek to dismiss one and keep the other. However as some have shown, dismissing one without sound reason is a bit harder to do than one may think. After all, if one teaches just one, they may well find they are faced with the questions they hold no answer for. Trust me, an answer of because I said so, is no answer at all. Even when you may not think thats the answer you give, it may seem that way to others. So when i return, we will talk of at lest 2 ways to recincile the 2 lines of thought.
It may shock me when I read it. LOL I do hope we find an answer to this, that leads to 100% truth.