For Sabbath keepers, How does obedience to the Sabbath affect your Salvation?

[TruthFromFrank]

This is just made up nonsense. When Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was, he declared one that was written on the scroll placed without the ark, and didn't mention any that were written in stone.

Just because you stated that this is made up nonsense, open your Bible at Exod 24:12 and read there that God's laws, the ten Commandments were in fact written on stone by God Himself and if you read Exod 32:15-16, you will get confirmation of that. If you read Exod 31:18 you will realize that God gave Moses the first set of laws on stone and when you read Exod 34:1,4,28 you will realize that a second set of laws on stone were written by God as Moses destroyed the golden calf with the first set he received from God. Now, if you read Exod 40:20, you will find that the Law of God was placed inside the ark.
When Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was, He referred to Love, to Love God, and to Love your neighbour. Now, if you analyze God's Commandments, you will realize that the Commandments of God specify what Love is, and that is exactly what Jesus Christ referred to. The first four Commandments refer to the Love towards God and the last six Commandments to the Love towards your neighbour. There needs to be some sort of measuring tool, if I may use the term, that will show mankind what do you need to do to show your Love and by living out the Commandments of God, you are showing your Love to God and your neighbour. Before criticizing anybody again, please ask for proof before doing it. I hope you will understand.

 

[sparkman]

The Ten Commandments are a summary of the Old Covenant
Exodus 34:28 “So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the word of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.
Exodus 31:18 “And he gave to Moses when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
Deut 4:13 “And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone”.
Deut 9:9 “When I went up the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant that the Lord made with you.”
Deut 9:11 “And at the end of forty days and forty nights the Lord gave me the two tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant.”
The Old Covenant was an agreement between God and Israel, not God and Christians
Ex 31:12-17 And the Lord said to Moses, “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you. You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death. Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.”
The Old Covenant is no longer in effect for ANYONE
Heb 8:13-9:4 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness. For a tent was prepared, the first section, in which were the lampstand and the table, and the bread of the Presence. It is called the Holy Place. Behind the second curtain was a second section called the Most Holy Place, having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron’s staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant.
Gal 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterwards, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.
Gal 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
Gal 3:24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith
Gal 3:25 But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a guardian
2 Cor 3:4-18 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even much more glory? For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory. Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
The Sabbath, as part of the Old Covenant, is not in affect for ANYONE
Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years! I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.
Rom 14:5-6 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
Col 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ
Jesus is our Sabbath or spiritual rest, and we enter into that spiritual rest by placing our faith in Him
Matt 11:28-30 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and lean from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Heb 4:1-8 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter my rest. “ although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” And again in this passage he said, “They shall not enter my rest.”. Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, “Today”, saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted. “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.” For if Joshua had not given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from is works as God did from his. Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
Christians are under the New Covenant, which has much higher demands and different commandments
Luke 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.”
Heb 9:15 Therefore, he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Jn 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
Jn 15:12 This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Jn 15:17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another
Rom 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
I am a former Sabbathkeeper due to my association as a new believer with Worldwide Church of God (now called Grace Communion International). Worldwide Church of God came to realize in 1995 that Christians are under the New Covenant, and not the Old Covenant, and the Sabbath does not apply to Christians under the New Covenant. It was a sign of the Old Covenant (like baptism and the Lord’s Supper are signs of the New Covenant), and is not a moral absolute like Sabbathkeepers claim. Sabbathkeeping doctrine invariably takes the focus off the true gospel, which is about Jesus Christ and salvation by grace through faith in Him (Eph 2:8-9). As a Sabbathkeeper, I rarely heard messages about God’s grace and love; the message of such organizations invariably focuses on the Sabbath. Jesus Christ was also placed on the backburner and was not the focus of their teaching. If you would like good sources of information in regards to the Sabbath check out Grace Communion International’s website at https://www.gci.org/law I now attend an Evangelical Free church that focuses on Jesus Christ and salvation through Him, which is the true gospel.

 

[dianalaneph]

The other day I was reminded to keep the Sabbath. For this is pleasing to God. If you are a Christian you know that this is very important. You have been faithful in small things I will make you in charge of bigger things. We can argue all day and forever but what does the Spirit tells us. Seek and you will find me when you seek me with all your heart with all your mind. Pray! Go back to your bible. God bless!

 

[sparkman]

The other day I was reminded to keep the Sabbath. For this is pleasing to God. If you are a Christian you know that this is very important. You have been faithful in small things I will make you in charge of bigger things. We can argue all day and forever but what does the Spirit tells us. Seek and you will find me when you seek me with all your heart with all your mind. Pray! Go back to your bible. God bless!

Read Colossians 2:16-17 in conjunction with Hebrews 10:1-2 and Hebrews 9:9-11. Colossians 2:16-17 groups the Sabbath and holy days with food and drink offerings and New Moons. Hebrews 10:1-2 uses the same language of "shadows of things to come" with regards to animal sacrifices that Colossians 2:16-17 uses in regards to the Sabbath and Holy Days. Hebrews 9:9-11 says that food and drink offerings were only applicable until the time of reformation, which is when Christ came.

It's clear that Colossians 2:16-17 places the Sabbath and Holy Days in the category of inapplicable things such as animal sacrifices and food and drink offerings. In addition, the entire chapter of Colossians 2 refutes the idea that Christians need to pursue ceremonial and ritualistic aspects of the Old Covenant or other forms of ascetic practices in order to experience the fullness of the knowledge of Christ.

Those who are saved are already complete in Christ. See Colossians 2:10.

I was a Sabbathkeeper for the first decade of my Christianity, and I attest to the fact that I learned infinitely more about salvation after rejecting it as unbiblical.

Here's a more detailed explanation of the above:

One of the teachings of Armstrongite groups, which include United Church of God, Restored Church of God, and Philadelphia Church of God, is that Sabbath and annual festival observance is a requirement for salvation.

This assertion is easily disproved by examining three verses in conjunction:

Colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Hebrews 9:9-11 (which is symbolic for the present age). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation

Hebrews 10:1-2 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins?

Colossians 2:16-17 is used by Armstrongites to claim that the Sabbath and Holy Days apply to New Covenant believers, however it says the exact opposite. Follow this reasoning carefully. Read the verses in your Bible and think about how they interconnect. Challenge my thinking if you believe I am wrong.

1. Colossians 2:16-17 groups food and drink offerings, annual festivals, new moons and the Sabbath together. This grouping assumes that they are in the same level of applicability to the audience, which are Gentile Christians in Colossae.
2. Hebrews 9:9-11 says that food and drink offerings were imposed only until the time of reformation, which is identified in verse 11 as when Christ came as our sin offering.
3. Hebrews 10:1-2 uses the language of “shadow of things to come” in reference to animal sacrifices, which are obviously not applicable to New Covenant believers.
4. Since the same language is used in regards to the Sabbath and annual festivals in Colossians 2:16-17, the Sabbath and annual festivals are not applicable to New Covenant believers.

Additionally, I see strong evidence that it is those who claim that Old Covenant observances are required for New Covenant believers are the ones who are engaging in judging. It is a common thing for Armstrongites to claim that individuals who have placed their faith in Christ and don’t observe the Sabbath, annual festivals and clean/unclean meat laws are unbelievers. Judaizers in the New Testament did the exact same thing. Examples of this are found in these verses: Galatians 4:21-31 (notice that the children of the flesh persecute the children of the spirit), Galatians 5:1-12, Colossians 2:16-17, and Philippians 3:1-4.

The Sabbath, annual festivals, and clean/unclean meat laws were ceremonial or ritualistic elements of the Old Covenant, and were meant to separate Israel from the nations around them in terms of behavior.

Ephesians 2: 11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

The same thing happens with regards to Armstrongites, of which I was a part of. They separate themselves from the rest of Christianity and throw verbal rocks at them, claiming that other Christians are unbelievers. It is abominable behavior. I would never associate with an Armstrongite group again due to this sort of behavior. I have seen the clear fruits of conversion in non-Sabbathkeepers. In fact, their fruits are more evident than those of the Sabbathkeepers I associated with as a member of an Armstrongite congregation.

 

[gotime]

Simply put, does keeping the Sabbath have any effect on your salvation or standing before God?

How does obedience effect your salvation?

 

[sparkman]

How does obedience effect your salvation?

Christians are obedient to that which pertains to THEM. The Sabbath applied to the ancient nation of Israel.

The Old Covenant is not applicable to Christians whatsoever. And the Sabbath was the sign of the Old Covenant, along with physical circumcision.

 

[gotime]

Christians are obedient to that which pertains to THEM. The Sabbath applied to the ancient nation of Israel.

The Old Covenant is not applicable to Christians whatsoever. And the Sabbath was the sign of the Old Covenant, along with physical circumcision.

You lump the Sabbath and circumcision together but there is a difference. Circumcision is clearly shown to be physically no longer needed while no such stipulation is given about the Sabbath.

Keeping all 10 was a sign of the old covenant.

Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be mine own possession from among all peoples: for all the earth is mine:

Exo 34:28 And he was there with Jehovah forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

of course the priesthood also was part of the covenant with Israel. Yet you do not get rid of all of the ten commandments which are the old covenant.

What is my point? simply saying its old covenant clearly even by your own standards does not mean no longer binding for Christians.

I agree that Christians are obedient to that which pertains to them, so the real issue here is does the Sabbath like the other nine carry over into the new covenant or is it singled out as no longer needed. only scripture can answer this and as Yet I have not fond one that says we no longer have to keep the Sabbath.

 

[gotime]

In fact if you study the old testament and the sanctuary you will find that it is a shadow of coming things in Christ. The 10 commandments including the Sabbath were in the Most Holy Place which is where Israel was judged once a year. Revelation reveals that the plagues of Judgement come forth from the Most Holy Place in heaven where John sees the ark of the covenant. why does he see in the last days the 10 commandments connected to the judgement just like the earthly foreshadowed? Hebrews makes it clear that the earthly was there to show the real one in heaven that only began after Jesus had died and went to heaven to be our High priest. Just as the earthly showed that only at the end of the year did the High priest go in to judge.

The 10 commandments are a law of heaven not of just Jews or man but of the universe under the ruler ship of the Great God of heaven.

 

[sparkman]

You lump the Sabbath and circumcision together but there is a difference. Circumcision is clearly shown to be physically no longer needed while no such stipulation is given about the Sabbath.

Keeping all 10 was a sign of the old covenant.

Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be mine own possession from among all peoples: for all the earth is mine:

Exo 34:28 And he was there with Jehovah forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

of course the priesthood also was part of the covenant with Israel. Yet you do not get rid of all of the ten commandments which are the old covenant.

What is my point? simply saying its old covenant clearly even by your own standards does not mean no longer binding for Christians.

I agree that Christians are obedient to that which pertains to them, so the real issue here is does the Sabbath like the other nine carry over into the new covenant or is it singled out as no longer needed. only scripture can answer this and as Yet I have not fond one that says we no longer have to keep the Sabbath.

Colossians 2:16-17 is clear on this issue.

I suppose you will attempt to use the SDA argument that the word Sabbath in these verses does not apply to the weekly Sabbath. The SDA argument in this regard is not valid. They will admit that the other 59 times that sabbaton is translated Sabbath in the New Testament, it means the weekly Sabbath, but in this one case, it does not mean the weekly Sabbath. That is an inconsistent argumentation.

In regards to circumcision and the Sabbath, the following analysis draws that distinct comparison between the two:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/117464-sabbath-circumcision-comparison.html

In regards to whether the Ten Commandments is separate from the rest of the Old Covenant, this analysis reflects that it is not; the Old Covenant is one unified law:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/117465-structure-old-covenant.html

The Sabbath was placed in the center of the Ten Commandments, which was in itself the Covenant, because it was the sign of the Covenant. This arrangement follows the structure of other near Eastern treaty documents between a conquering nation and the conquered nation.

The other nine commandments are moral absolutes, but the Sabbath command is not, as distasteful as that sounds to a SDA.

I was a Sabbathkeeper for over a decade as part of Worldwide Church of God, another Sabbath and festival keeping cult, so I have spent more than a little time researching this topic. I am also acquainted with the SDA arguments concerning the Sabbath through reading a book called Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff. I believe I gave you a copy of a video of a message he produced. I don't agree with everything he teaches but his central message is true and Scriptural.

The bigger issue I have with Sabbath and festival keepers is their attitude toward other Christians, though..deeming them to be unsaved or spiritually inferior. As a former Sabbathkeeper, I considered them to be unsaved. I know some SDAs believe the same thing. And almost all SDAs believe that those who fail to keep the Sabbath are going to be lost if they are around during the Tribulation. If an individual's central message was on Jesus Christ and salvation by grace through faith alone in HIm, and they kept the Sabbath and festivals as a matter of preference rather than a condition or necessary fruit of salvaiton, I would have no issue with them. However that isn't usually the case.

So, how are you going to explain Colossians 2:16-17? You can see my complete analysis below in my comments.

Or..feel free to bring up an additional argument..i'd be glad to address it

 

[sparkman]

In addition, Colossians 2:16-17 groups circumcision with the Sabbath and Holy Days as things that are inapplicable to New Covenant Christians, so it isn't me that's associating them together..it is Scripture itself.

The theme of Colossians 2 is how believers are complete in Christ and don't need fruitcake heretics and their Judaizing and ascetic practices to gain this completeness in Christ. Part of this involves circumcision, food and drink offerings, Sabbaths, festivals and New Moons. Other parts involve ascetic practices which are very reminiscent of what Ellen G. White taught.

By the way, she didn't even keep her own rules. She loved oysters. That goes beyond eating meat and into eating unclean meats according to typical Judaizing teachings.

I know you don't like it when EGW is brought up, but since the twin pillars of the SDA claim to be the remant church are keeping the Sabbath and the "spirit of prophecy". which they equate with Ellen G. White, you are forced to deal with her prophetess-ship because of this claim. Either you are or are not the remnant church, and if you are the remnant church, you must defend the second point by your own criteria.

In fact if you study the old testament and the sanctuary you will find that it is a shadow of coming things in Christ. The 10 commandments including the Sabbath were in the Most Holy Place which is where Israel was judged once a year. Revelation reveals that the plagues of Judgement come forth from the Most Holy Place in heaven where John sees the ark of the covenant. why does he see in the last days the 10 commandments connected to the judgement just like the earthly foreshadowed? Hebrews makes it clear that the earthly was there to show the real one in heaven that only began after Jesus had died and went to heaven to be our High priest. Just as the earthly showed that only at the end of the year did the High priest go in to judge.

The 10 commandments are a law of heaven not of just Jews or man but of the universe under the ruler ship of the Great God of heaven.

 

[gotime]

context is important I would hope you would agree that context says much on any wording bible or not.

That there are different Sabbaths in the old covenant is none contestable. Yet they all say Sabbath. so context in every case will tell us which Sabbaths are being spoken of.

You have two basic options.

option 1, Sabbaths that are part of the sacrificial feasts

Option 2, the 7th day Sabbath of the 10 commandments

Now context of your cited texts:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Shadow of "things to come" notice the things Paul has mentioned before including the Sabbath is contextually things Paul said are shadows of things to come. In other words things that when they were given had not Yet come but once Christ had come they meet what they pointed forward to.

So lets ask a very simple logical question.

Which of the two options pointed forward, 1 or both or none. There are the only options and examining scripture will easily tell us so that we don't put our own spin on it.

As for Sabbaths that were part of sacrificial feasts what Does Scripture say?

Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

So note that the sacrifices only pointed to Jesus the true sacrifice. logically all that was part of them would then find its fulfillment in Christ thus they indeed were a shadow that pointed forward to Jesus.

So at least one points forward and thus fits the Colossians context.

SO lets examine then the commandment Sabbath in the 10 commandments.

Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

according to the commandment itself it points not forward to something that would come but backwards to something that is done already. Jesus is creator thus Lord of The Sabbath.

So clearly the 7th day Sabbath according to the 10 commandments does not fit the context. It was not for things to come but for a reality that had been well established before that time.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

notice the introduction to the very book you are using establishes these truths. Jesus brought redemption by His blood not animal sacrifices and sacrificial ordinances which include the Sabbaths that were part of them.

But Jesus is still the creator an immutable unchangeable Fact.

So main point, Context clearly excludes the 7th day Sabbath the fourth commandment from this text.

 

[sparkman]

Your argument does not stand, as the annual sabbaths, which are the same thing as feasts or festivals, are already mentioned in the text. If your explanation was valid, we have annual sabbaths or feasts or festivals mentioned twice. Festivals and annual Sabbaths and feasts are the same thing. Any Armstrongite could tell you that.

In addition, sabbaton is not mentioned in regards to the festivals at all in the New Testament. In the other 59 places it is used in the New Testament, it plainly refers to the weekly Sabbath.

Here is the wording of Colossians 2:16 in this section:

...a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath....

The pattern goes from annual to monthly to weekly.

The Old Testament uses the same progression, or the reverse progression, in a number of verses in reference to the annual festivals, new moons and Sabbaths..in other words, when the annual festivals (feasts), new moons, and weekly Sabbath are mentioned in these verses, they are ordered in either ascending or descending order:

I Chron 23:31 and whenever burnt offerings were offered to the LORD on Sabbaths, new moons, and feast days, according to the number required of them, regularly before the LORD.

II Chron 2:4 Behold, I am about to build a house for the name of the LORD my God and dedicate it to him for the burning of incense of sweet spices before him, and for the regular arrangement of the showbread, and for burnt offerings morning and evening, on the Sabbaths and the new moons and the appointed feasts of the LORD our God, as ordained forever for Israel.

II Chron 8:12-13 Then Solomon offered up burnt offerings to the Lord on the altar of the Lord that he had built before the vestibule, [SUP]13 [/SUP]as the duty of each day required, offering according to the commandment of Moses for the Sabbaths, the new moons, and the three annual feasts—the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks, and the Feast of Booths.

2 Chronicles 31:3 [SUP]3 [/SUP]The contribution of the king from his own possessions was for the burnt offerings: the burnt offerings of morning and evening, and the burnt offerings for the Sabbaths, the new moons, and the appointed feasts, as it is written in the Law of the Lord.

Ezek 45:17 [SUP]17 [/SUP]It shall be the prince's duty to furnish the burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the new moons, and the Sabbaths, all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel: he shall provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings, and peace offerings, to make atonement on behalf of the house of Israel.

So, these Scriptures show that the progression of annual, monthly, and weekly is used in many places in Scripture, in either direction...from annual, monthly, to weekly or from weekly, monthly, and annual.

Paul used the progression of annual, monthly, weekly in Colossians 2:16-17. In addition, if you are claiming that Sabbath refers to annual Sabbaths, you are in error because they are already mentioned underneath the word "festival".

The paradigm that prevents you from understanding that this verse covers the weekly Sabbath is the idea that the Sabbath is mentioned in the Ten Commandments, that the Ten Commandments is separate from the Old Covenant, and is still valid for New Covenant Christians. This is consistent with the understanding of many Protestants, whether they are Saturday Sabbathkeepers or not, but this assumption is invalid. The Old Covenant is one unified law.

I have presented points regarding this on a separate thread that I just posted:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/119971-seventh-day-sabbath-new-covenant.html

I have held the same paradigm in the past and have rejected it based on on the reasoning that I presented on this thread.

Let me ask you an additional question..does your church teach that the rest of Christianity, including evangelical Protestants who do not keep the Saturday Sabbath, is following a counterfeit gospel, and that they are basically daughters of the great prostitute mentioned in Revelation 17? That's what the Armstrongite cult that I belonged to taught.

By the way, the Sabbath pointed back to creation but it also pointed forward to the redemption which is available to those who place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, and the spiritual "rest" from our works. This is the teaching of Hebrews 4:9-10. Sabbathkeepers try to use these verses to prove that a literal observance of the Sabbbath is required for New Covenant believers, but the word for Sabbath-rest is Sabbatismos, which is a unique word that is different that the normal word for Sabbath sabbaton. Those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ have entered into this spiritual rest. This is the better "sabbath" that is under the New Covenant. It is not a physical rest like Sabbathkeepers claim; it is a spiritual rest.

Hebrews 4:9-10 [SUP]9 [/SUP]So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, [SUP]10 [/SUP]for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

Matt 11:28-30 [SUP]28 [/SUP]Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. [SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

Here is my view of Hebrews 4 in more detail:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/115326-hebrews-4-9-real-sabbath-jesus.html

You seem like a pretty smart guy but you are caught up in the same paradigms that I was as a Sabbathkeeper. The SDAs are not as bad as Armstrongites because they don't reject the Christianity of others, but they still hold them at a level of contempt due to their indoctrination.

One thing that I appreciate is that the SDAs realize that Colossians 2:16-17 uses language that is unmistakeable regarding the applicability of the things that are mentioned, but their reasoning regarding the Sabbath reference is severely flawed, as the mention of festivals in the same verses causes their explanations to be fatally flawed.

context is important I would hope you would agree that context says much on any wording bible or not.

That there are different Sabbaths in the old covenant is none contestable. Yet they all say Sabbath. so context in every case will tell us which Sabbaths are being spoken of.

You have two basic options.

option 1, Sabbaths that are part of the sacrificial feasts

Option 2, the 7th day Sabbath of the 10 commandments

Now context of your cited texts:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Shadow of "things to come" notice the things Paul has mentioned before including the Sabbath is contextually things Paul said are shadows of things to come. In other words things that when they were given had not Yet come but once Christ had come they meet what they pointed forward to.

So lets ask a very simple logical question.

Which of the two options pointed forward, 1 or both or none. There are the only options and examining scripture will easily tell us so that we don't put our own spin on it.

As for Sabbaths that were part of sacrificial feasts what Does Scripture say?

Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

So note that the sacrifices only pointed to Jesus the true sacrifice. logically all that was part of them would then find its fulfillment in Christ thus they indeed were a shadow that pointed forward to Jesus.

So at least one points forward and thus fits the Colossians context.

SO lets examine then the commandment Sabbath in the 10 commandments.

Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

according to the commandment itself it points not forward to something that would come but backwards to something that is done already. Jesus is creator thus Lord of The Sabbath.

So clearly the 7th day Sabbath according to the 10 commandments does not fit the context. It was not for things to come but for a reality that had been well established before that time.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

notice the introduction to the very book you are using establishes these truths. Jesus brought redemption by His blood not animal sacrifices and sacrificial ordinances which include the Sabbaths that were part of them.

But Jesus is still the creator an immutable unchangeable Fact.

So main point, Context clearly excludes the 7th day Sabbath the fourth commandment from this text.

 

[sparkman]

By the way if EGW's visions are true, I'm going to make one big grease fire in Gehenna being a former Sabbathkeeper

I know what she says about us guys.

 

[gotime]

Your argument does not stand, as the annual sabbaths, which are the same thing as feasts or festivals, are already mentioned in the text. If your explanation was valid, we have annual sabbaths or feasts or festivals mentioned twice. Festivals and annual Sabbaths and feasts are the same thing. Any Armstrongite could tell you that.

In addition, sabbaton is not mentioned in regards to the festivals at all in the New Testament. In the other 59 places it is used in the New Testament, it plainly refers to the weekly Sabbath.

Here is the wording of Colossians 2:16 in this section:

...a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath....

The pattern goes from annual to monthly to weekly.

The Old Testament uses the same progression, or the reverse progression, in a number of verses in reference to the annual festivals, new moons and Sabbaths..in other words, when the annual festivals (feasts), new moons, and weekly Sabbath are mentioned in these verses, they are ordered in either ascending or descending order:

I Chron 23:31 and whenever burnt offerings were offered to the LORD on Sabbaths, new moons, and feast days, according to the number required of them, regularly before the LORD.

II Chron 2:4 Behold, I am about to build a house for the name of the LORD my God and dedicate it to him for the burning of incense of sweet spices before him, and for the regular arrangement of the showbread, and for burnt offerings morning and evening, on the Sabbaths and the new moons and the appointed feasts of the LORD our God, as ordained forever for Israel.

II Chron 8:12-13 Then Solomon offered up burnt offerings to the Lord on the altar of the Lord that he had built before the vestibule, [SUP]13 [/SUP]as the duty of each day required, offering according to the commandment of Moses for the Sabbaths, the new moons, and the three annual feasts—the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks, and the Feast of Booths.

2 Chronicles 31:3 [SUP]3 [/SUP]The contribution of the king from his own possessions was for the burnt offerings: the burnt offerings of morning and evening, and the burnt offerings for the Sabbaths, the new moons, and the appointed feasts, as it is written in the Law of the Lord.

Ezek 45:17 [SUP]17 [/SUP]It shall be the prince's duty to furnish the burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the new moons, and the Sabbaths, all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel: he shall provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings, and peace offerings, to make atonement on behalf of the house of Israel.

So, these Scriptures show that the progression of annual, monthly, and weekly is used in many places in Scripture, in either direction...from annual, monthly, to weekly or from weekly, monthly, and annual.

Paul used the progression of annual, monthly, weekly in Colossians 2:16-17. In addition, if you are claiming that Sabbath refers to annual Sabbaths, you are in error because they are already mentioned underneath the word "festival".

The paradigm that prevents you from understanding that this verse covers the weekly Sabbath is the idea that the Sabbath is mentioned in the Ten Commandments, that the Ten Commandments is separate from the Old Covenant, and is still valid for New Covenant Christians. This is consistent with the understanding of many Protestants, whether they are Saturday Sabbathkeepers or not, but this assumption is invalid. The Old Covenant is one unified law.

I have presented points regarding this on a separate thread that I just posted:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/119971-seventh-day-sabbath-new-covenant.html

I have held the same paradigm in the past and have rejected it based on on the reasoning that I presented on this thread.

Let me ask you an additional question..does your church teach that the rest of Christianity, including evangelical Protestants who do not keep the Saturday Sabbath, is following a counterfeit gospel, and that they are basically daughters of the great prostitute mentioned in Revelation 17? That's what the Armstrongite cult that I belonged to taught.

By the way, the Sabbath pointed back to creation but it also pointed forward to the redemption which is available to those who place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, and the spiritual "rest" from our works. This is the teaching of Hebrews 4:9-10. Sabbathkeepers try to use these verses to prove that a literal observance of the Sabbbath is required for New Covenant believers, but the word for Sabbath-rest is Sabbatismos, which is a unique word that is different that the normal word for Sabbath sabbaton. Those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ have entered into this spiritual rest. This is the better "sabbath" that is under the New Covenant. It is not a physical rest like Sabbathkeepers claim; it is a spiritual rest.

Hebrews 4:9-10 [SUP]9 [/SUP]So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, [SUP]10 [/SUP]for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

Matt 11:28-30 [SUP]28 [/SUP]Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. [SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

Here is my view of Hebrews 4 in more detail:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/115326-hebrews-4-9-real-sabbath-jesus.html

You seem like a pretty smart guy but you are caught up in the same paradigms that I was as a Sabbathkeeper. The SDAs are not as bad as Armstrongites because they don't reject the Christianity of others, but they still hold them at a level of contempt due to their indoctrination.

One thing that I appreciate is that the SDAs realize that Colossians 2:16-17 uses language that is unmistakeable regarding the applicability of the things that are mentioned, but their reasoning regarding the Sabbath reference is severely flawed, as the mention of festivals in the same verses causes their explanations to be fatally flawed.

The Sabbaths were part of the feast not one and the same. you can glean this easily even from the new testament. The whole thing was a feast/festival. Feast Sabbaths were part of the festival. in fact its that very point that adds to the fact. take another look at the text:

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

everything there is connected to festivals/ meat drink new moon and Sabbaths were all part of festivals. The let no man judge you is in respect to what came before:

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

the forgiveness of sins which is found on the cross. The 7th day Sabbath points back as shown, the feast Sabbaths pointed to the cross. the very context again upholds my proposed view. The 7th day Sabbath points out that Jesus is creator. He Still is.

Isaiah also prophecies that once the salvation of God has come in Christ then the Gentiles will also keep the Sabbath. The Sanctuary also teaches that the same 10 commandments are in heaven.

 

[just-me]

The Sabbaths were part of the feast not one and the same. you can glean this easily even from the new testament. The whole thing was a feast/festival. Feast Sabbaths were part of the festival. in fact its that very point that adds to the fact. take another look at the text:

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

everything there is connected to festivals/ meat drink new moon and Sabbaths were all part of festivals. The let no man judge you is in respect to what came before:

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

the forgiveness of sins which is found on the cross. The 7th day Sabbath points back as shown, the feast Sabbaths pointed to the cross. the very context again upholds my proposed view. The 7th day Sabbath points out that Jesus is creator. He Still is.

Isaiah also prophecies that once the salvation of God has come in Christ then the Gentiles will also keep the Sabbath. The Sanctuary also teaches that the same 10 commandments are in heaven.

Observing the Sabbaths that envelope the feasts are important for Christian growth in the faith and grace of God, when observing the revealed spiritual aspects that are detailed in them. It takes the indwelling Holy Spirit to understand them as God originally intended. It is vain to observe them with the carnal mind. Three Feasts of the Pentateuch

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:13

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:23-24

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? John 5:45-47

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Romans 8:6-7

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31

But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: Acts 24:14

Rejecting the law proves a carnal mind that is behind the rejection as that mind claims to have the indwelling Holy Spirit. This is a contradiction to say the least. The canal mind has no alternative but to reject because it is incapable of understanding it in Spirit and in Truth.

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Matthew 7:16-20

 

[sparkman]

The Sabbaths were part of the feast not one and the same. you can glean this easily even from the new testament. The whole thing was a feast/festival. Feast Sabbaths were part of the festival. in fact its that very point that adds to the fact. take another look at the text:

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

everything there is connected to festivals/ meat drink new moon and Sabbaths were all part of festivals. The let no man judge you is in respect to what came before:

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

the forgiveness of sins which is found on the cross. The 7th day Sabbath points back as shown, the feast Sabbaths pointed to the cross. the very context again upholds my proposed view. The 7th day Sabbath points out that Jesus is creator. He Still is.

Isaiah also prophecies that once the salvation of God has come in Christ then the Gentiles will also keep the Sabbath. The Sanctuary also teaches that the same 10 commandments are in heaven.

1. The Prophets were used to call Israel back to the terms of the Old Covenant. They prophecied a return to obedience to
this covenant. They also prophecied a return to animal sacrifices, annual festivals such as the Feast of Tabernacles, and
the Levitical priesthood. If you assert that Saturday Sabbath observance is required for New Covenant Christians, then
to be consistent you must make the same assertion for annual festivals such as the Feast of Tabernacles, animal sacrifices,
and the Levitical priesthood. My position is that the prophets spoke through the spectacles or worldview that they
possessed, which was in the context of the Old Covenant. The essential message was a prophecy relating to a return
to a relationship with God, not that the specifics would continue to be observed. However, if you want to take that angle,
be consistent and teach that animal sacrifices, the Levitical priesthood, and annual festivals are in place now too.

2. Your assertion regarding the festivals and the Sabbaths of Colossians 2;16-17 doesn't hold water. The Armstrongite view
is more consistent than what you are presenting. If your view is correct, then Paul specified one type of thing twice. I
explained from the pattern above why the explanation is not good. Food and drink offerings do not relate to the festivals.
If I understand you correctly, you are trying to use an argument that Hebrew Roots people try to use, for the purpose
of proving that the festivals still apply. It's talking about food and drink offerings.

3. We still have the remaining issue of why SDAs say that sabbaton refers to the weekly Sabbath the other 59 times it is
used in relation to Sabbaths in the NT, and why this is the one exception. SDAs are being inconsistent on this point and
the explanations they use are poor.

The Sabbath pointed forward to our redemption in Christ. We enter into a spiritual rest by faith when we place our confidence in Christ and his perfect sacrifice. It even pointed back to Eden in this way, as it is a restoration of the unfettered relationship that mankind had before the Fall. However, it also points forward to the redemption that believers have in Christ. Read the book of Hebrews. One group that Paul was addressing were Jews who had rejected Judaism and were exposed to the gospel message, but hadn't stepped into the rest of faith that is ours through Jesus Christ. That is why Hebrews 4:11 says "[SUP]11 [/SUP]Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.". Those individuals hadn't made the final step of placing their faith in Jesus Christ, and he was urging them to do so. He did so throughout the entire book. I suspect SDAs would claim that this is urging Sabbath observance, but it is not...it was urging them to take the plunge and to accept Christ and his perfect sacrifice on their behalf. The way that Sabbathkeepers, including myself formerly, view this chapter ignores the very point of the message. We have a "better Sabbath" than the one under the Old Covenant, which is the rest of faith that is provided by accepting Jesus and his perfect sacrifice on our behalf.

You didn't answer my question in regards to SDA teaching regarding Revelation 17. Do they teach that the rest of Christianity is following a counterfeit gospel? If they are consistent with Armstrongite teaching, they believe that all others, including evangelical Protestants, are following a counterfeit gospel that is demonic in nature basically. Armstrongites accuse them of being "so-called believers" and "false believers" following a "counterfeit gospel". My understanding is that some SDAs hurl the same sorts of judgments toward non-Sabbathkeepers. I know that's the position I held, and have repented of. I see better fruits in my Evangelical Free church than I saw in Sabbathkeeping circles. I suspect that many Sabbathkeepers still hold a lot of contempt for non Sabbathkeepers whether they will voice them or not.

 

[sparkman]

It seems like you are stating that "food and drink" is not a reference to food and drink offerings, but I maintain that it is.

Numbers 28:24 In the same way you shall offer daily, for seven days, the food of a food offering, with a pleasing aroma to the LORD. It shall be offered besides the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.

The Sabbaths were part of the feast not one and the same. you can glean this easily even from the new testament. The whole thing was a feast/festival. Feast Sabbaths were part of the festival. in fact its that very point that adds to the fact. take another look at the text:

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

everything there is connected to festivals/ meat drink new moon and Sabbaths were all part of festivals. The let no man judge you is in respect to what came before:

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

the forgiveness of sins which is found on the cross. The 7th day Sabbath points back as shown, the feast Sabbaths pointed to the cross. the very context again upholds my proposed view. The 7th day Sabbath points out that Jesus is creator. He Still is.

Isaiah also prophecies that once the salvation of God has come in Christ then the Gentiles will also keep the Sabbath. The Sanctuary also teaches that the same 10 commandments are in heaven.

 

[KohenMatt]

How does obedience effect your salvation?

How does it affect my salvation?

It doesn't.

 

[just-me]

How does it affect my salvation?

It doesn't.

We are making up our own rules and forsaking God's ordinances and laws. We watch the world crumble before our very eyes, and continue to live without knowing we had a substantial part to play in all this mess because of purposeful rejection of a major part of God's perfect word, saying it is no longer relevant under the New Covenant.

We refuse to see what caused Israel to fail, exempting ourselves in our own ignorance, and are essentially doing the very same thing as Israel did in Biblical history. There is no salvation in the law, but that doesn't mean it needs to be rejected. If we love God we should strive to obey His every word because of the gift of salvation. Not by works, but by the works of faith. We live by His every word. (Matthew 4:4)

Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. 1 Corinthians 15:34

 

[gotime]

1. The Prophets were used to call Israel back to the terms of the Old Covenant. They prophecied a return to obedience to
this covenant. They also prophecied a return to animal sacrifices, annual festivals such as the Feast of Tabernacles, and
the Levitical priesthood. If you assert that Saturday Sabbath observance is required for New Covenant Christians, then
to be consistent you must make the same assertion for annual festivals such as the Feast of Tabernacles, animal sacrifices,
and the Levitical priesthood. My position is that the prophets spoke through the spectacles or worldview that they
possessed, which was in the context of the Old Covenant. The essential message was a prophecy relating to a return
to a relationship with God, not that the specifics would continue to be observed. However, if you want to take that angle,
be consistent and teach that animal sacrifices, the Levitical priesthood, and annual festivals are in place now too.

2. Your assertion regarding the festivals and the Sabbaths of Colossians 2;16-17 doesn't hold water. The Armstrongite view
is more consistent than what you are presenting. If your view is correct, then Paul specified one type of thing twice. I
explained from the pattern above why the explanation is not good. Food and drink offerings do not relate to the festivals.
If I understand you correctly, you are trying to use an argument that Hebrew Roots people try to use, for the purpose
of proving that the festivals still apply. It's talking about food and drink offerings.

3. We still have the remaining issue of why SDAs say that sabbaton refers to the weekly Sabbath the other 59 times it is
used in relation to Sabbaths in the NT, and why this is the one exception. SDAs are being inconsistent on this point and
the explanations they use are poor.

The Sabbath pointed forward to our redemption in Christ. We enter into a spiritual rest by faith when we place our confidence in Christ and his perfect sacrifice. It even pointed back to Eden in this way, as it is a restoration of the unfettered relationship that mankind had before the Fall. However, it also points forward to the redemption that believers have in Christ. Read the book of Hebrews. One group that Paul was addressing were Jews who had rejected Judaism and were exposed to the gospel message, but hadn't stepped into the rest of faith that is ours through Jesus Christ. That is why Hebrews 4:11 says "[SUP]11 [/SUP]Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.". Those individuals hadn't made the final step of placing their faith in Jesus Christ, and he was urging them to do so. He did so throughout the entire book. I suspect SDAs would claim that this is urging Sabbath observance, but it is not...it was urging them to take the plunge and to accept Christ and his perfect sacrifice on their behalf. The way that Sabbathkeepers, including myself formerly, view this chapter ignores the very point of the message. We have a "better Sabbath" than the one under the Old Covenant, which is the rest of faith that is provided by accepting Jesus and his perfect sacrifice on our behalf.

You didn't answer my question in regards to SDA teaching regarding Revelation 17. Do they teach that the rest of Christianity is following a counterfeit gospel? If they are consistent with Armstrongite teaching, they believe that all others, including evangelical Protestants, are following a counterfeit gospel that is demonic in nature basically. Armstrongites accuse them of being "so-called believers" and "false believers" following a "counterfeit gospel". My understanding is that some SDAs hurl the same sorts of judgments toward non-Sabbathkeepers. I know that's the position I held, and have repented of. I see better fruits in my Evangelical Free church than I saw in Sabbathkeeping circles. I suspect that many Sabbathkeepers still hold a lot of contempt for non Sabbathkeepers whether they will voice them or not.

In answer to your point 1.

you said ". If you assert that Saturday Sabbath observance is required for New Covenant Christians, then
to be consistent you must make the same assertion for annual festivals such as the Feast of Tabernacles, animal sacrifices,"

That is not true, not sure how you think one equals the other. the new testament and the Old both make it clear that sacrifices would not continue forever. But Concerning the 7th day Sabbath there is no such stipulation. Do you actually know what prophecy I am referring to? Because the prophecy is in regards to the Gentiles coming in which Paul in the New testament spends much time on. Saying one equals the other is not well founded logic. I am not trying to say anything about you personally please don't take it that way. So no you are in error to suggest that consistency would dictate to allow sacrifices also. That is totally inconsistent with what Scripture teaches.

point 2,

Interesting point as I have said He does not simply mention them twice. all of those things mentioned are found in connection with feasts. new moons food and drink and Sabbaths are all part of feast but they are not the feasts themselves. in fact you mentioned numbers 28:24 in another post. So let me correct you on an assumption. I never said they were not offerings you have assumed that. Now the very verse you have sited actually makes my point. if you read the context you will find that they are indeed food and drink offerings that are connected to the feast of Passover Just as I have been saying all along. They themselves are not the feast but they are part of the feast. hope that clears things up a little. Oh and yes what I have said in no way proves that the festivals still need to be kept. Scripture teaches the very opposite that they were met in Christ.

Point 3,

This is not hard I have already answered this one in the original post. Context tells you which is being referred to. the context in Colossians most clearly as demonstrated refers to Sabbaths that are in conjunction with the feasts. Its not a matter of randomly picking and choosing its a matter of sound biblical context. The only reason you take issue with it is because of your view of the 7th day Sabbath. but the context clearly shows that the 7th day Sabbath is not being referred to in Colossians on many levels. its not a shadow pointing forward though you try to make it one. But the Sabbaths which were in connection with the festivals did indeed point to rest in Christ. They are the Sabbaths that teach what you misapply to the 7th day Sabbath. This is the problem you connect the rest in Christ to the commandment that clearly says that it points back to creation. instead of realizing that it is the feast Sabbaths that were designed to do this. They are the once that are connected to the festivals which point forward to Jesus giving us rest by his sacrifice.

It seems like simple logic and context to me not to mention biblical. If there are two different types of Sabbaths mentioned. one points back to creation and one points to rest through a sacrifice then Paul speaks of Sabbaths that are a shadow of things to come in connection with Jesus paying the price for our sins. Its a no brainier which one is being referred to.

Feast Sabbaths=Rest in the sacrifice of Jesus, shadow of things to come
commandment Sabbath=Jesus is our creator, memorial of a past reality.

as far as your points on Hebrews 4 that is a massive study on its own and so is revelation 17. not enough time to go into that right now. blessings.