For then shall be great tribulation

doulos · Mar 13, 2013

John also told us exactly who/what that antichrist was in 1John4:3 when he said “this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come”

1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Isn't the verse you are quoting talking about the leopard bear lion beast?

Rev 13:1- 7 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Didn't we learn in the book of Daniel that in the figurative language of prophecy a beast is a kingdom? Wasn't Daniels lion beast Babylon, the bear beast Medo-Persia and the leopard beast Greece?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
God/Word tells us beasts are kingdoms and history proves God's word true then wouldn't a beast also be a kingdom in Revelation? Can you show me where God/Word changed the definition of a beast from a kingdom to "THE antichrist"?

Anonimous · Mar 13, 2013

CDavid said:

Actually the raptureb teaching has been around longer than darby. St. Jerome referred to it in the 400's.

The English word “rapture” is derived from the Latin word “raptus,” but it is also related to the Latin word “rapiemur,” which is the word St. Jerome used for “caught up” (KJV) when he translated 1 Thessalonians 4:17 in the Latin Vulgate Bible. While the use of the word “rapture” in casual conversation has changed in meaning since St. Jerome’s time, its original definition and application to Jesus’ return for His Church has remained.

Anonimous · Mar 13, 2013

Elizabeth619 said:

God does not give us everything we ask for. He knows what we need, and he will give to us according to HIS will. Not ours. Asking for "revelations" is not something God will give you because you ask.

1 John 5:14-15 [SUP]14 [/SUP]This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.[SUP]15 [/SUP]And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

If you cannot understand what was written 2000 years ago why do you think you can understand something else? If you had understanding you would realize that God doesn't work in the way you speak of.
.
We are told not to buy in to conspiracy theories. Believing them can lead one to rebel against authority in an unrighteous way due to paranoia. We are to submit to authority. Not rebel because we THINK it is a "sign of the end"
2 Corinthians 10:5 (KJV) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivityevery thought to the obedience of Christ

(NIV) Isaiah 8:12 "Do not call conspiracy everything that these people call conspiracy; do not fear what they fear, and do not dread it.

Then open your bible. There you will find all the truth you need.

The rapture you talk about was a theory thought up by a man named John Darby in the 1800s. This belief was never taught before that. It has been disproven many times, but people choose not to believe it. If you're visions/dreams or whatever you call them are from God then why are you saying "what if"?
People have tried to explain to you and many others about the current conspiracy theories going around. The ones you mention that you feel is part of biblical prophecy yet you refuse to accept what it they say. You claim you don't understand, and when people that do have understanding try to show you what things mean you reject it. Is it because it isn't what you want to hear?
Not even Jesus gave his apostles the exact date of the end. He even said only The Father knows when the day of the Lord will be. This tells us not to ASK for these answers.
Remember Harold Camping? A man who predicted the rapture for May 21, 2011? He misled many. He is a false prophet. He even admitted he was wrong, and asked for forgiveness. He learned the hard way. A woman who believed camping was so scared of the rapture she was arrested for slitting her 14 year old daughters throat in fear they would be left behind.
Predicting such events, and even believing them is a very dangerous thing. No one will know a prophecy is fulfilled until it happens. You cannot predict dates. You cannot predict what WILL happen. The last book of the bible is Revelation. It marks the end of the NT gospels. It is THE ONE AND ONLY REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST. Everything all Christians need to know is in the scriptures. Read them. Understand the,. Don't ask for more when you cannot even understand the other.

St. Jerome referred to the rapture back in the 400's.

The English word “rapture” is derived from the Latin word “raptus,” but it is also related to the Latin word “rapiemur,” which is the word St. Jerome used for “caught up” (KJV) when he translated 1 Thessalonians 4:17 in the Latin Vulgate Bible. While the use of the word “rapture” in casual conversation has changed in meaning since St. Jerome’s time, its original definition and application to Jesus’ return for His Church has remained.

peterT · Mar 13, 2013

doulos said:

I think you forgot something

Daniel 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Therapon · Mar 13, 2013

jb said:

LOL, I didn't write any such book and believe you not too tightly wrapped for thinking i did. Try "Islam in the End Times," a free download from www.ellisskolfield.com if you really want to know what I teach, which I doubt.

CDavid · Mar 13, 2013

We are chasing a lot of rabbets here; debating rapture, antichrist, and what not. I've gotten caught up in it myself.

The question for the purpose of debate in this posting is; Because for the most part we all accept that there will be a great tribulation, what is the prudent thing for Christians to do now?
Should we not set aside previsions to help the elect, who will be persecuted by antichrist during the tribulation.
Should we use some Bin Franklin logic; "Prepare for the worst and hope for the best"

Therapon · Mar 13, 2013

Blain said:

Unlikely as it may sound, it might be the answer is the Lord gave me, but from your post you won't like it much. <smile>

Therapon · Mar 13, 2013

CDavid said:

The really prudent thing would be to check with Scripture the possibility that your seven-year tribulation doctrine might be wrong. The almost universal acceptance that view does not mean that it is true.

Earlmayknowornot · Mar 13, 2013

CDavid said:

Preach the gospel and witness to everyone we can and most of the time the best sermon is our testimony. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. and again, How can they hear without a preacher. That's what we should do.

weakness · Mar 13, 2013

doulos said:

Rev13:1...and I saw a beast rise out of the sea, having seven heads, and ten horns,and upon his horns ten crowns vs. 3....And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded unto death: and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.....Rev 17:7....I will tell you the mystery of the woman and the beast that carries her ,which has seven heads and ten horns.....8. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit and go into perdition,and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder.9...The seven heads are seven mountains....vs10 and there are seven kings(apart from the seven mountains)....five are fallen ,one is, and one is yet to come,and when he comes he must continue a short space. vs.11 And the beast that was and is not, even he is the eighth,and is of the seven ( the beast is the eighth king) (and is one of the seven)vs 16and the ten horns which you saw on the beast will give their power unto the beast........15...and the sea from which the beast,or the eighth king, rises out of peoples multitudes,nations and tongues. Dan7: 7 ....and behold a fourth beast....and it had ten horns....vs 8 and there came up from among them a little horn....in this horn were eyes like a man and a mouth speaking great things..vs11...I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed and given to the flame vs 13 one like the son of God came with clouds......vs14 and his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom vs 12 concerning the other three beast there dominion is taken away ,but there lives were prolonged for a season.

weakness · Mar 13, 2013

CDavid said:

We are chasing a lot of rabbets here; debating rapture, antichrist, and what not. I've gotten caught up in it myself.

The question for the purpose of debate in this posting is; Because for the most part we all accept that there will be a great tribulation, what is the prudent thing for Christians to do now?
Should we not set aside previsions to help the elect, who will be persecuted by antichrist during the tribulation.
Should we use some Bin Franklin logic; "Prepare for the worst and hope for the best"

I use to but don't now ,but do what ever God tells you to do!

Therapon · Mar 13, 2013

Earlmayknowornot said:

In every generation, the Lord gave the right message to lead people to Himself through His Son Jesus. In the 15th century, John Huss, "the Bible should be the only source for doctrine." Later Martin Luther, "the just should live by faith." In France, the brethren should be able to share both the bread and the cup. In Switzerland, John Calvin with the sovereignty of God. In England, the Puritans that Christians should live a righteous life, all doctrines that we accept today. Later with John Knox, "go ye into all the world and preach the gospel."

Those are the seminal view that led to the China Inland Mission, the South American Inland Mission, the African Inland Mission, in fact, every mission effort of the 19th and 20th centuries. And why am I telling you all this? Because the Lord has opennd His Word once again. The prophetic books are now understandable for the first time in history and they are the evangelical message for today, but the church is so bound by traditional and lethargy that it cannot hear that message.

You really want to lead people to the Lord? Then learn the Lord's message that can do so and it isn't the dispensational pablum so popular with the Western Church.

doulos · Mar 13, 2013

peterT said:

peterT you aren’t the first I have met that uses that verse to promote the futurist doctrine that Rev13’s beast is “the antichrist” Unfortunately it just doesn’t really work and here is why.

The verses prior to Dan7:17 describe in great detail the lion bear and leopard beasts all of which are kingdoms. The lion was Babylon, the bear Medo-Persia and the leopard Greece. So if these verses tell us the first three beasts are kingdoms and 2 verses after the verse you use, Scripture says; “Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others,….” Then in verse 23 it says “The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth…..” So it is apparent from the context that the 4 kings in Dan7:17 represent 4 kingdoms.

Not all translations of the Scriptures translate Dan7:17 to say kings either. These translators left the confusion out:
(CEV) Daniel 7:17 "The four beasts are four earthly kingdoms."
(TEV) Daniel 7:17 He said, "These four huge beasts are four empires which will arise on earth."
Tanach 17. [He said] "These huge beasts, which are four, are four kingdoms, which will arise from the earth." http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=16490

peterT how do kings arise from the earth? Kingdoms arise from the earth, not men. Men are born, they come from their mother’s womb, they don’t arise out of the earth.

While it is possible a king could be an antichrist there is nothing in Scripture that says antichrist is a king. Nor is there any verses that state a king is "the antichrist". Yes, God/Word is unchanging and not once does Scripture say antichrist is a king, nor does it say a beast is antichrist. Can you show us where God/Word says a beast is antichrist or a king is the antichrist? No you can’t, the best you can do is provide verses you interpret to mean that, based on the guess work theology promoted by futurists.

"The folly of interpreters has been to foretell times and things by this prophecy [Revelation], as if God designed to make them prophets. By this rashness they have not only exposed themselves, but brought the prophecy also into contempt. The design of God was much otherwise. He gave this and the prophecies of the Old Testament, not to gratify men's curiosities by enabling them to foreknow things, but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and his own providence, not the interpreters', be then manifested thereby to the world. For the event of things predicted many ages before will then be a convincing argument that the world is governed by Providence." - Sir Isaac Newton

“Those things of God which are now dark and obscure will hereafter be made clear, and easy to be understood. Truth is the daughter of time. Scripture prophecies will be expounded by the accomplishment of them; therefore they are given, and for that expectation they are reserved. Therefore they are told us before, that, when they do come to pass, we may believe”. - Matthew Henry

I think we are better served to use sound hermeneutic principles to interpret Scripture. I'll leave the guess work theology to those who try to use prophecy to be prophets.

As you are led friend, as you are led!

doulos · Mar 13, 2013

weakness said:

Rev13:1...and I saw a beast rise out of the sea, having seven heads, and ten horns,and upon his horns ten crowns vs. 3....And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded unto death: and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.....Rev 17:7....I will tell you the mystery of the woman and the beast that carries her ,which has seven heads and ten horns.....8. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit and go into perdition,and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder.9...The seven heads are seven mountains....vs10 and there are seven kings(apart from the seven mountains)....five are fallen ,one is, and one is yet to come,and when he comes he must continue a short space. vs.11 And the beast that was and is not, even he is the eighth,and is of the seven ( the beast is the eighth king) (and is one of the seven)vs 16and the ten horns which you saw on the beast will give their power unto the beast........15...and the sea from which the beast,or the eighth king, rises out of peoples multitudes,nations and tongues. Dan7: 7 ....and behold a fourth beast....and it had ten horns....vs 8 and there came up from among them a little horn....in this horn were eyes like a man and a mouth speaking great things..vs11...I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed and given to the flame vs 13 one like the son of God came with clouds......vs14 and his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom vs 12 concerning the other three beast there dominion is taken away ,but there lives were prolonged for a season.

See my post to peterT above unless of course you prefer to believe "the antichrist" is a seven headed man.

CDavid · Mar 13, 2013

Earlmayknowornot said:

There will be need for food, water, shelter. All these things need more than prayer. The prophecies are telling us to get proactive. Just like when the plagues came upon Egypt, God gave His people a heads up. They drew water from the wells before the water turned to blood. It does little good if we see a man starving, if we pray for him, tell him to be well, but do not feed him. Or if he is freezing cold, and we pray; brother be warm, but we give no coat.
I doubt I will still be around for the tribulation, but I want to have good fruit to show the master. I want our Lord to be pleased that I would show love enough to set aside provisions for His elect. Prayer and preaching is a rather Laissez-faire Christianity, when it comes to necessities for survival.

mardabo · Mar 13, 2013

Therapon said:

nathan3 said:

Your comments have the hallmark as coming from a believer in Preterism which denies that any future prophecies concerning Jesus' second coming are yet to be fulfilled, having been completed in AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem. That is a false view. I bet you know what is being referred to as the anti-Christ.

I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things (Daniel 7:7,8).

I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time (3 1/2 years). But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me: but I kept the matter in my heart (Daniel 7:26-28).

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.…For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie (2 Thessalonians 2:3,4,7-11).

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:3-8).

And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth, by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is six hundred threescore and six (Revelation 13:11-18).

There you have it. A world wide Satanic empire controlled by a man or men (the beast and false prophet) in which for three and a half years a Satan possessed man who claims to be God is worshipped by the pagan world as he persecutes and kills God's people. After that for another three and one half years, God pours judgment out on that wicked system and destroys it shortly after he gathers His bride the church to Him. Then comes the Millennial reign of Christ on earth followed by the Great White Throne Judgment of the unsaved.

weakness · Mar 13, 2013

doulos said:

I didn't say the anti-christ is a seven headed man!!! May be I should also include the dragon with seven heads and ten horns , but with seven crowns not ten. and maybe also the image of the beast also with seven head and ten horns. Dan11:36-37 and magnify himself above every god.....nor regard any god for he shall magnify him self above all ( the King of the north?)You don't have the vaguest clue what I believe. What pride to not only think you know so much , but to tell me what I believe !!! Can you read minds too?? I don't think I could walk with the weight that a head of your size would generate.

doulos · Mar 14, 2013

mardabo said:

Therapon

The preterist accuse you of being a dispy futurist and the futurists accuse you of being a preterist. I wonder if anybody actually takes the time to read and understand what you actually espouse. If it wasn't so sad I'd be ROFLMHO

doulos · Mar 14, 2013

weakness said:

Have I misunderstood you? Aren't you promoting the view that the beast of Rev13:1-7 is a man called "the antichrist"? Doesn't the beast have seven heads? So if I understand you correctly wouldn't that make it a seven headed man?

Include any verse you want there is not a single verse in Scripture that says a beast is the antichrist but we do have verses proven by history that demonstrates beasts are kingdoms. Wasn't Daniels lion beast Babylon? Wasn't the bear Medo-Persia? Wasn't the leopard Greece? Can you show me where in Scripture that definition was changed?

mardabo · Mar 14, 2013

doulos, Therapon asked for scriptures: Satan is going to set up a world kingdom under Antichrist cannot be found anywhere in the Bible! If I have missed it somehow, show me chapter and verse.

I provided them.

For then shall be great tribulation

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