For those why deny the Deity of Jesus Christ.

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Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,025
394
83
#21
we probably all have views of things in the scriptures that ultimately imply He is not God, if we thought them all the way through, even though we believe He is.

for example how we comprehend His quoting the Psalm, 'Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani' - - how can we think He is the one being forsaken if we believe He is God? how can we picture Him as hopeless and powerless and scared at that moment, and still think simultaneously He is the Almighty? but we do.

we're not so smart, us humans.
That quote from Psalms was to fulfill proohecies.

Isaiah 53 NIV
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,025
394
83
#22
To be a Christian you must believe in the diety of Jesus. So only Jews, atheists, and other religions reject him. So why would anyone like them come to this site?

Answer is they just want to push their lies about God and sow dissension here. Wolves in sheep's clothing!! As Jesus said you will know them by their fruit. Here that means their posts.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
8,299
2,257
113
#23
What denomination teaches that? Denying the Deity of the Christ?
Not denominations but cults such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Christadelphians, Unitarians, Unity Church of Christ, Christian Science, Unification Church (Korean), etc. It would appear that many Messianic Jews also deny the deity of Christ. Of course, unbelieving Jews and Muslims also fall into this category.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
22,929
4,941
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#24
Psalm 22 is a prophetic Messianic Psalm, detailing the specifics of how we would reject and put God in the flesh to death. Jesus repeatedly stated that He said and did only that which God gave Him to say and to do, and all He said and did was for our benefit. I see His anguished cry as foretelling also the horror of those who shall perish at the end of this age, as a direct result of their ultimate refusal to accept Him as Lord and King.
so in quoting the Psalm is He speaking of Himself as being forsaken by God? of people, Israel in particular, being forsaken or thinking they are forsaken?

whatever our view here, if we believe He is divine it has to make sense that the divine is saying this. many people will say, He was not divine at this moment, that He stopped being God, at least for that moment. but does this agree with "Jesus Christ the same yesterday today and forever"? if He is God is He ever not God?

i don't believe this is a simple thing. i don't believe it can be explained in an hour or in 12 pages of text.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
26,191
4,618
113
#25
so in quoting the Psalm is He speaking of Himself as being forsaken by God? of people, Israel in particular, being forsaken or thinking they are forsaken?

whatever our view here, if we believe He is divine it has to make sense that the divine is saying this. many people will say, He was not divine at this moment, that He stopped being God, at least for that moment. but does this agree with "Jesus Christ the same yesterday today and forever"? if He is God is He ever not God?

i don't believe this is a simple thing. i don't believe it can be explained in an hour or in 12 pages of text.
That is true, and some things retain much mystery. Many Scriptures can have multiple layers of meaning and application. Some say that in quoting Psalm 22, as the sins of the world fell upon Jesus, He experienced separation from God. I would say that if He did, it was in His humanity only, same as those who shall be separated from God forever after following the resurrection and judgment of all at the end of this age. I can only be thankful that God allowed me to live long enough to outlive my rebellion against Him :)
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,294
149
63
#26
we probably all have views of things in the scriptures that ultimately imply He is not God, if we thought them all the way through, even though we believe He is.

for example how we comprehend His quoting the Psalm, 'Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani' - - how can we think He is the one being forsaken if we believe He is God? how can we picture Him as hopeless and powerless and scared at that moment, and still think simultaneously He is the Almighty? but we do.

we're not so smart, us humans.
Actually posthuman, I don't really believe Jesus Christ was forsaken by His Father on that cross. The story I learned well over 50 years ago was that the Father did forsake His Son because God cannot look upon sin.

I changed my view over 30 years ago based on Psalm 22, spedifically verse 1. If you read the Psalm you have David being hunted down by Saul. Many "bulls" have surrounded him and want to devour him as a roaring lion. Psalm 22:12-14. Also at vs11, "Be not far from me, for trouble is near." David's concern is that he feels he is forsaken by God vs19-21 but he is not.

At vs22-24 he praises God and at vs24, "For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, NEITHER HAS HE HIDDEN HIS FACE FROM HIM." Then at vs15 to the end of the chapter David continues to praise God.

Now, Jesus knew beforehand that He would be forsaken, but not by His Father. John 16:32, "Behold an hour is coming, and has already come, for you to be scattered, each to his own home, AND TO LEAVE ME ALONE; AND YET I AM NOT ALONE, BECAUSE THE FATHER IS WITH ME." Also at 2 Corinthians 5:19, "namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself etc.

When I was in Vietnam in January of 1968 the Tet offensive started and believe me it was "horrible." I to felt forsaken and was praying, "Lord where are You?" I'm sure many of us have been in situations where we feel like God has abandoned us but in reality He was always there just like He was with David and His Son Jesus Christ. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
#27
Since some of you deny the Deity of Jesus Christ which also means He did not preexist His incarnation as a man I have a question?
Since it is written in Matthew 16:20 that the Son of God ordered his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ then who is really denying the deity of Christ than those of you who are telling us that Jesus is the Christ.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,294
149
63
#28
Since it is written in Matthew 16:20 that the Son of God ordered his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ then who is really denying the deity of Christ than those of you who are telling us that Jesus is the Christ.
Suppose you tell me why Jesus said not to tell no man that He was the Christ/Messiah? I know why, do you? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
#29
Jehovah's Witness, Christadelphians, Mormons (Church of Latter Day Saints), Unitarians, and Christian Scientists, among others, deny the Deity of Christ while calling themselves Christian :(
I am shocked. Another poster said Messianic Jews deny also. Now that is truly a surprise. How do they deny the deity of the Messiah? The status of Messiah and divine origin I'd think would be inextricable.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
26,191
4,618
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#30
Since it is written in Matthew 16:20 that the Son of God ordered his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ then who is really denying the deity of Christ than those of you who are telling us that Jesus is the Christ.
Tell no man, but Jesus told a woman :):):) Oh, and a woman was the first sent to testify of His resurrection, also :D
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
26,191
4,618
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#31
I am shocked. Another poster said Messianic Jews deny also. Now that is truly a surprise. How do they deny the deity of the Messiah? The status of Messiah and divine origin I'd think would be inextricable.
Some Messianic Jews accept Jesus as Lord God, but regular Jews (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist) do not. There are a few regulars here who deny the Deity of Christ, flying under the radar with their persistent arguments against such a stance, though it is against the rules to do so, apparently. :censored: Messianic Judaism itself is a bit of a mish-mash. Here is a Christian teacher I admire, whose outreach is first to the Jew: http://www.cjfm.org/about-us/who-we-are/
 
#32
Some Messianic Jews accept Jesus as Lord God, but regular Jews (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist) do not. There are a few regulars here who deny the Deity of Christ, flying under the radar with their persistent arguments against such a stance, though it is against the rules to do so, apparently. :censored: Messianic Judaism itself is a bit of a mish-mash. Here is a Christian teacher I admire, whose outreach is first to the Jew: http://www.cjfm.org/about-us/who-we-are/
Thank you . :)
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
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#33
Tell no man, but Jesus told a woman :):):) Oh, and a woman was the first to testify of His resurrection, also :D
"Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he." John 4:26

"....for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. " Mark 13:11"​
" If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true." John 5:31​
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
26,191
4,618
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#34
"Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he." John 4:26

"....for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. " Mark 13:11"​
" If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true." John 5:31​
What exactly are you trying to say?

You deny the Deity of Jesus, don't you?
 
Apr 1, 2018
69
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#36
I'm at a loss for words that there is not one person on these forums who denies the deity of Jesus Christ will not address the question I ask in this thread? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
They probably dont wanna get banned
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
675
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#37
He experienced separation from God. I would say that if He did, it was in His humanity only,
I think scripture supports separation from his Father both physically and spiritually Mag - the sins laid on him did the spiritual separation as it did with Adam in the day that he ate of the fruit, Adam took 930 years to die physically.

The death that Christ came to reverse was spiritual "death" due to sin,, the same death that Paul suffered under the law:

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;

We know that Paul did not die physically "when the commandment came" - the only conclusion is that Paul is speaking to sin/spiritual "death"/separation from God's spirit/presence.

Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
26,191
4,618
113
#38
I think scripture supports separation from his Father both physically and spiritually Mag - the sins laid on him did the spiritual separation as it did with Adam in the day that he ate of the fruit, Adam took 930 years to die physically.

The death that Christ came to reverse was spiritual "death" due to sin,, the same death that Paul suffered under the law:

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;

We know that Paul did not die physically "when the commandment came" - the only conclusion is that Paul is speaking to sin/spiritual "death"/separation from God's spirit/presence.

Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Good points, Locutus… but... oh oh, a but :whistle: But, if Jesus was separated spiritually from God, did He retain His Deity? It would seem that to be spiritually separated from God, He would lose His Deity, and then, where would the power for Him to raise Himself come from? He said He was going to raise Himself... so obviously, He retained His Deity. Walk me through this... please :) Jesus did not sin, but only became sin for us. Sin was not alive in Jesus...
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
675
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#39
Good points, Locutus… but... oh oh, a but :whistle: But, if Jesus was separated spiritually from God, did He retain His Deity? It would seem that to be spiritually separated from God, He would lose His Deity, and then, where would the power for Him to raise Himself come from? He said He was going to raise Himself... so obviously, He retained His Deity. Walk me through this... please :) Jesus did not sin, but only became sin for us. Sin was not alive in Jesus...
I don't think it follows for Jesus to lose his deity in the separation Mag, he is deity and the Father is deity. It was just a temporary loss of "communion" so to speak.

When he cried out "why has thou forsaken me" the scripture was fulfilled.

Adam Clarke's commentary:

My God! My God! why hast thou forsaken me! - These words are quoted by our Lord from Psalm 22:1; they are of very great importance, and should be carefully considered.

Some suppose "that the divinity had now departed from Christ, and that his human nature was left unsupported to bear the punishment due to men for their sins." But this is by no means to be admitted, as it would deprive his sacrifice of its infinite merit, and consequently leave the sin of the world without an atonement. Take deity away from any redeeming act of Christ, and redemption is ruined.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/acc/matthew-27.html


Exactly - "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, " 2 Cor 5:21
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
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#40
Suppose you tell me why Jesus said not to tell no man that He was the Christ/Messiah?
Suppose I tell you the truth, would you buy it?

I know why, do you? :eek:
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? James 2:14