Forgiveness

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CharliRenee

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#41
No. Discernment and judgement are not the same things.

They were arguing about a mis quotation from Jimmy Swaggart' s son posted by Message of the cross and didn't notice two verses were improperly mixed together. A silly mix up, please forgive.
Ohhhh thanks for helping me understand.
 

Deuteronomy

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#45
Forgiveness is something we do for our sake. That we free ourselves of that baggage of past hurts that do not serve a life moving toward a healthy future.
Hi Whispered, that idea is certainly a popular one throughout Christendom these days, but I've been wondering if it's truly Biblical :unsure: Actually, I've been considering Biblical/Godly "forgiveness" recently, what it is, what purpose(s) it has, it's scope, etc., so this is a very interesting and timely topic for me :)

As I've considered what the Bible has to say, it seems to me that God's interest does not lie in "forgiveness" by itself. Rather, forgiveness seems like the starting point (by the injured party) towards God's actual objective for us, which is "reconciliation."

This is also why I'm considering the idea that the injured party actually shirks his/her Christian duty and acts in an unloving manner toward their neighbor/brother/sister whenever they choose to forgive them willy-nilly, IOW, apart from true repentance.

Here are two statements, one a commandment by Jesus, the other an admonishment. Both concern forgiveness from God, from others, and/or for others.

Luke 17
3 If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
4 And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.
1 John 1
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Except for the two very special cases in the Bible of 1. Jesus in the midst of dying on the Cross, and 2. Stephen in the midst of dying by stoning, do you know of any other Biblical accounts, OT or New, where forgiveness is offered to a person who has not first repented and asked for it :unsure:

While we certainly need to be ~ready~ to forgive others, and it is our Christian duty to do so whenever we are ~asked~, is "forgiving" someone silently/behind their back (for our sake/for the purpose of 'feeling better about ourselves'), what we Christians should actually be doing?

Thank you for your thoughts about this :)(I think I have a long way yet to go in my studies about this topic).

~Deut
p.s. - One last thing, we are never to ~hate~ anyone else, even those who have harmed us. In fact, we are to treat others just like we expect/hope to be treated by them (no matter how badly we are actually being treated by them in the moment .. Matthew 7:12). Could that be what is really behind this new/popular thought/trend of silent forgiveness apart from repentance, because the Holy Spirit reminds us that we need to follow the Biblical mandate to love and not hate others?

Even if that's true however, the Biblical commands in passages like Luke 17:3-4 remain for us, do they not? Thanks again!

Matthew 7
12 However you want people to treat you, so treat them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
 

Whispered

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Aug 17, 2019
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#46
Hi Whispered, that idea is certainly a popular one throughout Christendom these days, but I've been wondering if it's truly Biblical :unsure: Actually, I've been considering Biblical/Godly "forgiveness" recently, what it is, what purpose(s) it has, it's scope, etc., so this is a very interesting and timely topic for me :)

As I've considered what the Bible has to say, it seems to me that God's interest does not lie in "forgiveness" by itself. Rather, forgiveness seems like the starting point (by the injured party) towards God's actual objective for us, which is "reconciliation."

This is also why I'm considering the idea that the injured party actually shirks his/her Christian duty and acts in an unloving manner toward their neighbor/brother/sister whenever they choose to forgive them willy-nilly, IOW, apart from true repentance.

Here are two statements, one a commandment by Jesus, the other an admonishment. Both concern forgiveness from God, from others, and/or for others.

Luke 17
3 If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
4 And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.
1 John 1
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Except for the two very special cases in the Bible of 1. Jesus in the midst of dying on the Cross, and 2. Stephen in the midst of dying by stoning, do you know of any other Biblical accounts, OT or New, where forgiveness is offered to a person who has not first repented and asked for it :unsure:

While we certainly need to be ~ready~ to forgive others, and it is our Christian duty to do so whenever we are ~asked~, is "forgiving" someone silently/behind their back (for our sake/for the purpose of 'feeling better about ourselves'), what we Christians should actually be doing?

Thank you for your thoughts about this :)(I think I have a long way yet to go in my studies about this topic).

~Deut
p.s. - One last thing, we are never to ~hate~ anyone else, even those who have harmed us. In fact, we are to treat others just like we expect/hope to be treated by them (no matter how badly we are actually being treated by them in the moment .. Matthew 7:12). Could that be what is really behind this new/popular thought/trend of silent forgiveness apart from repentance, because the Holy Spirit reminds us that we need to follow the Biblical mandate to love and not hate others?

Even if that's true however, the Biblical commands in passages like Luke 17:3-4 remain for us, do they not? Thanks again!

Matthew 7
12 However you want people to treat you, so treat them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
A wonderful post brother. :) Study is a life long process isn't it? We will forever find new messages and wisdom in God's words to us I think.

I would add this as I believe it supports my prior observation as to Forgiveness being for our sake.
The Book of Matthew chapter 6 verses 14 & 15 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
 

Deuteronomy

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Jun 11, 2018
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#47
...14 If you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Hello again sister, while I believe you are correct about this being a central passage about forgiveness, as well the importance of forgiveness to the forgiver, does it ever stipulate that we are required to forgive those who have never repented? I can certainly see how the passage could be read with that understanding, particularly because the thought of not being forgiven* by God is more than just concerning, but can we afford to get it wrong from the other side either/from what we know of God's intention for us as Christians where others are concerned (in the rest of the Bible)?

*(I agree with you that this passage, with its very serious warning about the eternity to come from God when forgiveness is not offered to others on this side of eternity, is probably where this new approach to forgiveness originated)

The more I read the Bible, the more I see the importance to God of our being His peacemakers .. Matthew 5:9, and of His intention that peace/harmony and righteousness abound in (or be restored to) all of our relationships, both with Him, and with each other as well.

Finally, if speaking the truth in love, for both the temporal and (especially) for the eternal benefit of others is vital to the Christian life/vital to the very reason for our continued existence in this world (and I believe that it is), then how can we choose to forgive others for ~our~ sakes and not for their sakes too (even when they are the offending party who has sinned against us and caused us harm)?

Jesus said, "if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him". I don't believe that I'm guilty of disobeying the latter command since becoming a Christian 33 years ago, but I am, to my shame, guilty of disobeying the former command, and that more than once :(

It is a painful fact that those who have been injured by another are most often the ones who begin the healing process (by confronting/rebuking the offending party) because that's what God calls us to do. In my case, I'm sure that just wanting the pain to go away as quickly as possible and move on is a big part of the reason behind my choice to be a, "people pleaser", rather than the, "peacemaker", that God calls me to be! But the more I think about it, the less loving the "people pleaser" in me seems, and the more necessary and loving choosing to be a 'peacemaker' instead seems to be.

I'm still tossing all of this around in my head (obviously), so I hope my somewhat rambling thoughts are not too hard to understand? Any additional thoughts that you may have about this topic, specifically or generally, would be greatly appreciated (y)(y)

Thanks again :)

~Deut
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
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#48
Are discernment and judgement the same things?

Can we discern something is not good for us or our loved ones without judging them?

I clearly need to get more savy on this case, because that video to me seemed so beautiful, so Christ centered. I do not understand why there is a debate here. We all agree we should forgive others and ourselves, right?

Obviously, I need to understand this case more. I am missing pertinent info.
Discernent is the ability to understand and sort through god and worn teachings as well as identify good and evil spirits. It is aift of the Holy spirit. Judgment is decision making ability and often is applied to us trying to make decisions that should be left to God alone. Saying thing like all Socialists, Catholics and non Jewish Semites, are going to hell would be a mistake in judgment or Judgmentalism.
 

Whispered

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#49
Hello again sister, while I believe you are correct about this being a central passage about forgiveness, as well the importance of forgiveness to the forgiver, does it ever stipulate that we are required to forgive those who have never repented? I can certainly see how the passage could be read with that understanding, particularly because the thought of not being forgiven* by God is more than just concerning, but can we afford to get it wrong from the other side either/from what we know of God's intention for us as Christians where others are concerned (in the rest of the Bible)?

*(I agree with you that this passage, with its very serious warning about the eternity to come from God when forgiveness is not offered to others on this side of eternity, is probably where this new approach to forgiveness originated)

The more I read the Bible, the more I see the importance to God of our being His peacemakers .. Matthew 5:9, and of His intention that peace/harmony and righteousness abound in (or be restored to) all of our relationships, both with Him, and with each other as well.

Finally, if speaking the truth in love, for both the temporal and (especially) for the eternal benefit of others is vital to the Christian life/vital to the very reason for our continued existence in this world (and I believe that it is), then how can we choose to forgive others for ~our~ sakes and not for their sakes too (even when they are the offending party who has sinned against us and caused us harm)?

Jesus said, "if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him". I don't believe that I'm guilty of disobeying the latter command since becoming a Christian 33 years ago, but I am, to my shame, guilty of disobeying the former command, and that more than once :(

It is a painful fact that those who have been injured by another are most often the ones who begin the healing process (by confronting/rebuking the offending party) because that's what God calls us to do. In my case, I'm sure that just wanting the pain to go away as quickly as possible and move on is a big part of the reason behind my choice to be a, "people pleaser", rather than the, "peacemaker", that God calls me to be! But the more I think about it, the less loving the "people pleaser" in me seems, and the more necessary and loving choosing to be a 'peacemaker' instead seems to be.

I'm still tossing all of this around in my head (obviously), so I hope my somewhat rambling thoughts are not too hard to understand? Any additional thoughts that you may have about this topic, specifically or generally, would be greatly appreciated (y)(y)

Thanks again :)

~Deut
And thank you brother. :)

I don't think the passage I shared, excerpted actually, details whether the forgiveness is to be afforded as an exclusive. As in, does the passage stipulate we are required to forgive who have never repented. Perhaps the full chapter 6 of the Book of Matthew will help us to glean the answer?


1 Take heed that ye do not your righteousness before men, to be seen of them: else ye have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.

2 When therefore thou doest alms, sound not a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have received their reward. 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 that thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret shall recompense thee.
5 And when ye pray, ye shall not be as the hypocrites: for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have received their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thine inner chamber, and having shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret, and thy Father who seeth in secret shall recompense thee. 7 And in praying use not vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not therefore like unto them: for [a]your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. 9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. 11 Give us this day [b]our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from [c]the evil one. [d] 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may be seen of men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have received their reward. 17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thy head, and wash thy face; 18 that thou be not seen of men to fast, but of thy Father who is in secret: and thy Father, who seeth in secret, shall recompense thee.
19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth consume, and where thieves do not [e]break through nor steal: 21 for where thy treasure is, there will thy heart be also. 22 The lamp of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is the darkness! 24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. 25 Therefore I say unto you, Be not anxious for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than the food, and the body than the raiment? 26 Behold the birds of the heaven, that they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; and your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are not ye of much more value than they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit unto [f]the measure of his life? 28 And why are ye anxious concerning raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: 29 yet I say unto you, that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 But if God doth so clothe the grass of the field, which to-day is, and to-morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? 31 Be not therefore anxious, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32 For after all these things do the Gentiles seek; for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 But seek ye first his kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34 Be not therefore anxious for the morrow: for the morrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.


Maybe we can look at the answer as, the passage tells us if we do not forgive those who sin against us, as saying just that without the condition that our forgiveness extend only to those who have repented, we realize that in a sense this wisdom coincides with God's forgiveness of us.
When we forgive someone, be they a sister or brother or someone who is not so, and how would we know if they were saved when they trespassed against us anyway, unless they were someone whom we knew was also in Christ, I think it does serve to example Christ's compassion and forgiveness of our trespasses against Him in that we are then able to forgive easily enough those who trespass against us.

And if we happen to be forgiving someone who is not in Christ, perhaps that act of compassion for them, as well as ourselves that we not carry the burden of a grudge against that one, may resonate within them. That they perhaps may feel the work of Christ in us through that act of mercy and seek Him out due to our example as one's who are in Him.

Just a thought.
 
T

tasha66

Guest
#50
Forgiveness is an interesting concept, & one that I struggle with. There are some things in life I will never forgive that have been done to me. And when I say forgive, I mean FORGIVE in my heart, so that my heart is whole again and cleansed of all hatred. You can say out loud you forgive someone or make an outward show, but true forgiveness from within is something I'm going to have to leave to God/Jesus. Time does heal to some extent, and dims the memory, but there are some things I feel you just don't forget or gloss over. I pray about it all, but I haven't been given, or come up with an answer yet.
I work in areas where we care for the worse sinners - I'm not getting into a debate about what constitutes 'sin' in this post either - and I am no Bible expert (am still learning). These persons are paedophiles, child murderers, gang rapists, etc - you can use your imagination. In the main, these people are recidivists of the worse kind. It is alright to just say 'forgive' and 'Jesus forgives'. However, what bothers me is that if these people say they have changed and we forgive them, then they offend again, do we just keep forgiving them repeatedly? They may continually re-offend till they die, a rapist might rape/murder multiple women until he's caught (Ted Bundy comes to mind when typing this). And our justice system is certainly not perfect, but there has to be accountability along the way for what you do & say.
There was a man on the news yesterday who was already a father. He followed a wee 7-8 year old girl around a shopping centre, drove her out to a forest I think, & 'assaulted' her. Details re the assault were not released. After he was caught, the perpetrator said he 'was sorry he took her innocence' so it sounds like this poor wee thing was raped by him. How on earth do you forgive someone for something like that? There was also another case where a young woman was gang raped, held captive, tortured & she stated herself at the parole hearing that she will never be able to have children. Her whole life has been affected & changed by a few people's thoughtless acts (to say the least). All her dreams were shattered, she never made it in her career choice, her innocence was gone (I presume she meant she was a virgin), & she now has major trust issues.
How do you forgive someone who has done that? You certainly would not let these types of people walk around in society.
I could go on re many different stories, but you get the picture.
What do you think and what does the Bible state re these types of situations? If there are any scriptures pertinent to these questions, please enlighten me. Your own views would be interesting to read as well.
 

calibob

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#51
Forgiveness is an interesting concept, & one that I struggle with. There are some things in life I will never forgive that have been done to me. And when I say forgive, I mean FORGIVE in my heart, so that my heart is whole again and cleansed of all hatred. You can say out loud you forgive someone or make an outward show, but true forgiveness from within is something I'm going to have to leave to God/Jesus. Time does heal to some extent, and dims the memory, but there are some things I feel you just don't forget or gloss over. I pray about it all, but I haven't been given, or come up with an answer yet.
I work in areas where we care for the worse sinners - I'm not getting into a debate about what constitutes 'sin' in this post either - and I am no Bible expert (am still learning). These persons are paedophiles, child murderers, gang rapists, etc - you can use your imagination. In the main, these people are recidivists of the worse kind. It is alright to just say 'forgive' and 'Jesus forgives'. However, what bothers me is that if these people say they have changed and we forgive them, then they offend again, do we just keep forgiving them repeatedly? They may continually re-offend till they die, a rapist might rape/murder multiple women until he's caught (Ted Bundy comes to mind when typing this). And our justice system is certainly not perfect, but there has to be accountability along the way for what you do & say.
There was a man on the news yesterday who was already a father. He followed a wee 7-8 year old girl around a shopping centre, drove her out to a forest I think, & 'assaulted' her. Details re the assault were not released. After he was caught, the perpetrator said he 'was sorry he took her innocence' so it sounds like this poor wee thing was raped by him. How on earth do you forgive someone for something like that? There was also another case where a young woman was gang raped, held captive, tortured & she stated herself at the parole hearing that she will never be able to have children. Her whole life has been affected & changed by a few people's thoughtless acts (to say the least). All her dreams were shattered, she never made it in her career choice, her innocence was gone (I presume she meant she was a virgin), & she now has major trust issues.
How do you forgive someone who has done that? You certainly would not let these types of people walk around in society.
I could go on re many different stories, but you get the picture.
What do you think and what does the Bible state re these types of situations? If there are any scriptures pertinent to these questions, please enlighten me. Your own views would be interesting to read as well.
I hope you don't mind if I start at the bottom. >
1570855956848.png 1570856345105.png
Even when forgiven we often have to pay in the flesh for what we did in the flesh. There's no question about it as one criminal on a cross told another. The lord forgave him but he still had to pay with his life. The forgiveness part comes
after the first death. Everybody that Jesus forgave 2000 years ago and everybody that the Lord healed then is dead now.

Life and death are temporary. Forgiveness or damnation is permanent.​
 
T

tasha66

Guest
#52
@calibob:
'I hope you don't mind if I start at the bottom. >
Even when forgiven we often have to pay in the flesh for what we did in the flesh. There's no question about it as one criminal on a cross told another. The lord forgave him but he still had to pay with his life. The forgiveness part comes after the first death. Everybody that Jesus forgave 2000 years ago and everybody that the Lord healed then is dead now. Life and death are temporary. Forgiveness or damnation is permanent.'

What does the above actually MEAN though? 'The Lord forgave him but he still had to pay with his life'. Is that because this criminal was already condemned to die? Does that mean that this person isn't resurrected? And what exactly is 'the first death?" I'm talking about basically here on earth - how do we forgive these types of people?
Didn't Jesus say 'a life for a life?' Shouldn't these wicked people be condemned to die by man for what they have done, then face the judgement of the Lord?
If forgiveness is permanant, and someone trespasses against us again, does that original forgiveness still stand?
I certainly wouldn't want the types of people I've described above around me and wandering around in society, even if other people say they have forgiven them.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
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#53
What does the above actually MEAN though? 'The Lord forgave him but he still had to pay with his life'. Is that because this criminal was already condemned to die? Does that mean that this person isn't resurrected? And what exactly is 'the first death?" I'm talking about basically here on earth - how do we forgive these types of people?
Didn't Jesus say 'a life for a life?' Shouldn't these wicked people be condemned to die by man for what they have done, then face the judgement of the Lord?
If forgiveness is permanant, and someone trespasses against us again, does that original forgiveness still stand?
I certainly wouldn't want the types of people I've described above around me and wandering around in society, even if other people say they have forgiven them.
Paragraph 1; I means he didn't go to hell. Because of his defending the Lord, humility and admission of sins he was saved from hades (Hell) He will be resurrected. When the Lord returns. The first death is that of the body in other verses it's called sleep. Saints that have died are often called asleep in the Lord. They are awaiting resurrection too. Only Enoch, Elijah and Jesus went directly to heaven. The rest are awaiting his return.

We forgive then by not holding their sins against them within our hearts and trust God to make the final decision. Anger and vengace within our hearts is poison to our spirit. Let go, let god deal with them on his terms.

If they are judged by law to die. Let them. God will deal with them on his terms on judgement day.

If they were not honestly sincere God will know it. They can't fake him. I say forgive gross offender from the heart but let the court judgement stand while on earth. It's an old con game. "I've become a christian. Please let me out. I'll never do it again."

Nope. See Galatian's 6:7 If they've sewn destruction they should expect to get reaped.
 
T

tasha66

Guest
#54
Paragraph 1; I means he didn't go to hell. Because of his defending the Lord, humility and admission of sins he was saved from hades (Hell) He will be resurrected. When the Lord returns. The first death is that of the body in other verses it's called sleep. Saints that have died are often called asleep in the Lord. They are awaiting resurrection too. Only Enoch, Elijah and Jesus went directly to heaven. The rest are awaiting his return.

We forgive then by not holding their sins against them within our hearts and trust God to make the final decision. Anger and vengace within our hearts is poison to our spirit. Let go, let god deal with them on his terms.

If they are judged by law to die. Let them. God will deal with them on his terms on judgement day.

If they were not honestly sincere God will know it. They can't fake him. I say forgive gross offender from the heart but let the court judgement stand while on earth. It's an old con game. "I've become a christian. Please let me out. I'll never do it again."

Nope. See Galatian's 6:7 If they've sewn destruction they should expect to get reaped.
Thanks that clears things up a wee bit. But I cannot forgive some things in my heart. I guess God knows that about us anyway.
I think if you forgive someone for a terrible sin against you, the other person then feels that they don't have to be accountable for what they have done. They think 'Yes I've gotten away with this!' That is what bothers me.
And people that forgive others for terrible sins, sometimes do with pressure put on them, or in the heat of the moment, maybe in front of others, to look better in the eyes of other people. But I doubt they really forgive in their heart.
As you say, let the authorities deal with these wicked people, and put all our cares on God.
I guess that is all I can do anyway.
 

calibob

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#55
We forgive then by not holding their sins against them within our hearts and trust God to make the final decision. Anger and vengace grudges within our hearts is poison to our spirit. Let go, let god deal with them on his terms.
Edit in blue.
 

calibob

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#56
I worked in an ex-con rehab center and was fired for saying; "People with aids that continue having casual sex with others, have Antisocial personality disorder. They are a menace to society and should be locked up." I was fired for being a homophobic. Being gay with aids was easier to accept than celibacy. The society has gotten very twisted.
 
T

tasha66

Guest
#57
I worked in an ex-con rehab center and was fired for saying; "People with aids that continue having casual sex with others, have Antisocial personality disorder. They are a menace to society and should be locked up." I was fired for being a homophobic. Being gay with aids was easier to accept than celibacy. The society has gotten very twisted.
I've cared for many people with AIDS / HIV. TBH, if I was overheard saying that about a patient, I'd be told not to come back. It's my job to care for them not to judge them, however I feel in private, and since I usually work in specialised Mental Health areas, we have to be careful what we say to anybody. All the people I've encountered that identify as gay have told me that they were born that way - it's part of their make up. I wonder about that sometimes, but some of them I do believe. I don't agree they should be locked up (unless it was a joke?); we can only continue to educate the people who are not being responsible and the general public re this illness/afflication. I think some people like to 'rock the boat' & be different for shock value, or just simply because they can. Some are young, suffer from depression & don't care what they get, or just don't think. Also, people with AIDS / HIV get alot of sympathy & care, so that makes it almost an 'attractive' disease. AIDS etc is like diabetes now - it's common & treatable, so we certainly don't bat an eye at work when someone is admitted with this illness.
I don't know about them having APD - that is a whole nother conversation methinks.
Celibacy is not popular in any way whatsoever nowadays. We see promiscuity especially on TV, advertising on freeways, etc, with little or no discussion, or demonstration of the various and sometimes very serious consequences. It's all about losing your virginity as fast as you can to anyone, without even thinking about it. This attitude also astounds and shocks me, because I got teased so much when I was younger for being a virgin when all my friends had lost theirs. I was considered 'odd' & 'weird' because I didn't want to fall into bed with someone. Many times I remember sitting in the libary at school on my tea/lunch break, having no friends, because I refused to conform to what others thought I should be doing. I didn't even colour my hair or smoke - shock, horror!! Some of my friends lost their virginity when they were 13 years old - they almost saw it as a proud moment in their life, and some bragged about it, especially the guys. I think that kind of pressure & mentality is really sad. They don't even get time to be kids, and get sucked into this adult world they don't understand in any way whatsoever. It also colours their mentality in other parts of their life. I cared for a French woman who had had something like 30 abortions - abortion was her method of contraception in France. She didn't see it as wrong or evil. She was told she'd damaged her body so much she very probably wouldn't be able to have children naturally. Of course she was upset but insisted that it wasn't the constant abortions that had damaged her body. The doctor refused to give her another abortion as it wasn't safe, and she ranted & raved, threatening to sue us all.
I felt sorry for her, because she couldn't see celibacy or even using an alternative method of contraception as an alternative. Very sad.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
6,805
4,534
113
65
lawton ok
#58
I've cared for many people with AIDS / HIV. TBH, if I was overheard saying that about a patient, I'd be told not to come back. It's my job to care for them not to judge them, however I feel in private, and since I usually work in specialised Mental Health areas, we have to be careful what we say to anybody. All the people I've encountered that identify as gay have told me that they were born that way - it's part of their make up. I wonder about that sometimes, but some of them I do believe. I don't agree they should be locked up (unless it was a joke?); we can only continue to educate the people who are not being responsible and the general public re this illness/afflication. I think some people like to 'rock the boat' & be different for shock value, or just simply because they can. Some are young, suffer from depression & don't care what they get, or just don't think. Also, people with AIDS / HIV get alot of sympathy & care, so that makes it almost an 'attractive' disease. AIDS etc is like diabetes now - it's common & treatable, so we certainly don't bat an eye at work when someone is admitted with this illness.
I don't know about them having APD - that is a whole nother conversation methinks.
Celibacy is not popular in any way whatsoever nowadays. We see promiscuity especially on TV, advertising on freeways, etc, with little or no discussion, or demonstration of the various and sometimes very serious consequences. It's all about losing your virginity as fast as you can to anyone, without even thinking about it. This attitude also astounds and shocks me, because I got teased so much when I was younger for being a virgin when all my friends had lost theirs. I was considered 'odd' & 'weird' because I didn't want to fall into bed with someone. Many times I remember sitting in the libary at school on my tea/lunch break, having no friends, because I refused to conform to what others thought I should be doing. I didn't even colour my hair or smoke - shock, horror!! Some of my friends lost their virginity when they were 13 years old - they almost saw it as a proud moment in their life, and some bragged about it, especially the guys. I think that kind of pressure & mentality is really sad. They don't even get time to be kids, and get sucked into this adult world they don't understand in any way whatsoever. It also colours their mentality in other parts of their life. I cared for a French woman who had had something like 30 abortions - abortion was her method of contraception in France. She didn't see it as wrong or evil. She was told she'd damaged her body so much she very probably wouldn't be able to have children naturally. Of course she was upset but insisted that it wasn't the constant abortions that had damaged her body. The doctor refused to give her another abortion as it wasn't safe, and she ranted & raved, threatening to sue us all.
I felt sorry for her, because she couldn't see celibacy or even using an alternative method of contraception as an alternative. Very sad.
It's way past my bed time but I feel I must address 1 thing. I was specifically talking people who knew they were infected before any treatment beyond interferon was developed When AIDS was a death sentence with no cure in sight. The kind of people that willfully had sex with strangers not concerned if they spread the disease or not. I think public safety must come before sexual freedom. To me it's a matter of christian ethics. To willfully and carelessly spread a then fatal disease with out care or remorse.

I didn't care if they were gay or straight. to me it was attempted murder. Sex is less important than public safety. And it was another counselor that snitched on me from a private conversation. Good night.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
27,815
6,292
113
#59
I know, it's always wrong to tell somebody that what they did is wrong.
My bad.
I have been told that sarcasm is the lowest form of humor.
Forgiveness is an interesting concept, & one that I struggle with. There are some things in life I will never forgive that have been done to me. And when I say forgive, I mean FORGIVE in my heart, so that my heart is whole again and cleansed of all hatred. You can say out loud you forgive someone or make an outward show, but true forgiveness from within is something I'm going to have to leave to God/Jesus. Time does heal to some extent, and dims the memory, but there are some things I feel you just don't forget or gloss over. I pray about it all, but I haven't been given, or come up with an answer yet.
I work in areas where we care for the worse sinners - I'm not getting into a debate about what constitutes 'sin' in this post either - and I am no Bible expert (am still learning). These persons are paedophiles, child murderers, gang rapists, etc - you can use your imagination. In the main, these people are recidivists of the worse kind. It is alright to just say 'forgive' and 'Jesus forgives'. However, what bothers me is that if these people say they have changed and we forgive them, then they offend again, do we just keep forgiving them repeatedly? They may continually re-offend till they die, a rapist might rape/murder multiple women until he's caught (Ted Bundy comes to mind when typing this). And our justice system is certainly not perfect, but there has to be accountability along the way for what you do & say.
There was a man on the news yesterday who was already a father. He followed a wee 7-8 year old girl around a shopping centre, drove her out to a forest I think, & 'assaulted' her. Details re the assault were not released. After he was caught, the perpetrator said he 'was sorry he took her innocence' so it sounds like this poor wee thing was raped by him. How on earth do you forgive someone for something like that? There was also another case where a young woman was gang raped, held captive, tortured & she stated herself at the parole hearing that she will never be able to have children. Her whole life has been affected & changed by a few people's thoughtless acts (to say the least). All her dreams were shattered, she never made it in her career choice, her innocence was gone (I presume she meant she was a virgin), & she now has major trust issues.
How do you forgive someone who has done that? You certainly would not let these types of people walk around in society.
I could go on re many different stories, but you get the picture.
What do you think and what does the Bible state re these types of situations? If there are any scriptures pertinent to these questions, please enlighten me. Your own views would be interesting to read as well.
Hello Tasha. I will respond to this question you asked concerning whether there are any Scriptures dealing with child offenders. This is from Matthew chapter 18:

At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. And he said:
“Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.

“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!"
 

Locoponydirtman

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2018
1,601
1,011
113
Texas
#60
I have been told that sarcasm is the lowest form of humor.
Why continue to engage me on this?
I disagree with your method, you disagree with my disagreement there of, there is nothing left to say about it. Thank you good-bye.