Former pentecostal

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mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
1,987
372
83
#82
Just my two bob's worth if I may. Being autistic I tend to deal with reality, not speculation. One of my biggest occupations is reading. I must read 50 books a year, mostly Christian with a few novels thrown in. Whilst I love to study theology having been to Bible
College, My main interest is books that tell the real story of when the rubber hits the road, meaning people who have experienced a miracle in their lives.

When I read that people believe God has divested himself of power, I have to laugh for the simple reason all over the world God is making himself evident by his supernatural power in healing and deliverance.

A couple of years ago I started reading books about the supernatural way God was reaching out to Muslims and showing them that he was the one true God and as a result, they embraced him and ditched Allah. Bearing in mind to do that often meant death so one does not countenance a move like that if it is fake.

And then there was my own experience in praying for a young man who had an acquired brain injury and his parents were told he would never walk again. Three weeks after I and two others laid hands on him and prayed for his healing, he walked out of the hospital well.

Not to mention a mother in Africa who brought her dead son to two Christian nurses in a primitive hospital who were not given to praying for dead babies. The mother said I have been to the witch doctor but he can do nothing for my son. If your God can bring him back to life I will follow him all my life. The two nurses in simple faith laid hands on the dead baby, prayed and he came back to life.

If God has given away his power and these things do not happen anymore, can anyone advise me where the source of all these miracles is?
 
Jul 14, 2019
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#83
I'm not saying I had demons but Paul had a messenger of Satan to buffet him. And obviously if we have to try the spirits we shouldn't just call every spirit the Holy ghost. You have to pray. You have to find out from God.
 
Jul 14, 2019
214
122
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#84
Just my two bob's worth if I may. Being autistic I tend to deal with reality, not speculation. One of my biggest occupations is reading. I must read 50 books a year, mostly Christian with a few novels thrown in. Whilst I love to study theology having been to Bible
College, My main interest is books that tell the real story of when the rubber hits the road, meaning people who have experienced a miracle in their lives.

When I read that people believe God has divested himself of power, I have to laugh for the simple reason all over the world God is making himself evident by his supernatural power in healing and deliverance.

A couple of years ago I started reading books about the supernatural way God was reaching out to Muslims and showing them that he was the one true God and as a result, they embraced him and ditched Allah. Bearing in mind to do that often meant death so one does not countenance a move like that if it is fake.

And then there was my own experience in praying for a young man who had an acquired brain injury and his parents were told he would never walk again. Three weeks after I and two others laid hands on him and prayed for his healing, he walked out of the hospital well.

Not to mention a mother in Africa who brought her dead son to two Christian nurses in a primitive hospital who were not given to praying for dead babies. The mother said I have been to the witch doctor but he can do nothing for my son. If your God can bring him back to life I will follow him all my life. The two nurses in simple faith laid hands on the dead baby, prayed and he came back to life.

If God has given away his power and these things do not happen anymore, can anyone advise me where the source of all these miracles is?
I'm not saying people can't be healed. The Bible is perfect. Now we know how to pray. The elders lay hands on people. There are also miracles through the bible's teachings. It's not over it's just not needed to get messages anymore. Or pray in tongues. We have the Bible. Now we know fully.
 

JTB

Well-known member
Aug 31, 2021
2,232
701
113
#85
Blaming the Holy Spirit for His work on the devil. These people don't understand how dangerous what they are claiming is. smh
That's what makes this topic a very slippery slope.
 

TDidymas

Active member
Oct 27, 2021
311
69
28
#86
Do you know the difference between holding a believable discourse and getting angry because someone pointed out the ironic post you made?

You cannot understand scripture and state that tongues are not of God and in the next minute say you conversed with God

Frankly, I don't believe you at all when you say God told you that

you reject actual scripture and then claim you had extra-biblical revelation. can't make this stuff up
I simply replied to your post which you volunteered. If you wanted to discuss scripture, you would have done so, but all you have is opinion. My post was to the OP for his info and encouragement, but since you replied to me with hostility, you want me to just lay down to you like a doormat?

But your assumption that modern tongues is of God and is Biblical is questionable. There is something wrong with the picture, since there is a marked difference between the two, and I'm merely pointing out what that difference is. If that gets your goat, then perhaps your belief in that practice is not as strong as you think.
 

TDidymas

Active member
Oct 27, 2021
311
69
28
#87
how can you make such a blanket statement when we know that Speaking in Tongues is speaking [[((MYSTERIES))]]?

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for [[no man understandeth]] him; howbeit in the spirit he [[speaketh ((mysteries))]].

if we are Speaking to God, and no man can understand because it is a Mystery, how can you ask if we know a difference?

what is being Spoken to God is a Mystery only God can understand.
if i am not able to understand it, how can i know a difference when the MYSTERY being Spoken through me could be something i already said in English, but God wanted no one else to know what i said and gave me the Utterance to Speak it in a Mystery?

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as ((the Spirit)) [[gave them utterance]].
In my experience and observation, modern tongues is gibberish, not language. Experts have evaluated it, saying that it does not have enough structure and vocabulary to convey any message. Therefore, the only mystery being spoken is the one where you really don't know what you're doing. When the Bible says that mysteries are being spoken, it's talking about real language that does convey meaning, albeit meaning that those hearing don't understand, because they don't understand the language. This is the context of 1 Cor. 14. The idea that "only God can understand" what is spoken is a mere excuse, since Paul exhorted them to understand with their minds.

Many people have posted speaking modern tongues on youtube, which I do appreciate their efforts to reveal what is typically done. But I challenge you to show me even one that is a real language and conveys real meaning. I hope someone does prove me wrong, because among all the millions of people speaking in tongues, I'd like for at least a few to have the authentic gift. However, despite my open challenge to many Pentecostals, not one has provided such. It only strengthens my suspicion that not one person who speaks modern tongues has an authentic gift of the Holy Spirit.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,788
29,174
113
#88
Remembering Joel, the taste of what the future held.

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Joel 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

Joel 2:28+32
Thank you for the inspiration :)
 

Amanuensis

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2021
1,457
460
83
#89
I'm not saying people can't be healed. The Bible is perfect. Now we know how to pray. The elders lay hands on people. There are also miracles through the bible's teachings. It's not over it's just not needed to get messages anymore. Or pray in tongues. We have the Bible. Now we know fully.
Speaking in tongues will cease when we are perfect in our resurrected state.

Phil 3:
if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

12Not that I have already attained, or am already perfect; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me

When we are resurrected in a perfect body that can endure the Glory of seeing God face to face we will no longer know in part but in full.

Paul could not have been intending the completion of the book of Revelation as that which is perfect is come because Paul was talking about something he had in mind not something he had no knowledge was even going to happen.

Paul was referring to something he had already talked about. That which is perfect is come in Pauls mind was he would be resurrected. He said so in Phil 3 when he said ...
if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12Not that I have already attained, or am already perfect
but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me

Now when Paul said "that which is perfect is come" when we see him face to face and know as we are known, we can know he meant resurrection status because we know that is something he had in mind according to Phil 3.

There is not a shred of evidence that Paul had in mind the completion of the NT or that he was aware that he was writing a NT.
 
Jun 20, 2022
6,460
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#90
In my experience and observation, modern tongues is gibberish, not language. Experts have evaluated it, saying that it does not have enough structure and vocabulary to convey any message. Therefore, the only mystery being spoken is the one where you really don't know what you're doing. When the Bible says that mysteries are being spoken, it's talking about real language that does convey meaning, albeit meaning that those hearing don't understand, because they don't understand the language. This is the context of 1 Cor. 14. The idea that "only God can understand" what is spoken is a mere excuse, since Paul exhorted them to understand with their minds.

Many people have posted speaking modern tongues on youtube, which I do appreciate their efforts to reveal what is typically done. But I challenge you to show me even one that is a real language and conveys real meaning. I hope someone does prove me wrong, because among all the millions of people speaking in tongues, I'd like for at least a few to have the authentic gift. However, despite my open challenge to many Pentecostals, not one has provided such. It only strengthens my suspicion that not one person who speaks modern tongues has an authentic gift of the Holy Spirit.
you will never see me debating that there is not an issue here with several speaking in Tongues being just pure fiction. when i hear something that resembles tie my bow tie like a ribbon on a blow fly, that person is playing with fire and making a complete mockery.

i was dating a woman, who when i thought was alone, prayed part of my secret prayers Speaking in Tongues (i still do it today and will always do it). her friend was a linguist and they devised a plan to record me praying. evidently, she had heard me before and then during her visit with her friend brought it up and they planned this. they had recorded me 3 times. according to her friend, one had similar dialect to mandarin, one was similar to french, and the other was close to italiano. she was not able to make out concise wording but she also claimed it could not be fake and hitting these specific dialects.

i absolutely knew and believed within myself i was never faking it. and after talking to her myself, she doesn't believe i could be faking it and be so close to 3 specific Languages. i have always noticed when i Speak it Tongues it never has sounded the same as it did the last time i did it. even if i do it 10 times a day, each time has always sounded different to me. i don't know how to explain it. but i am thankful to have her opinion towards it.
 
Jun 20, 2022
6,460
1,330
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#91
I'm not saying people can't be healed. The Bible is perfect. Now we know how to pray. The elders lay hands on people. There are also miracles through the bible's teachings. It's not over it's just not needed to get messages anymore. Or pray in tongues. We have the Bible. Now we know fully.
1 Corinthians 13, Paul, tells us Speaking in Tongues is a Mystery only God understands.

don't we have problems today that 2,000 years ago they would have never faced? of course we do! no one knows why it is a mystery only that God gives the utterance and then hears the Mystery.

the Word of God tells us the Holy Spirit searches God like we are also searched.
10 But God revealed these things to us through the Ruach. For the Ruach searches all things—even the depths of God.

if the Holy Spirit searches us, according to the problems and issues we face TODAY + searches the very depths of God = gives us the Utterance to Speak the Mystery for God to understand.

there are things we need that we are not aware that we need. but the Holy Spirit knows we need it. the Holy Spirit will allow us to Speak the Mystery to God who Supplies what we need.

we are on a ONE ON ONE basis with God!
there is not one size fix for every Believer because none of us are dealing with the same problems, same issues. we have the SAME Enemy, but are attacked differently based upon each individual.

i am mentally strong. some are not mentally strong. Satan doesn't attack my mind like he will those who are mentally weaker. and God deals with us and Supplies our Needs according to us individually.

the Bible is a ROAD MAP!

it does not deal with the mysteries that the Holy Spirit connects between God and individual Believer. it just tells us why it is Mystery. this is why it is real and active until Jesus returns!
 

Clayman

Active member
May 30, 2021
358
100
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#92
Yes, it is Proper, because no one can ever imagine what Jesus as King of kings and Lord of lords is.

it's no different than the Original Greek saying Jesus said [[IT]] when referring to the Holy Spirit. it does not change what the Holy Spirit is.
I'm curious what verse has the HS referred to as it?

Thanks in advance
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
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London
christianchat.com
#93
Welcome Jonathan, couple questions, when did they cease and when will they return and in what Scriptures do you find this information? All of them or just some?

May be a strange question, but did you happen to notice if the people in your church spoke more languages (besides 'tongues') in general, than other people you've run across in life? Just curious is all.

I met a woman once who went to a pentecostal church and mentioned the 'tongues' and we got to talking so I started talking about how interesting and miraculous it was that everyone heard what was being said and in their own language even down to the the 'accent' of their native tongue and she seemed to be shocked but hey, she could have been a babe in Christ, I wasn't going to judge, we are all learning on the job, right? Anyway, I thought it would be safe to ask about WHAT was being said, how many did and who was interpreting, and how her church was enlightened by it and well, that didn't go well, apparently EVERYONE did it at the same time and no one understood anything anyone was saying. I pray that was not a good representation of it but sure was strange to me.

Looking forward to your reply...
Paul did not understand with his mind when he prayed in tongues but his spirit was edified ... those of us who have the experience of the gift understand this.

... why ask folks who have never experienced it? or else go by what the scripture says. People are judging by what their eyes see and their ears hear. Not good.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
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London
christianchat.com
#94
I never intend to speak against any Christian testimony, but when one goes off contrary to holy Scripture and invents things to practice, I often feel a need to share biblical truth with that one (and stay clear of the heresy), so they can see what the universal Church in the world should be: "unity of the faith" everywhere.
I do not see that God wants us to be in various sects with their innovations to please special interests, but a universal testimony --not only in the Gospels, but as in the Epistles. Beside the four Gospels, we need to appreciate the Epistles, where we can see God's intent for the universal Church. I often recommend one come to see what the Church should be in EVERY PLACE (note Acts 15:22-23; Acts 20:27-30; Romans 12:4-8; Romans 16:1-17; 1 Cor. 12:12; 25-27; 2 Tim 2:15; etc. In the Epistles we see the unity among Assemblies --even sending letters with one visiting other such brethren worldwide; even as we will be in Heaven ---would you say?
See if you can find two pages in a row in the NT where there is no quarrel going on.

We don't like factions but they are necessary that the truth might stand forth ... so also says Paul.

What do you want? another 1500 years of Roman Catholicism?
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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christianchat.com
#95
I agree. I have come to that conclusion myself. these folks who think you can 'teach' people to speak in tongues and get them muttering unintelligible syllables and so on...just no. I once heard fake tongues and I was with other believers who did speak in genuine tongues, as I do myself, and when this person (a pastor actually) began to 'speak' we all opened our eyes (we had been
praying) and looked at each other. I got goosebumps and knew it was fake...I can only describe it as a growling noise but I don't think he was growling.
you put your finger on the crux of the problem. Putting faith ahead of grace. First we wait to receive the grace, when we receive the grace we step out in faith. These things cain't be taught.

This same problem is the cause of 98% of all the excesses we see.

.... waiting on God is the hardest discipline to learn.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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christianchat.com
#96
Just so. I was a teen-ager alone in my room. Received Christ alone in the living room when I was just 5. I know God is real and I know Jesus died for me and has made Himself real to me.

I like to think about things and back off from being forced especially by a 'gang' of people. I think I know what is good for me better than a gang of people.
...oops here comes that gang of 'postles .... run

... I know what you mean
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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christianchat.com
#97
In the book of Acts we see converts eager to receive the Holy Spirit...they are not dragged down to the front of a building, with Joe and Sally and Susan placing hands on them (which Paul decried as to letting a stranger do such a thing) and commanding them to speak in tongues.

Run

I determined that no one is going to 'lay hands on me' ever again unless they ask first and even then it is doubtful. Actually the last person who wanted to know if I would let them pray for me received a resounding 'no'. There were very good reasons for that no and I had no doubt he wanted to influence me.

Oh.. And I also just love 'God told me to tell you' Makes me wanna scream God told me to tell you that you are hearing things. Actually, the last person to try that one on, got No, God did not tell you a thing. This is not God. The spirit operating through them got pretty angry at that response.

sigh
I have literally run ... been chased around a building and forced to stick me dooks up .... I was just a babe in Christ. But nobody lays their hands on me unless I want them to.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
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christianchat.com
#99
The way to reason from scripture that the gift of tongues has been put away and fulfilled its purpose is by looking at its purpose and the foundation that was laid by the apostles.

Foundation established.. no need for the tools used to make it.

1 Co 13 isn't the primary passage to use for cessationism.. but what leads....
What the process is that gets the point of the completion of the canon.
now THAT is gibberish
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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Brighton, MI
Tongues (languages spoken supernaturally) would have ceased when the Bible was completed, so by the end of the first century. Why would they return when the reason for this gift was in the past? Modern tongues (glossolalia) are not biblical tongues (glossais).
The Bible did not complete until 399 AD when the church finaly defined he canon.
Yes, the books were all written by 90 AD and not all local churches accepted all of those books until then.