Fraternizing with the enemy.

[YDo]

yes, never disagreed with that scripture but you calling women IRRELEVANT is insulting to women. I'm sure you could come up with a better word to describe objection to women assuming leadership roles. Irrelevant is a perfectly good word, but still..........

It is a perfectly good word. Just not as it was applied here to devalue the worth of women in God's plan.
We are all one , equals, in Christ. Devaluing women as preachers or anything else God calls them to serve in him ministry refutes that.

God calls women to teach, preach, heal, and govern. Priscilla, Junia, are just two in the Bible.
The Apostle Paul praised the worth of women Apostles in service to God and whom he knew personally.

 

[maxwel]

Do not get me wrong maxwel, I think what you wrote is very illustrative, but seldom are break ups in groups due to non essentials.

The splits are precisely because what groups consider very essential.

To be clear, I think Calvin is important, has much to teach us, but it looks like some people do not see the big picture here:

Jesus died for us (not Calvin), we are to be Christlike (not Calvinlike), Jesus came to baptize us with the Holy Spirit (not teach us original language exegesis [although is very important]), Augustine was the first to suggest cessationism, and he had to take it back because of the amount of miracles happening in the place he gathered with other believers to worship.

Calvin seems did not get that take back from Augustine. And kept pushing cessationism.

Magdalene had to have 7 unclean spirits expelled from her before she could become a disciple, the Bible tells us that in end times there were going to be people worse than her, so what is the Kingdom of God about? the finger of God expelling unclean spirits so that persons can be free to truly hold on to Christ.

This is the heavy stuff that divides, if all were non-essential, there would even not be break ups.

I am polite because I respect you, and because the fruit of the Holy Spirit has to show in us.

I am not pushing for any denomination in particular because I think most have good things to offer. But I do encourage for all to acknowledge God's reality, the Kingdom of God is His finger doing wonders (Holy Spirit, and His gifts to us), they can continue in their denomination, but do not deny the supernatural.

God's natural reality is supernatural to us because we are living in a fallen one. His reality is perfect. When He visits us then supernatural things happen (the imperfect gets fixed) because of His love for us His adopted children.

Both scholasticism (fine rational function), and Holy Spirit realm experience are needed (Paul was a perfect example of the mix).

Kind regards.

"...seldom are break ups in groups due to non essentials.
The splits are precisely because what groups consider very essential."



You're now debating my position by equivocating on the term "non essential doctrine."

1. Using the customary theological definition of "non essential doctrine", history will show that groups absolutely do split quite often over non essential doctrine.

2. I was never addressing what groups may subjectively consider "essential" in some general or abstract way; I was only addressing how groups split over "non essential doctrine" according to the normal theological definition of the term.

3. Theologically, if two christian groups actually split over "essential doctrine", then one of those groups is, by definition, not Christian... and we would be talking about an occurrence of something entirely beyond the scope of this argument.


...

 

[Churinga]

I'm arriving in this discussion when people are discussing what they have posted as their own thoughts. Churinga , the link in your discussion starter post was removed making it impossible to respond from the perspective of having read it. Do you have a link that would be approved and pertains to your original question?

inplainsite.org and use their search engine might help

 

[Hamilton]

"...seldom are break ups in groups due to non essentials.
The splits are precisely because what groups consider very essential."



You're now debating my position by equivocating on the term "non essential doctrine."

1. Using the customary theological definition of "non essential doctrine", history will show that groups absolutely do split quite often over non essential doctrine.

2. I was never addressing what groups may subjectively consider "essential" in some general or abstract way; I was only addressing how groups split over "non essential doctrine" according to the normal theological definition of the term.

3. Theologically, if two christian groups actually split over "essential doctrine", then one of those groups is, by definition, not Christian... and we would be talking about an occurrence of something entirely beyond the scope of this argument.


...

I see there is a fine use of certain terms, that most of us do not have available from your tradition's perspective.

Roughly I though you said that focusing in the reality of denominationism, and the effects of it is a straw man of sorts.

Most of us know from experience or reference that denominationism carries with it deep worldview and philosophical issues, and people react strongly because is about a topic we care much about.

The question is: which system is closer to the Biblical worldview and in alignment with its philosophical stance?

Calvin himself said it: "men's hearts are but a factory of idols" [rough paraphrase].

To me denominations are not in themselves a bad thing, as long as the founders of them, or some parts of the system are not idolized above Jesus Christ, His message, His reality, and utmost Authority.

kind regards.

 

[Hamilton]

I'm arriving in this discussion when people are discussing what they have posted as their own thoughts. Churinga , the link in your discussion starter post was removed making it impossible to respond from the perspective of having read it. Do you have a link that would be approved and pertains to your original question?

Could this be it?

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/fra...IbJzLPu1DL5U6y6fL-kC6bxocDo8P-y1l8kKCkJAwRWZ0

 

[YDo]

inplainsite.org and use their search engine might help

Thanks. Nothing remained in your initial post to give a clue as to where to begin searching.

 

[YDo]

Could this be it?

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/fra...IbJzLPu1DL5U6y6fL-kC6bxocDo8P-y1l8kKCkJAwRWZ0

Looks like it. Why would the link qualify for removal. Seems pretty harmless to me. Thank you for sharing that.

 

[maxwel]

I see there is a fine use of certain terms, that most of us do not have available from your tradition's perspective.

Roughly I though you said that focusing in the reality of denominationism, and the effects of it is a straw man of sorts.

Most of us know from experience or reference that denominationism carries with it deep worldview and philosophical issues, and people react strongly because is about a topic we care much about.

The question is: which system is closer to the Biblical worldview and in alignment with its philosophical stance?

Calvin himself said it: "men's hearts are but a factory of idols" [rough paraphrase].

To me denominations are not in themselves a bad thing, as long as the founders of them, or some parts of the system are not idolized above Jesus Christ, His message, His reality, and utmost Authority.

kind regards.

Equivocation is a very serious problem in theology, and a very serious problem in any realm of debate... but it's a problem which often occurs unintentionally.

God Bless.

...

 

[GraceAndTruth]

It is a perfectly good word. Just not as it was applied here to devalue the worth of women in God's plan.
We are all one , equals, in Christ. Devaluing women as preachers or anything else God calls them to serve in him ministry refutes that.

God calls women to teach, preach, heal, and govern. Priscilla, Junia, are just two in the Bible.
The Apostle Paul praised the worth of women Apostles in service to God and whom he knew personally.

No women were called to be apostles or to be in any leadership position. None "healed.
Women are to keep SILENT In the churches. Women are to stay at HOME and minister there as did the woman of virtue in Proverbs.

God does not change and he never called a woman in the old or new covenants to teach, preach or prophecy.
Women in the bible who had any position whatsoever were under the headship of a man.

However, women do have a place to serve in the church, as long as they are under the auspices of a pastor or other male leader.
They organize potlucks. They get to prepare the communion and then clean up afterwards. (tongue in cheek)

 

[YDo]

No women were called to be apostles or to be in any leadership position. None "healed.
Women are to keep SILENT In the churches. Women are to stay at HOME and minister there as did the woman of virtue in Proverbs.

God does not change and he never called a woman in the old or new covenants to teach, preach or prophecy.
Women in the bible who had any position whatsoever were under the headship of a man.

However, women do have a place to serve in the church, as long as they are under the auspices of a pastor or other male leader.
They organize potlucks. They get to prepare the communion and then clean up afterwards. (tongue in cheek)

The Bible says differently about women Apostles, and teachers. Women Apostles , some with their husbands, served in the Apostle Paul's ministry.
We are all one in Christ Jesus. Your ideas abrogate that. Those ideas are not of Christ.

 

[Hamilton]

Looks like it. Why would the link qualify for removal. Seems pretty harmless to me. Thank you for sharing that.

No idea, it was removed in some posts but I got it from one post that actually had it.

 

[Hamilton]

No women were called to be apostles or to be in any leadership position. None "healed.
Women are to keep SILENT In the churches. Women are to stay at HOME and minister there as did the woman of virtue in Proverbs.

God does not change and he never called a woman in the old or new covenants to teach, preach or prophecy.
Women in the bible who had any position whatsoever were under the headship of a man.

However, women do have a place to serve in the church, as long as they are under the auspices of a pastor or other male leader.
They organize potlucks. They get to prepare the communion and then clean up afterwards. (tongue in cheek)

I was exchanging ideas with some believers about this. My understanding is that women are not to set / develop doctrine. What is not clear if they are ok to do evaluation of doctrine and communication of doctrine.

There was a women prophet in the OT, now a days there are no more prophets in the Eschatology sense, there is a gift of prophecy bestowed by the Holy Spirit (related to non eschatological matters because the Canon is closed), but I am not sure if that qualifies a person with that gift as a prophet.

In my understanding (not dogma), women can be chaplains (because as such cannot set doctrine), praise leaders, intercessory prayer leaders, teachers of women, youths, kids, administrative leaders, etc. The restriction has been interpreted not to lead the congregation, but other roles seem to not be out of bounds.

Just researching a bit I found some interesting articles:

https://carm.org/where-can-teaching-women-ordination-lead

https://carm.org/denominations-women-ordination-and-other-errors

The topic is controversial, maybe we all should do more research on this and pray for the Holy Spirit guidance to the truth. We do not want to act against the Will of God in something as important as leadership in support of the congregation.

 

[YDo]

No women were called to be apostles or to be in any leadership position. None "healed.
Women are to keep SILENT In the churches. Women are to stay at HOME and minister there as did the woman of virtue in Proverbs.

God does not change and he never called a woman in the old or new covenants to teach, preach or prophecy.
Women in the bible who had any position whatsoever were under the headship of a man.

However, women do have a place to serve in the church, as long as they are under the auspices of a pastor or other male leader.
They organize potlucks. They get to prepare the communion and then clean up afterwards. (tongue in cheek)

Do you realize God is more than human bias's predict? "We are all one in Christ Jesus." If gender of one makes that one less than the other gender then that declaration of Christ is false.
Romans 16:7 Paul says, "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles who also were in Christ before me" NKJV).
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To be an apostle is something great. But to be outstanding among the apostles — just think what a wonderful song of praise that is! They were outstanding on the basis of their works and virtuous actions. Indeed, how great is the wisdom of this woman that she was even deemed worthy of the title of apostle.40
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