Free Grace or Faith and Works?

[John146]

No amount of works prove salvation to God or man.

 

[Adstar]

My time on this forum has been relatively short, but I've seen a common theme. There seems to be a long standing debate between those who teach free Grace and those who do not, in whatever form that takes. Some think salvation can even be lost and our purchased redemption can be forfeited. I'd really like to see someone defend this idea of faith and works. I'm hoping this can get a good discussion going about the nature of Grace.

May God be the Judge

We are justified in Faith alone in the Atonement of Jesus alone..

Good works will be done by the saved in one form or another.. But those good works play NO part in attaining or keeping our salvation.. Our salvation is secured by our Believing Jesus and trusting in the Atonement He secured on the cross to pay the penalty of our sins..

 

[mailmandan]

God's plan for us includes all, faith, works, and grace. If we understand and accept God's plan for us we need to understand what part each of these three play in that plan.

We are saved by grace through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works.. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Guys it a simple question. These are mutually exclusive. It's the justification BEFORE GOD. How are we ultimately justified.

Grace,

Justification is a legal term, It means you have paid your debt, or the penalty imposed by the judge. If the penalty or debt is 10 years behind bars, then the person is not “justified” until the ten years are served. Or the person could be “redeemed” or have his freedom purchased by someone else paying his debt for him

We owe God a debt, that debt is perfection. We have failed to live up to that obligation. So we have a penalty imposed on us, The penalty or debt is death, Which means for every sin we have ever commited, a death penalty is imposed. And for ever sin you will commit from today until the day you die, A death penalty will be imposed.

Which means, You will carry out that debt for eternity. Or you are in need of being redeemed, by someone else paying your debt.

Thats called the cross.

You are not justified from your debt for one sin by any good work you do. Your good works will nto make up or pay for the debt you owe The penalty is death, ONLY death can pay that debt, Which means ONLY God being put on the cross. Suffering the DEBT we owe God can satisfy the justice system God has imposed on the human race. Its called Grace, Through Christ death, he who knew no sin was made sin on our behalf so that we may become the righteousness of God (justified) in or through him.

Justification thus, can only come through faith, Not work, Because again, You can do millions of good deeds, obey Gods commands a million times, and even stop sin, You still will not have paid enough to satisfy the debt for one sin you have commited, let alone the inumerable other sins you have commited since birth.

Salvation by works is impossible. You can not maintain your salvation, Even if God only forgave your sins up to the point your saved, Your still responsible for the debt of every sin you commit after. And again, That penalty is death, If you alreay used up the grace God gave you, Your on your own, and there can be no salvation

Either God saved you by paying for ALL your sin (past present and future) or he paid for your sin up to a certain point, and you better never sin again, Because if you do. Your doomed!

 

[Blik]

Simple, the problem of Sin that separated you from God is not your individual sins but the sin nature u inherited from Adam

What do you think Christ does about the sins from Adam?

 

[Blik]

We are saved by grace through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works.. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

I certainly understand that none of us is holy and godlike enough to earn salvation, grace of the Lord has been from the beginning with the saving blood of Christ. Over and out.

Now! We have gone to Christ, through grace, our sin is wiped out, are we changed in any way? How does a saved person, who is righteous and sin free through the grace of the Lord and the blood of Christ believe and act as this saved person?

Paul tells us quite plainly.

 

[NayborBear]

As God draws nearer to one, even before one believes in Christ? Be it something as simple as "helping an old lady cross the street." (or some other selfless righteous act of love) Tis the "Spirit of God", that is within every breathing human being, that "sees a potential" (calling) in the Holy Seed germinating. Which is also in every breathing human being. Justified?
Yet, this same one? "On a whim", or for grins and giggles, while surfing on the tv, or internet, or even while working his job, or walking down the street, sees someone doing a selfless act of, or even random act of kindness? Or hears on the tv or radio, by song, or word? And, it doesn't have to be much. While "in passing", it can be. More? And receives? More of this "water", let's call it, that is God drawing nearer to that one. Some of this "water" seeps in as the rest goes like "water on a ducks back", And the seed germinates some more.

To the point that this one accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

Riddle me? At which point was this one Justified?

At the first righteous act? Some would say possibly, or even yes!

Or, at the point of acceptance of Christ?

 

[Nehemiah6]

No amount of works prove salvation to God or man.

Why would you say that when James says the exact opposite?

The Bible says that Christians are "created unto good works".

Which means that if you have no good works, you are not really saved.

 

[John146]

Why would you say that when James says the exact opposite?

The Bible says that Christians are "created unto good works".

Which means that if you have no good works, you are not really saved.

You should know by know I view James as doctrine to the twelve tribes of Israel during the tribulation and not upon the Church.

Paul says the opposite of James and yet does not contradict Scripture because of the separate audiences. Let's quote the verse:

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Believers are created unto good works, and we should walk in them. We should, but some simply don't. Believers will be judged based upon their labor for the Lord. Some will gain rewards, while some will suffer loss for failed labor.

 

[Blik]

As God draws nearer to one, even before one believes in Christ? Be it something as simple as "helping an old lady cross the street." (or some other selfless righteous act of love) Tis the "Spirit of God", that is within every breathing human being, that "sees a potential" (calling) in the Holy Seed germinating. Which is also in every breathing human being. Justified?
Yet, this same one? "On a whim", or for grins and giggles, while surfing on the tv, or internet, or even while working his job, or walking down the street, sees someone doing a selfless act of, or even random act of kindness? Or hears on the tv or radio, by song, or word? And, it doesn't have to be much. While "in passing", it can be. More? And receives? More of this "water", let's call it, that is God drawing nearer to that one. Some of this "water" seeps in as the rest goes like "water on a ducks back", And the seed germinates some more.

To the point that this one accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

Riddle me? At which point was this one Justified?

At the first righteous act? Some would say possibly, or even yes!

Or, at the point of acceptance of Christ?

I suppose it is like what comes first, the chicken or the egg? It isn't an act that causes us to be justified, It is the faith. The person who helped the lady cross the street did this through Christ, she gave her will to Christ. This resulted in her helping the lady. If she only watched someone struggle it would be because she didn't have Christ within. God looks at the faith in Him and justifies us through Christ, as we give our will to Christ the action naturally follow.

 

[Blik]

No amount of works prove salvation to God or man.

Then would you explain how a person can accept Christ, can give themselves to Christ, and never act in a way that Christ acts?

 

[FollowHisSteps]

My time on this forum has been relatively short, but I've seen a common theme. There seems to be a long standing debate between those who teach free Grace and those who do not, in whatever form that takes. Some think salvation can even be lost and our purchased redemption can be forfeited. I'd really like to see someone defend this idea of faith and works. I'm hoping this can get a good discussion going about the nature of Grace.

May God be the Judge

I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
Acts 26:20

You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
James 2:22

Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Rom 13:10

To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law.
1 Cor 9:21

Faith is only real when action is done as a result.
Faith without action is just thought faith, nothing more.

9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
Romans 10:9-10

'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
Matt 22:37

Love of God captivates everything that we are in Christ, to have this without it outworking
it is not real.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Then would you explain how a person can accept Christ, can give themselves to Christ, and never act in a way that Christ acts?

They can’t

That would be like saying person A has total faith in person B, Yet person A never does a thing Person B suggests or desires.. It means Person A was a liar and never trusted person B at all..

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Is it possible to know God and have Him in our hearts without any outward sign?

To be born again, means to start life in Christ from the beginning where the rules, the memories
the foundations are now in Jesus and not the world.

If we live is the defended sheltered world of a hard heart were change is not allowed, taking risks
or exposing ones feeling and heart are beyond ones ability to do, then Jesus has not yet found a
home.

A heart of flesh is a heart which is willing and desires new things in Christ, to grow and discover
the ways of heaven and of life, where love flows without limit to fill a dry parched land.
A heart of stone refuses to submit, admit, and repent and be humble to the King of Kings and
His ways, and will in the end break never to recover at His throne. Much better to open up,
allow His cleansing and His refreshing that changes us into His likeness, amen.

 

[BibletruthSOP]

The following is clear enough.....

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

But to the one who knows there is no salvation merit in any thing they can think, say, or do, but believes in everyword that proceedeth from the mouth of God unto Gods merit and full restoration, his faith is credited or accounted as righteousness, because such faith always results in righteousness (right doing) by the power of God.

 

[BibletruthSOP]

Sin was dealt with at he cross...Jesus sastified that debt....it is finished = paid in full and for the believer...where sin abounds grace abounds the more!!

After salvation sin is an issue of fellowship and and not sonship!

The cross paid sin in full for every human being..thats justification, and it applies to all humanity....Justification by faith or those who believe in him shall not perish.

 

[BibletruthSOP]

They can’t

That would be like saying person A has total faith in person B, Yet person A never does a thing Person B suggests or desires.. It means Person A was a liar and never trusted person B at all..

Justification (the faith type) cannot take place without 100% surrender

 

[BibletruthSOP]

Sin was dealt with at he cross...Jesus sastified that debt....it is finished = paid in full and for the believer...where sin abounds grace abounds the more!!

After salvation sin is an issue of fellowship and and not sonship!

God has never changed the definition of sin or the wages of sin. Sin is the transgression of the law (i.e. lawlessness) and the wages of sin is death. Sin requires foregiveness. There is no fellowship between righteousness and iniquity, zero.

 

[Jimbone]

The following is clear enough.....

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

This is towards this whole "debate" in general, not towards you DC. I count you as a brother in Christ no doubt to the bone and don't think you'll disagree with anything I'm saying. I just want it to be clear that I just used this comment as a "jumping in point" This is not to YOU personally or anything like that. Okay-

Of course, I have still yet to see ANYONE EVER saying that works save, the biggest disconnect here is some are stuck on "SALVATION", and never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, move past that, and then some speak of the works that naturally follow salvation in our lives as "a result of", AFTER, after after, after, after, after, after AFTER, salvation, As a result of salvation works follow. And always apply this to someone unsaved, or start making a case against maintaining salvation when no one is saying that at all. See we just can never get on the same page because people can take what I just typed, as overly clear as I was, and say I'm teaching works salvation. AHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! for real. It blows my mind how divided we want to be. (me most of all, embarrassingly) Why can we not understand each other and get on the same page? I never have this problem in person. Bottom line is I say once we receive the free gift, the gift beyond the reach of men outside Gods grace, the gift there is nothing I can do to earn, EVER.
but AFTER that, AFTER we are saved His work will shine in us, whoever He saves. AFTER It will be evident, otherwise it would be pointless. Please ANYONE who disagrees please step up and testify that God saved you through His Son Jesus, and that you do nothing for Him ever. That you live the exact same as before with no change. Unless someone can tell me that personally (I wish face to face because that's the best), I won't accept it because I have never heard any Christian testify that, and it's so opposite of what I know of God, and what I WILL testify. ANYONE that meets my God is radically changed forever, and will boldly proclaim that, and ready to serve Him in any way. To make the case one could be saved by God and not do anything for Him is an insult and just plain false. I will not be scared to proclaim the POWER of my King. Jesus!!!!!

 

[BibletruthSOP]

God has never changed the definition of sin or the wages of sin. Sin is the transgression of the law (i.e. lawlessness) and the wages of sin is death. Sin requires foregiveness. There is no fellowship between righteousness and iniquity, zero.

And where sin abounds grace abounds the more....that is why there is no excuse for sin, as grace (the power of God) abounds the more....as always, OSAS is just an excuse to go on sinning and never face the truth that sin must be gone with...as Jesus says.