Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, God chooses who is saved.

I agree. But that is NOT biblical election. God chooses to save believers.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

This is NOT an election.

[QUTOE]John 15:16 NKJV - "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."[/QUOTE]
Thank you for using a verse that proves that election is to service.

Can you argue that the bolded words are about salvation? No, you can't, because the 11 He chose and appointed were already saved.

Don't forget the verse that every Calvinist avoids: John 6:70

Did the apostle Paul have Faith when he was selected on the Damascus Road? No, in fact, he had hatred and murder in his heart for Christians. He was on his way to find and persecute them.

Yet, NO VERSE says that God elected Paul to salvation. Paul was chosen/elected for service. By his own mouth.

Jesus died for the Elect . . . those of the Vine.

Yes, He die. And everyone else, for that matter. 1 John 2:2

Can you show a verse that clearly shows a limitation of who Christ died for?

Romans 8:29 NIV - "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters."

?? This isn't about salvation or any election. It is about God predestining believers to bne conformed to the image of His Son.

There are many verses that show that people cannot believe.

No, there aren't. That is a false statement. There ARE verses that clearly SAY that people REFUSE to believe and REFUSE to repent.

That proves that believing and refusing to believe are choices. If a person refuses to do something, it means he CAN do it.

There is only one explanation for why you cannot understand these things and it is exactly because of what verse 8 states . . . your eyes and ears are shut.

The FACT that YOU cannot understand what I point out and the verses that REFUTE your claims proves that YOUR eyes and ears are closed.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

But that is NOT biblical election. God chooses to save believers.

Biblical Election depends upon Circumcision of the Heart. Until the Curse has been lifted, no one can believe. Therefore, God first chooses Spiritual Circumcision and then a person is Enabled to believe. Purification of the Curse comes first, then genuine belief follows, and this is why I told you that it is imperative that Spiritual Circumcision become your best friend . . . something that you know and understand.

Can you argue that the bolded words are about salvation?

Yes.

John 15:5 NLT - 5 "Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing."

And what does it mean to "remain in me"? This is Spiritual Circumcision as follows:

Colossians 2:9-11 NLT - "For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature."

Look at these vital verses closely. To be whole and "complete", they are "in" Christ. And how are we "in Christ?" We must be given the Circumcision of Christ. No one can produce legitimate fruit unless they are "in Christ" which cannot happen unless they have received the Circumcision of Christ. And anyone who has received the Circumcision of Christ has been saved, for Jesus does not cast His Pearls upon pigs. Never does He make that mistake.

NO VERSE says that God elected Paul to salvation. Paul was chosen/elected for service. By his own mouth.

Perplexing.

Can you show a verse that clearly shows a limitation of who Christ died for?

There is no list. But, the Bible is clear that not all will receive the Promised Land of Milk and Honey . . . Heaven. If we understand the Seven Nations (and sub-nations), we will know that Jesus did not die for Abominations, those whom God repeatedly told Israel to wipe out completely. These were/are not of the Vine. Jesus died for those who belong to the Vine . . . exclusively.

No, there aren't. That is a false statement.

I already showed you the passage, but your blindness won't allow you to see and understand it. There's nothing I can do about that.

The FACT that YOU cannot understand what I point out and the verses that REFUTE your claims proves that YOUR eyes and ears are closed.

That is most certainly a possibility, but there is no evidence of such blindness. There [is] evidence to the contrary.

Seriously, let's stop.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Human beings have "free will" in that they are free to will what they wish- but we are not free to DO whatever we wish, because in order to do that you would have to have absolute power over your circumstances, which we don't... unless we are submitting our will to God, who has the power over our circumstances. If we are choosing to submit to God, then it is not only his will that is being done- it's ours too. That's why believers have more free-will than non-believers: because non-believers have freedom of will, but not enough that it can ever be actualized.

Judas was chosen to be a witness for Jesus; but he didn't do that: Betraying Jesus wasn't a decision that God made for Judas; God chose him to be an Apostle; Judas chose to be a traitor. Now, he was chosen to do that which God knew he would choose not to do, because there needed to be someone to betray Jesus; however, that does not mean that Judas did not make the choice.

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

They were blind because they refused to humble themselves- God offered a chance for them to humble themselves.

PS69
22Let their table become a snare before them,
And their well-being a trap.
23Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.
24Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.
25Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.
26For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
27Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
28Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
29But I am poor and sorrowful: let thy salvation, O God, set me up on high.
30I will praise the name of God with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving.
31This also shall please the LORD better than an ox or bullock that hath horns and hoofs.
32The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek God.

IS29
10For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: 12And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
15Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?
16Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
17Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest?
18And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

JOHN9
Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

Jesus came to open the eyes of the blind. All they had to do was humble themselves and accept Jesus to find favor with God again.
Jesus didn't make Israel reject him. They rejected him despite being chosen to be his people. Yes, God knew they would; but No, it does not mean they didn't choose to stay blind.

Biblical Election depends upon Circumcision of the Heart. Until the Curse has been lifted, no one can believe. Therefore, God first chooses Spiritual Circumcision and then a person is Enabled to believe. Purification of the Curse comes first, then genuine belief follows, and this is why I told you that it is imperative that Spiritual Circumcision become your best friend . . . something that you know and understand.

Are you sure? I think you have the cause and effect totally backwards.

ROM4
11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised:

COL2
6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

The "circumcision made without hands" is received from the Spirit of Christ wherein we put off the body of the sins of the flesh and walk in the Spirit. This is not something that preceded faith- it comes as a result of faith.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Human beings have "free will" in that they are free to will what they wish- but we are not free to DO whatever we wish, because in order to do that you would have to have absolute power over your circumstances, which we don't... unless we are submitting our will to God, who has the power over our circumstances. If we are choosing to submit to God, then it is not only his will that is being done- it's ours too. That's why believers have more free-will than non-believers: because non-believers have freedom of will, but not enough that it can ever be actualized.

Judas was chosen to be a witness for Jesus; but he didn't do that: Betraying Jesus wasn't a decision that God made for Judas; God chose him to be an Apostle; Judas chose to be a traitor. Now, he was chosen to do that which God knew he would choose not to do, because there needed to be someone to betray Jesus; however, that does not mean that Judas did not make the choice.


They were blind because they refused to humble themselves- God offered a chance for them to humble themselves.

PS69
22Let their table become a snare before them,
And their well-being a trap.
23Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.
24Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.
25Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.
26For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
27Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
28Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
29But I am poor and sorrowful: let thy salvation, O God, set me up on high.
30I will praise the name of God with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving.
31This also shall please the LORD better than an ox or bullock that hath horns and hoofs.
32The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek God.

IS29
10For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: 12And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
15Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?
16Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
17Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest?
18And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

JOHN9
Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

Jesus came to open the eyes of the blind. All they had to do was humble themselves and accept Jesus to find favor with God again.
Jesus didn't make Israel reject him. They rejected him despite being chosen to be his people. Yes, God knew they would; but No, it does not mean they didn't choose to stay blind.


Are you sure? I think you have the cause and effect totally backwards.

ROM4
11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised:

COL2
6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

The "circumcision made without hands" is received from the Spirit of Christ wherein we put off the body of the sins of the flesh and walk in the Spirit. This is not something that preceded faith- it comes as a result of faith.

I appreciate the time that you've put into this, I do. I also appreciate your tone; a more gentle way of sharing your ideas.

That said, I couldn't disagree more with your assessment of the Scriptures. I'm sorry.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Moving onto the next example, we find that God literally changed the heart of king Heshbon so that he would not allow the Jews to peacefully pass to get to the Jordan.

Deuteronomy 2:30 ESV - "But Sihon the king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him, for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that he might give him into your hand, as he is this day."

Where is the king's sense of free will to choose and make his own decision in this matter? Why was God controlling his thoughts and actions?

I'm going to keep doing this until we reach the end. Why was the king's heart hardened to Israel? If God hadn't done this to the king, the Jews would have been able to peacefully pass. And as I have shown several times now, the Lord fights for Israel so that His Power would be made known, so that the world would know that He is the God of the Jews. There is always a point. There is always a Plan. There is always a Purpose.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
But that is NOT biblical election. God chooses to save believers.

Biblical Election depends upon Circumcision of the Heart.

There are NO verses that support this notion. Biblical election in EVERY CASE is about service. You have NOT proven your claims.

Until the Curse has been lifted, no one can believe.

That would mean there are NO OT believers. Jesus lifted the curse circa 33 AD.

Therefore, God first chooses Spiritual Circumcision and then a person is Enabled to believe.

Nope. Show me a verse that says this.

FreeGrace2 said:
Can you argue that the bolded words are about salvation?

Your response:

Yes.
John 15:5 NLT - 5 "Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing."

The problem is that it wasn't John 15:5 that I bolded, so your answer completely missed the question, which was this:
"John 15:16 NKJV - "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."

That was a verse YOU quoted, and my response to your verse was this:
"Thank you for using a verse that proves that election is to service."

So, again, look at the bolded words in v.16, which is "I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit".

So, NOW, can you argue that the bolded words IN V.16 are about salvation?

And what does it mean to "remain in me"? This is Spiritual Circumcision as follows:

Colossians 2:9-11 NLT - "For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature."

No, it doesn't have anything to do with "spiritual circumcision". To "remain in Me" in John 15 is about FELLOWSHIP with the Lord

iow, a believer must be in fellowship with the Lord in order to bear fruit.

Col 2;9-11 is describing regeneration.

FreeGrace2 said:
NO VERSE says that God elected Paul to salvation. Paul was chosen/elected for service. By his own mouth.

Perplexing.

I should think so. It must be VERY perplexing that Paul himself said that he was chosen for service.

FreeGrace2 said:
Can you show a verse that clearly shows a limitation of who Christ died for?

There is no list.

As you can see, I didn't ask for a "list". I asked for "a verse". Singular. And you don't even have ONE. That is a big red flag for your theology. iow, you can't even defend your own claims from Scripture. I, otoh, can defend my claims with verses that say exactly what I believe.

But, the Bible is clear that not all will receive the Promised Land of Milk and Honey . . . Heaven.

What does this have to do with anything. The promised land was EARNED. I guess you thought it was a reference to heaven. The Israelites had to WORK for it. Killing a lot of people. Hard word. Etc.

If we understand the Seven Nations (and sub-nations), we will know that Jesus did not die for Abominations, those whom God repeatedly told Israel to wipe out completely.

The Bible says no such thing.

These were/are not of the Vine. Jesus died for those who belong to the Vine . . . exclusively.

Just your opinion, since you have admitted that there are NO verses that teach that Jesus died for less than everyone.

In fact, those who belong to the Vine, in that figure of speech, ARE believers. Not those who are "going to believe".

 

[FreeGrace2]

Human beings have "free will" in that they are free to will what they wish- but we are not free to DO whatever we wish, because in order to do that you would have to have absolute power over your circumstances, which we don't... unless we are submitting our will to God, who has the power over our circumstances.

This is a false idea of what free will is. In fact, it really has nothing to do with our wills.

Free will means the FREEDOM to choose between available options. That's all. It certainly is NOT willing things that you want, as if willing them means they will occur. That sounds more like witchcraft or occult magic.

The gospel presents choices: to believe the promise or to not believe the promise. That's all. And man is FREE to make either choice, which refutes calvinism's claim that man has no free will.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

There are NO verses that support this notion. Biblical election in EVERY CASE is about service. You have NOT proven your claims.

Got it.

We're done.

 

[SomeDisciple]

This is a false idea of what free will is. In fact, it really has nothing to do with our wills.

How do you figure?

Free will means the FREEDOM to choose between available options. That's all.

What you're talking about is "Free choice", which is what man has- to an extent. "Free will" means Free Will.

It certainly is NOT willing things that you want, as if willing them means they will occur.

No. What I said was that in order to have free will you need control of your circumstances- which nobody has, except God. You have to willingly submit your will to God in order to liberate yourself from circumstances that are beyond your control. That's faith, not magic.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Elaborating on the above post; believers are predestinated to be conformed to the image of the Son of God. Being conformed to the image of the Son of God means that like Jesus, our will becomes "Father, your will be done". Insomuch as we submit our will to his- when his will is done, then our will is done because there is no distinction between the two.

Accordingly, an idol worshipper has no free will, because the idol has no power. I can ask an idol to make it rain, and give an offering to the idol- but I am a slave to the idol because the idol doesn't actually reward me for my offering or my worship.
If I serve my own flesh, it will crave things I can never hope to obtain for it, because it has limited power to obtain I have limited power to obtain; therefore, we can never fulfill the desires of such a master as ourselves. Idols enslave, but God is a rewarder- and gives his servants the power to do the things he sets them out to do.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
There are NO verses that support this notion. Biblical election in EVERY CASE is about service. You have NOT proven your claims.

Got it.

Glad you acknowledge it.

We're done.

Appears so.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
This is a false idea of what free will is. In fact, it really has nothing to do with our wills.

How do you figure?

That definition was about our wills doing things that we aren't able to do. Believing a promise from God is possible for everyone. It is a choice to believe or reject the gospel.

What you're talking about is "Free choice", which is what man has- to an extent. "Free will" means Free Will.

Of course I'm talking about free choice. I've been saying "freedom of choice" or "freedom to choose", and that applies to the gospel promise.

What I said was that in order to have free will you need control of your circumstances- which nobody has, except God.

Let go of your definition of free will then. Of course no one can control circumstances that are out of our control. And no one EVER argues that. I hope even the Arminians don't argue that way.

But Calvinism doesn't agree that an unbeliever is able to believe the gospel unless they are first regenerated. And there are no verses to support that claim. And Calvinists then conclude that man has no free will, when in fact their point is that man is unable to believe unless he has been regenerated. So even Calvinists don't really talk about free will, but rather free choice. And Calvinists DON'T believe that man can freely believe the gospel before regeneration.

You have to willingly submit your will to God in order to liberate yourself from circumstances that are beyond your control. That's faith, not magic.

Of course!! I can't even imagine that any sane person would argue otherwise.

Do you believe that when presented the gospel promise, that unregenerates have a free choice to believe the gospel?

 

[SomeDisciple]

Do you believe that when presented the gospel promise, that unregenerates have a free choice to believe the gospel?

Yes, of course. Only a twisted god would create people and only give some the capacity to do what he wants them to do and then give others eternal torment arbitrarily. Calvinism worships a messed up god. In fact, that's the way Calvin thought in his own mind, so Calvinists worship Calvin.
That's not to say that we don't have to humble ourselves in order to believe the Gospel- I think pride can blind unbelievers so that they "can't" believe the Gospel in a manner of speaking, but it's always a choice to humble yourself and put aside what you know, or what you think you know, and listen to the word.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, of course. Only a twisted god would create people and only give some the capacity to do what he wants them to do and then give others eternal torment arbitrarily. Calvinism worships a messed up god. In fact, that's the way Calvin thought in his own mind, so Calvinists worship Calvin.
That's not to say that we don't have to humble ourselves in order to believe the Gospel- I think pride can blind unbelievers so that they "can't" believe the Gospel in a manner of speaking, but it's always a choice to humble yourself and put aside what you know, or what you think you know, and listen to the word.

Well said!

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Glad you acknowledge it.

The only thing that I acknowledged is that we did not make any form of connection. Your views of the Bible are shocking (to me).

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Yes, of course. Only a twisted god would create people and only give some the capacity to do what he wants them to do and then give others eternal torment arbitrarily.

What I am attempting to establish is that the "people" that you are referring to do not belong to the Vine of Christ. Jesus doesn't "know who they are," meaning that they do not belong to His "flock." In other words, these are likely the remnants of the abominations that God purposfully left in place. This should not shock or surprise anyone, but clarify and relieve. Instead, and as noted, most people are offended, but they're not realizing that we are talking about "people" who are likely traced back to the Nephilim, etc.

If we track the True Vine of Christ throughout the Bible, we will find that the Jews consistently mated with these Seven Nations whom the Lord called to be completely wiped out. The Jews were allowed to intermarry with the Gentiles to the East, but they were strictly forbidden to intermarry with those from the Seven Nations. These things are discussed in a short chapter or two, but for now, I cannot find them and have to leave for a while.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

From Deuteronomy - My notes:

Gentiles from the East were given to the Jews for intermarriage. - Because these people are allowed to live (these verses are an extension of Deut 20:01-20), they cannot be considered as part of the Seven Nations that God calls to destroy. It seems that a Jewish man could marry Gentile women from the East. Chapter 20, verse 15 makes a clear distinction between the Seven Nations and the Eastern Nations far away from Israel. Because to the West is water, to the East must mean Gentile Nations. - God is providing the allowance for marriage to these people, but not to those of Deut 20:14, where God lists out all Seven Nations who are called to be destroyed. (See Also: Gen 25:06, Deut 20:01-20, 1 Kings 08:41-45 = 2 Chron 06:32,33, Psa 146:09, Matt 15:22-28 for supporting verses.) - It is said that those of the East were Gentiles, and it is Gen 25:06 that proves it.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, of course. Only a twisted god would create people and only give some the capacity to do what he wants them to do and then give others eternal torment arbitrarily. Calvinism worships a messed up god. In fact, that's the way Calvin thought in his own mind, so Calvinists worship Calvin.
That's not to say that we don't have to humble ourselves in order to believe the Gospel- I think pride can blind unbelievers so that they "can't" believe the Gospel in a manner of speaking, but it's always a choice to humble yourself and put aside what you know, or what you think you know, and listen to the word.

It’s because words on a piece of paper in a book aren’t good enough to prove anything. Even Harry Potter has words on a piece of paper in a book.

This is true then as it is true now. The word of God says people require proof:

1 Corinthians 1:22,23
22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Jesus said that believing because of the miracles He does is a valid reason to believe in Him:

John 10:37,38
37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

God isn’t asking people to fill their brain with head knowledge of the gospel , sermon material, and mentally acknowledge who Jesus is, even the demons do that. God is asking people to believe everything His Son said as though His words are inseparable from the very threads in the fabric of reality.

The goal is to get from someone’s reason and logic and reason to someone’s heart. This can be accomplished with miracles like Jesus did or with genuine love for our neighbor.

Romans 10:10
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[SomeDisciple]

What I am attempting to establish is that the "people" that you are referring to do not belong to the Vine of Christ. Jesus doesn't "know who they are," meaning that they do not belong to His "flock." In other words, these are likely the remnants of the abominations that God purposfully left in place. This should not shock or surprise anyone, but clarify and relieve. Instead, and as noted, most people are offended, but they're not realizing that we are talking about "people" who are likely traced back to the Nephilim, etc.

Ahh, I see- when you say "Nephilim" I am assuming you believe they are human-angel hybrid? This is one of those gray areas for me where I'm just honestly not sure what the bible is saying with respect to who the nephilim were. I don't think they were human-angel hybrids; however, I'm not completely shut off to the idea either. With respect to who is a "gentile" my understanding is that anyone who is not an Israelite is a "gentile" and the word translated "the gentiles" is interchangeable with "the nations"- that is to say, "nations that are not Israel".
But, yeah- the whole Nephilim thing is something that creates diversity of opinion because it's not clear, and there's a lot of non-canon historical literature on the subject.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Ahh, I see- when you say "Nephilim" I am assuming you believe they are human-angel hybrid? This is one of those gray areas for me where I'm just honestly not sure what the bible is saying with respect to who the nephilim were. I don't think they were human-angel hybrids; however, I'm not completely shut off to the idea either. With respect to who is a "gentile" my understanding is that anyone who is not an Israelite is a "gentile" and the word translated "the gentiles" is interchangeable with "the nations"- that is to say, "nations that are not Israel".
But, yeah- the whole Nephilim thing is something that creates diversity of opinion because it's not clear, and there's a lot of non-canon historical literature on the subject.

I am certainly no scholar, however, this is one of those fun topics that I addressed and cataloged as I read through the Bible several times in a timeline, chronological order. Reading the Bible that way makes it so much easier to not only read, but understand. Anyway . . .

Deut chapter 20 gives us a distinction between the Seven Nations of abominations that are to be completely wiped out and the Gentile Nations. I'll try to make this clear, but may not be successful. Best bet is to read the entire chapters on your own.

Deuteronomy 20:12-15 NIV - 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

Those Nations at a "distance" are the Gentiles, while those nearby are the Canaanites, etc. These are the abominations called to be completely wiped out, which is what most of the battles are about in the OT. These "people" are not of God. But note the condition, which is that if the Gentiles refuse to make peace, slay the men, but the women and children may be taken. Now, check out the following two verses:

Deuteronomy 20:16-17 NIV - 16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy them--the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites--as the LORD your God has commanded you.

There is a clear distinction between the Gentiles and those of the Seven Nations. The Gentiles are allowed to live while the abominations are called to be destroyed totally . . . all living things including animals. All were corrupt (which takes us back to the reason for the Great Flood). It's a similar situation, but not as catastrophic.

So, I was able to conclude that there are three Nations on the earth. The Jews, Gentiles, and abominations. And so here is another cool thing that the Lord apparently had me do . . . I asked the question, "Who is Israel?" I then read the entire Bible and cataloged all verses that addressed who they were; i.e. all of their copulating with the Seven Nations, through to Babylon and their exodus from that point onward, right down to who they were during the days of Christ. Frankly, Israel was always corrupt, which is why God kept killing off tens of thousands at a time. It seems that He was consistently purifying them of the offspring that came from the Seven Nations.

Getting this figured out really helped me to understand that God wasn't this horrible being that was just killing off perfectly good humans. No, He was destroying giants, etc, that did not come from him. Apparently, some of these giants were so huge that they were simply eating regular humans like you and me. Crazy. In fact, there are skulls of giant beings with two sets of teeth that are on display to this day. And then there are all of the megalithic structures that could have likely been built by these giants. And so this is why God wanted them wiped out . . . for they were not of Him, our Lord and God.

Fun stuff to think about.