Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

[2ndTimothyGroup]

2 Samuel 12:11 NLT - "This is what the LORD says: Because of what you have done, I will cause your own household to rebel against you. I will give your wives to another man before your very eyes, and he will go to bed with them in public view.”

Some say that it is disgusting that God might cause a person to sin. Well, is this not what is happening with Absalom (who in four chapters will fulfill this prophecy by God)? Isn’t God taking responsibility for the actions of the future man having open intercourse with David’s prior wives? The Lord told David what He would do to punish David, and are we really going to argue that it was the Lord who planted the idea into the mind of David’s son, Absalom? And didn’t this actually happen? Yes, it did. Who caused this event to happen? Yes, it was the Lord.

2 Samuel 16:22 NKJV – “So they pitched a tent for Absalom on the top of the house, and Absalom went in to his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel.”

The Scripture above is clear, which is that God “will cause your own household to rebel” against David. God is the cause, meaning, that if not for God, Absalom would not have had sexual relations with his father’s wives and concubines . . . a repulsive, disgusting act. But again, some say that it is disgusting to believe that God would cause a person to sin . . . yet here it is. Do we deny it? How can we? Was it not a sin, what Absalom had done? Or, was this a Righteous, Holy act inspired by the Holy Spirit?

And so where is the free will of Absalom to choose this act? As said, if not for the causal factor of God Himself, Absalom would NOT have performed these disgusting acts against his father, king David.

 

[oyster67]

What do these verses mean to you?

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

Paul was quoting Isa 29:10 and/or Deut 29:4.

Would not or could not?

Could not, because they were placed into a "deep sleep" by God Himself. Do you accept this Scripture or will you deny it by ignoring and not responding?

Let's step back and look at the big picture, and get the real story...
Romans
1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Let's step back and look at the big picture, and get the real story...

I'm not sure what you mean. Did I offer up Scripture that was from a fake Bible?

 

[posthuman]

Paul quoted Isa 29:10 and Deut 29:4 because they are important if a person is to understand the True Gospel.

Therefore the LORD said:​

“Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths
and honor Me with their lips,
but have removed their hearts far from Me,
and their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,
Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work
among this people,
a marvelous work and a wonder;
for the wisdom of their wise shall perish,
and the understanding of their prudent shall be hidden.”
(Isaiah 29:13-14) ​

​

which came first;
the people removing their hearts from Him?
or His hiding their understanding?

if they cannot remove their own hearts from Him, why does He speak as if they can?

 

[John146]

2 Samuel 12:11 NLT - "This is what the LORD says: Because of what you have done, I will cause your own household to rebel against you. I will give your wives to another man before your very eyes, and he will go to bed with them in public view.”

Some say that it is disgusting that God might cause a person to sin. Well, is this not what is happening with Absalom (who in four chapters will fulfill this prophecy by God)? Isn’t God taking responsibility for the actions of the future man having open intercourse with David’s prior wives? The Lord told David what He would do to punish David, and are we really going to argue that it was the Lord who planted the idea into the mind of David’s son, Absalom? And didn’t this actually happen? Yes, it did. Who caused this event to happen? Yes, it was the Lord.

2 Samuel 16:22 NKJV – “So they pitched a tent for Absalom on the top of the house, and Absalom went in to his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel.”

The Scripture above is clear, which is that God “will cause your own household to rebel” against David. God is the cause, meaning, that if not for God, Absalom would not have had sexual relations with his father’s wives and concubines . . . a repulsive, disgusting act. But again, some say that it is disgusting to believe that God would cause a person to sin . . . yet here it is. Do we deny it? How can we? Was it not a sin, what Absalom had done? Or, was this a Righteous, Holy act inspired by the Holy Spirit?

And so where is the free will of Absalom to choose this act? As said, if not for the causal factor of God Himself, Absalom would NOT have performed these disgusting acts against his father, king David.

Because you did this...I will do this...

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Psalm 51:10-12 RSV – “Create in me a clean heart, O God, and put a new and right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence, and take not thy holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of thy salvation, and uphold me with a willing spirit.”

What a remarkable prayer from king David, is it not? Consider all of the aspects of this prayer that indicate a controlling God.

• Create in “me” a clean heart
• Put a new and Right Spirit within “me”
• Uphold me with a willing Spirit

First, it is important to note that this is a song. Who is it written for? David alone? Or, could this song be written for those around him? Could it be written for his fighting men as they enter into battle and war?

Questions: What does a “clean” heart do? Is it not the center of a person’s mind? If a heart is not cleaned, does a heart think in evil ways? And if it [is] cleaned, does it think more Rightly?

Matthew 15:19 RSV – “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander.”

What does it mean if the heart is not cleansed? Can a person think in Right and Holy ways? Of course not! For this is what the Adamic Curse is all about. It is the Curse of the Lord that does not allow a person to think in ways that are congruent with the Holy Ways of the Lord. Until a person has received a cleansed heart, they are held captive of the Devil to do his will.

What are the implications for receiving a Right Spirit? Does this new Spirit not give us the capacity to Love the Lord God? Does this new Spirit not grant us the ability to obey?

For those of you who are disgusted with the NLT translation, please allow the KJV to speak to your heart in this matter:

Ezekiel 36:25-27 KJV – “Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”

Clearly, the purpose for receiving this new Spirit is to CAUSE a person to obey; to “walk in” the Lord’s statutes.

Third, David encourages others to receive a Spirit of willingness? A Spirit? If a person had the free choice to do whatever he or she desires, why would David teach us to request a Spirit that is willing? Does this not denote a Spirit that is unwilling?

Obviously, David is writing about how vital it is that humans receive the help and assistance of the Lord if they are to obey. Clearly, these teachings from David are showing and proving that a person cannot obey until they are caused to do so. If this is not the case, then there is no need for these teachings and they are utterly false.

Think about it: If a person has an unwilling Spirit within them, where is their free right to choose to be willing? Impossible, this type of person MUST be granted a new Spirit that causes them to obey. But even still, once that Spirit has been granted, they will be CAUSED to obey. It is this new Spirit that is responsible for Holy Transformation just as described in Romans 12:2. This is not of ourselves, lest we should be allowed to boast, but instead, Transformation comes from God.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Because you did this...I will do this...

Are you sure? Do you believe in the Eternal Plan? Have you studied this Biblical principle, which happens to be the Gospel, the Story of God?

 

[John146]

Are you sure? Do you believe in the Eternal Plan? Have you studied this Biblical principle, which happens to be the Gospel, the Story of God?

The Lord declared what he was going to do based upon David's personal choices.

10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
11 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

The Lord declared what he was going to do based upon David's personal choices.

10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
11 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

Why would you ignore what I wrote, which revolved around God causing Absalom to do what HE did? Why would you do this?

 

[John146]

Why would you ignore what I wrote, which revolved around God causing Absalom to do what HE did? Why would you do this?

Ignore what? That God moved Absalom to do what he did? I don't deny that at all. But God didn't arbitrary act in this manner. His decision was based upon David's decision of adultery. No conflict here.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

That God moved Absalom to do what he did? I don't deny that at all.

Very good. That's what this thread is about, that God causes people to do things that they would not have done without His dominion and control over their minds.

Now, back to other material that you ignored:

I asked:

"Do you believe in the Eternal Plan? Have you studied this Biblical principle, which happens to be the Gospel, the Story of God?"

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why would you ignore what I wrote, which revolved around God causing Absalom to do what HE did? Why would you do this?

Why would you claim that God caused Absalom to SIN???

 

[Polar]

Why would you claim that God caused Absalom to SIN???

As we know, God causes no one to sin.

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: James 1:13

and in the vernacular

13 No one experiencing temptation should say, “I am being tempted by God”; for God is not subject to temptation to evil, and he himself tempts no one.

This business of God being cause and effect is a major hurdle in Calvinism as it places God in the center of our chaos rather than the One who has the answer to our chaos.

The responses from the op put me in mind of 'kicking the can down the road'. You know? Just not responding to questions but acting as though butter wouldn't melt and how could we be so impossibly sinful as to not recognize the authority of his opinion?

 

[John146]

Very good. That's what this thread is about, that God causes people to do things that they would not have done without His dominion and control over their minds.

Now, back to other material that you ignored:

I asked:

"Do you believe in the Eternal Plan? Have you studied this Biblical principle, which happens to be the Gospel, the Story of God?"

God’s redemption of man through Jesus Christ? Of course, but God does not force man to receive his redemption.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

God’s redemption of man through Jesus Christ? Of course, but God does not force man to receive his redemption.

Okie doke. Once again, the capacity to conversate is wayward. Best of luck to you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

John146 said:
God’s redemption of man through Jesus Christ? Of course, but God does not force man to receive his redemption.

Okie doke. Once again, the capacity to conversate is wayward. Best of luck to you.

Rather, the "capacity" to prove one's point with clear Scripture is wayward with this poster.

It would be most helpful if 2TG had at least ONE verse showing that God does force man to receive His redemption.

That would be a start. But, when other posters simply ask him for verses that support his notions, he prefers to leave the conversation.

Shows that he does know that he has no support from Scripture for his opinions.

 

[Thewatchman]

I didn't even make it to the end of your first sentence. Please place me on "Ignore." You and I have no reason for further communication.

Polar agree or disagree that is no way to talk to a brother or sister in Christ. I am sure you and I woud not agree on everything but we should be able to be civil wirh one another.

 

[Thewatchman]

I just finished reading this page of posts; Iam not sure where I fit in. God gives us free will we can choose to follow Him or not. There are those like Paul that God calls He really did not have much of a choice.
Luke 21
12But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19In your patience possess ye your souls.
In our church Pastor says that this is where the unforgivable sin will accure if it happens at all.(Verses 14&15) That would be to refuse the Holy Spirit to speak through you as a wittness. Other that that we have the right to choose to follow or not. The one thing that God can not force us to do is love Him.
Here is where a lot of peole will disagree with me. In the begining before the fall of Satan when he was to protect the mercy seat Satan got the idea that He would take over the mercy seat. There was a war in heaven and a third of Gods children were kicked out of heaven with Satan. There was also a number that stood with God in that war and they are called Gods elect. You read about them in the bible I get the idea that this group of people have a special call on there lives and God will bring them unto Him and He will use them because they stood with Him in the first earth age.
That is my 2 cents worth

 

[Thewatchman]

You have not asked yourself two critical questions: (1) Does God make arbitrary decisions like some people? and (2) Does God give sinners every opportunity to repent before He hardens their hearts?

Unbelieving Jews during the time of Christ on earth had DAILY opportunities to see Him in action and hear His words from God. But they willfully chose to reject Him. Christ probably did miracles every day, since John tells us that not everything He did was recorded. Yet the naysayers refused to repent and believe on Him. That began while John was baptizing Israel, and John even told them the truth to their faces (Mt 3:7-10) and told them to repent:
7 But when he [John] saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Then Jesus told the Parable of the Fig Tree (a symbol of the nation of Israel) to remind us that God gave Israel three and a half years to repent, but they would not. Therefore in the end they could not.

LUKE 13: JESUS TELLS ISRAEL TO REPENT
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. 7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? 8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: 9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

GOD DOES NOT ARBITRARILY SEND SINNERS TO HELL. LEARN A LESSON FROM THE FIG TREE.

Do you understand the parable of the fig tree or are you just throwing out a verse because what you have posted has nothing to do with the parable of the fig tree or having 31/2 years to repent

 

[oyster67]

I'm not sure what you mean. Did I offer up Scripture that was from a fake Bible?

The Bible is not the problem. Your misinterpretation and failure to acknowledge context is where the trouble lies. You have been shown the context and meaning, and you have the freewill choice to reject it.