Gentiles
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Causing division between Jews and Gentiles is the opposite of what I'm presenting. It's your doctrine that separates the word of God from the Word of God. I do not present doctrine contrary to the New Testament. Avoid me as the scripture says if that's what you believe I am presenting. I always use scripture to back up what I say. Maybe I should use Geneva instead of KJV. That's an even earlier translation into the English language.
"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned ; and avoid them." Romans 16:17
"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned ; and avoid them." Romans 16:17
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As larger numbers of Gentiles turn to God through Christ Jesus, the Apostles (including Paul) were being challenged to disciple each new soul into Messiah, but a dispute arose regarding the matter of circumcision for Gentiles. Acts 15 records how followers of Jesus from a Pharisaic background demanded Gentiles to be circumcised and keep Torah of Moses, but the particulars of circumcision that were being contested were not an observance of the Law God gave to Moses.
“Peter rose up, and said unto them” (Acts 15:7) “Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.” (Acts 15:19-21)
These 4 commandments provided preliminary elements (initiation) for the newly converted Gentiles to join the existing Messianic community. The reason Peter was so emphatic in his statement is that he reasoned with common sense in light of the law being taught every seventh day, and the Gentiles would then increase in their understanding of scripture as they gathered in the synagogues to hear the reading of Moses. (Acts 15:21) This is confirmed by Peter's epistle “And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;” (2 Peter 1:5) And Paul confirms this in his 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] letter to the church at Corinth. “having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,”
It was only a matter of time (within the same century) that all-Gentile based (non-Jewish) Christianity would rapidly turn the tables. Not only did the Gentile Church abandon Moses, (beginning with the doctrines that the Roman Catholic Universal Church adopted), but soon began to demand that Jewish followers of Jesus forsake both Torah and their Jewish heritage. In today's Christianity this precedence continues and enhances the confirmed end result of the “falling away.”
“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” 2 Thessalonians 2:3
“Peter rose up, and said unto them” (Acts 15:7) “Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.” (Acts 15:19-21)
These 4 commandments provided preliminary elements (initiation) for the newly converted Gentiles to join the existing Messianic community. The reason Peter was so emphatic in his statement is that he reasoned with common sense in light of the law being taught every seventh day, and the Gentiles would then increase in their understanding of scripture as they gathered in the synagogues to hear the reading of Moses. (Acts 15:21) This is confirmed by Peter's epistle “And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;” (2 Peter 1:5) And Paul confirms this in his 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] letter to the church at Corinth. “having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,”
It was only a matter of time (within the same century) that all-Gentile based (non-Jewish) Christianity would rapidly turn the tables. Not only did the Gentile Church abandon Moses, (beginning with the doctrines that the Roman Catholic Universal Church adopted), but soon began to demand that Jewish followers of Jesus forsake both Torah and their Jewish heritage. In today's Christianity this precedence continues and enhances the confirmed end result of the “falling away.”
“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” 2 Thessalonians 2:3
The true remnant followers of Jesus Christ are they that sing the song of Moses, and have the testimony of the Lamb, which is to follow Jesus being conformed into His image, and having His mind.
[video=youtube;0ayhislN5I4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ayhislN5I4[/video]
“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.” (Romans 8:29) “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:” (Philippians 2:5)
“Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.” (Romans 15:8-12)
[video=youtube;0ayhislN5I4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ayhislN5I4[/video]
“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.” (Romans 8:29) “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:” (Philippians 2:5)
“Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.” (Romans 15:8-12)
Straw man. . .you are so confused.
You set the Scriptures against themselves, ipso facto proof that you do not understand them correctly, because God does not contradict himself.
You do not understand that the words of the Son spoken in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers are the light in which the words spoken of old in the former days are to be understood.
You seek to make it the other way around, that the complete revelation of the NT is to be understood according to the incomplete revelation of the OT.
You keep trying to shoehorn new covenant doctrine into old covenant notions.
I will avoid you as Paul avoided the Judaizers. . .whose false doctrine he often and strongly addressed.
You set the Scriptures against themselves, ipso facto proof that you do not understand them correctly, because God does not contradict himself.
You do not understand that the words of the Son spoken in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers are the light in which the words spoken of old in the former days are to be understood.
You seek to make it the other way around, that the complete revelation of the NT is to be understood according to the incomplete revelation of the OT.
You keep trying to shoehorn new covenant doctrine into old covenant notions.
I will avoid you as Paul avoided the Judaizers. . .whose false doctrine he often and strongly addressed.
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See Lev 12:3.
The believing Gentiles were already part of the church which included many believing Jews.
No Gentile had to be circumcised for salvation as the Judaizers required (Ac 15:1).
However, four accommodations were made in areas where the Gentiles had particular weaknesses and where the Jews were particularly repulsed by Gentile violations. The stipulations would help the Gentiles, as well as facilitate the fellowship between Jews and Gentiles in these churches if these practices were observed.
They did not apply to all the churches, only those in the provinces of Antioch, Syria and Cilicia.
It had nothing to do with the Sabbath, and everything to do with fellowship in the churches in these provinces only.
More shoehorning of old covenant notions into the doctrine of the new covenant church.
The believing Gentiles were already part of the church which included many believing Jews.
No Gentile had to be circumcised for salvation as the Judaizers required (Ac 15:1).
However, four accommodations were made in areas where the Gentiles had particular weaknesses and where the Jews were particularly repulsed by Gentile violations. The stipulations would help the Gentiles, as well as facilitate the fellowship between Jews and Gentiles in these churches if these practices were observed.
They did not apply to all the churches, only those in the provinces of Antioch, Syria and Cilicia.
It had nothing to do with the Sabbath, and everything to do with fellowship in the churches in these provinces only.
More shoehorning of old covenant notions into the doctrine of the new covenant church.
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God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
God spoke to us through Jesus Christ, and Christ Jesus is the Creator of all things who also spoke to "the fathers by the prophets."
He didn't change His mission from the beginning to achieve the end result. We should never insinuate that He had to invent a New Testimony (Testament) because the old one didn't work. The old was necessary to pre-empt the new so the new could be understood according to the plan which never changed. We should never demand our doctrine to separate, or diminish any part of God's word. Believing Jews are not separate from believing Gentiles any more than the Old Testament is separated from the New Testament.
"Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews," as Jesus talked with the Samaritan woman at the well, (anti Jew and vise versa). (John 4:22)
"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." (Hebrews 13:8)
Now concerning the "later days," they are mentioned throughout Torah and the Prophets beginning in Genesis 49:1."And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days."
So Jacob, being Israel, speaks of the "later days" concerning His descendants. Israel must then be included rather than being separated from the Gentiles that are also in the "later days."
Comparing the "later days" with James 5:3 and 2 Peter 3:3 we read; "Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,"
This era of the "later days" culminates with "the day of Atonement" that follows the blasts of the Trumpets.
This explanation does the opposite of causing division in the true church.
God spoke to us through Jesus Christ, and Christ Jesus is the Creator of all things who also spoke to "the fathers by the prophets."
He didn't change His mission from the beginning to achieve the end result. We should never insinuate that He had to invent a New Testimony (Testament) because the old one didn't work. The old was necessary to pre-empt the new so the new could be understood according to the plan which never changed. We should never demand our doctrine to separate, or diminish any part of God's word. Believing Jews are not separate from believing Gentiles any more than the Old Testament is separated from the New Testament.
"Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews," as Jesus talked with the Samaritan woman at the well, (anti Jew and vise versa). (John 4:22)
"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." (Hebrews 13:8)
Now concerning the "later days," they are mentioned throughout Torah and the Prophets beginning in Genesis 49:1."And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days."
So Jacob, being Israel, speaks of the "later days" concerning His descendants. Israel must then be included rather than being separated from the Gentiles that are also in the "later days."
Comparing the "later days" with James 5:3 and 2 Peter 3:3 we read; "Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,"
This era of the "later days" culminates with "the day of Atonement" that follows the blasts of the Trumpets.
This explanation does the opposite of causing division in the true church.
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your talking rubbish. and just adding confusion to your play on words. is the new testament , also call a new covenant. again different days and times.
were they told on the same day, give pentecost is about between 10 -16 year before act 10.
not at the same time. again your quote is taking rubbish. was not save in the time, and were saved in the time.
and i dont want to post an other 500 if this is the rubbish you offer. so make your point plain to see.
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I certainly agree but we need to be careful how far we take this. The same verse says there is neither male nor female; but any man with a wife or a daughter recognizes that there are indeed still differences.
God indeed does not show partiality on the basis of Jew/Gentile, male/female, owner/worker; but there are still cultural, physical, and compensatory distinctives in life.
“Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, *For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. **And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. ***And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. ****And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust. (Romans 15:8-12)
* “Therefore will I give thanks unto thee, O Lord, among the heathen, and sing praises unto thy name. Psalm 18:49
** “Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people:” Deuteronomy 32:43a
*** “O praise the Lord, all ye nations: praise him, all ye people. Psalm 117:1
**** “And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.” Isaiah 11:10
Many Gentiles have been led by the Holy Spirit into the Kingdom of Messiah and delight in the law of God.
“But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.” (Romans 10:19-21)
“I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name. I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;” (Isaiah 65:1-2)
According to Paul, the Gentiles, by turning to God also created an opportunity for the Jewish people to repent from their non-scriptural rituals and turn to Jesus, their Messiah by the testimony of believing Gentiles.
"I say then, Have they (Isreal) stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to [a] provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?” (Romans 11:11-12)
Those who say that the "law has been made void," or God "has abolished it" through His own Son's Crucifixion, can in no way make any "Israeli Jew" jealous for Christ without Jesus' own Father's instructions to ancient Israel. Paul is clearly talking about Gentiles, and the Jews (together as one body) attaining righteous qualities by having the law written on their hearts. (Jeremiah 31:33)
Is it possible to have something in your heart that never existed in your life?
[a] “Unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; (1 Corinthians 9:20)
* “Therefore will I give thanks unto thee, O Lord, among the heathen, and sing praises unto thy name. Psalm 18:49
** “Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people:” Deuteronomy 32:43a
*** “O praise the Lord, all ye nations: praise him, all ye people. Psalm 117:1
**** “And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.” Isaiah 11:10
Many Gentiles have been led by the Holy Spirit into the Kingdom of Messiah and delight in the law of God.
“But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.” (Romans 10:19-21)
“I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name. I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;” (Isaiah 65:1-2)
According to Paul, the Gentiles, by turning to God also created an opportunity for the Jewish people to repent from their non-scriptural rituals and turn to Jesus, their Messiah by the testimony of believing Gentiles.
"I say then, Have they (Isreal) stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to [a] provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?” (Romans 11:11-12)
Those who say that the "law has been made void," or God "has abolished it" through His own Son's Crucifixion, can in no way make any "Israeli Jew" jealous for Christ without Jesus' own Father's instructions to ancient Israel. Paul is clearly talking about Gentiles, and the Jews (together as one body) attaining righteous qualities by having the law written on their hearts. (Jeremiah 31:33)
Is it possible to have something in your heart that never existed in your life?
[a] “Unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; (1 Corinthians 9:20)
More shoehorning. . .
Ro 11:25 - "And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in."
Paul states the opportunity is to repent of their unbelief.
Please show where Paul states the opportunity is "to repent from their unscriptural rituals."
You are so confused. . .
The NT states that the law given to the people (Heb 7:11)
was set aside because it was weak and useless to make perfect (Heb 7:18-19)
and a better hope (than the law which only condemned) was introduced
by which we draw near to God, the new covenant (Heb 7:18-19).
Paul says otherwise. . .you misrepresent so much of the NT.
Ro 11:25 - "And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in."
Paul states the opportunity is to repent of their unbelief.
Please show where Paul states the opportunity is "to repent from their unscriptural rituals."
You are so confused. . .
The NT states that the law given to the people (Heb 7:11)
was set aside because it was weak and useless to make perfect (Heb 7:18-19)
and a better hope (than the law which only condemned) was introduced
by which we draw near to God, the new covenant (Heb 7:18-19).
Paul says otherwise. . .you misrepresent so much of the NT.
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It's verse 23, not verse 25
Romans 11:17-24
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[SUP]21[/SUP]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And they also, **if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Jesus' words, not Paul's
Matthew 15:7-9
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Hebrews 7:11, 14,18 and 19
[SUP]11 [/SUP]If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
The writer in Hebrews is clearly referring to the Levitical priesthood that made nothing perfect and it was therefore considered as weak. It is the duty of the priest to exact the law of God whether from the tribe of Levi or the tribe of Judah. Levi was weak and was replaced with a "better hope," being the Priesthood of Judah. That Priesthood is perfect in Christ, Him being the High Priest of the New Covenant.
The law wasn't disannulled according to the words of the High Priest of the New Covenant. It was the Levitical priesthood that was disannulled due to their failure to guarantee eternal life such as the New Covenant Priest being Christ Jesus. Same law, different administrator.
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Matthew 5:17
Destroy is comparable to disannulling. Fulfill is comparable to administrating.
*I'm under the impression that you are actually accusing Jesus of "shoehorning" instead of me.
"For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me." Romans 15:3
"For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me." Psalm 69:9
Romans 11:17-24
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[SUP]21[/SUP]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And they also, **if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Jesus' words, not Paul's
Matthew 15:7-9
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Hebrews 7:11, 14,18 and 19
[SUP]11 [/SUP]If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
The writer in Hebrews is clearly referring to the Levitical priesthood that made nothing perfect and it was therefore considered as weak. It is the duty of the priest to exact the law of God whether from the tribe of Levi or the tribe of Judah. Levi was weak and was replaced with a "better hope," being the Priesthood of Judah. That Priesthood is perfect in Christ, Him being the High Priest of the New Covenant.
The law wasn't disannulled according to the words of the High Priest of the New Covenant. It was the Levitical priesthood that was disannulled due to their failure to guarantee eternal life such as the New Covenant Priest being Christ Jesus. Same law, different administrator.
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Matthew 5:17
Destroy is comparable to disannulling. Fulfill is comparable to administrating.
*I'm under the impression that you are actually accusing Jesus of "shoehorning" instead of me.
"For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me." Romans 15:3
"For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me." Psalm 69:9
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Just-me, and Elin,
Calling each other 'confused' accomplishes little beyond irritating each other. I disagree with much of what Just-me has posted;but I have no doubt that you both fully understand your positions, and both hold them sincerely. Neither of you is likely to persuade each other of very much by trading insults and jibes, IMO.
However if both of you consider it worthwhile to irritate each other for the mental exercise; I suppose that the rest of us will have to stand back and watch or ignore as we are led. If so, HAVE AT IT!
Calling each other 'confused' accomplishes little beyond irritating each other. I disagree with much of what Just-me has posted;but I have no doubt that you both fully understand your positions, and both hold them sincerely. Neither of you is likely to persuade each other of very much by trading insults and jibes, IMO.
However if both of you consider it worthwhile to irritate each other for the mental exercise; I suppose that the rest of us will have to stand back and watch or ignore as we are led. If so, HAVE AT IT!
What will Gods government be ?
God will be head over all
God Almighty—the Father of Jesus Christ—is Supreme Lawgiver,
and Head over Christ, and over all that is.
We know that Jesus Christ is to be King of kings, and Lord of lords
over both state and church, united through him.
All others, in positions of governmental authority, will be
resurrected immortals, born of God—no longer flesh-and-blood humans.
Abraham , the father of all who are Christ’s and heirs of salvation
given a greater position of authority in God’s kingdom than David
and that he will be over both Israelites and gentiles.
He is “father” of gentile converts as well as Israelites.
Then again, repeatedly the Bible uses the phrase, “Abraham,
Isaac and Jacob,” grouping them together as a team, and calling
them, together, “the fathers.” For the promises were repromised,
also, to Isaac and Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel.(Luke 13:28).
There will be one Church—one God—one religion—one educational system—one social order.
And, as in God’s original pattern in ancient Israel, they will be united.
Three men—Peter, James and John, among the original twelve disciples
were privileged to see the kingdom of God in a vision (Matthew 17:9).
this vision—this glimpse into the coming kingdom
and they were Moses and Elijah. These two, in the vision, represented the
offices of church and state, with and under Christ, as they will
be in God’s kingdom. Both Moses and Elijah qualified in their
human lifetime for very high positions in the kingdom of God.
Moses was the one through whom Christ gave the laws and the statutes of government
Moses was trained as a son of a pharaoh (king of Egypt). His training
and experience were among gentiles, as well as the children of Israel.
Elijah, above all others, is represented in Scripture as the
prophet who restored the worship of the true God—and obedience
to his commandments. When Elijah ordered King Ahab to
gather on Mount Carmel “all Israel” (1 Kings 18:19-21)through(verse 39).
The vision of the Transfiguration (Matthew 16:27 through
17:9) gave the apostles Peter, James and John a preview of Christ
coming in his kingdom
Moses over all organized national and international government;
Elijah, over all organized church, religious and educational activity.
And it is significant that Elijah had organized and headed three schools or colleges
(2 Kings 2:3, 5;4:38—at Bethel, Jericho and Gilgal) teaching God’s truth in
a world corrupted by false pagan education.
tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh (descended from Joseph),
will become the two leading nations of the world (Jeremiah
30:16-18; 31:4-11, 18-20; Isaiah 14:1-2; Deuteronomy 28:13).
We know that King David of ancient Israel will be king over the twelve
great nations composed of literal descendants of the twelve tribes of Israel.
We know the twelve apostles will each be a king, sitting on a throne,
over one of those great nations descended from the tribes of Israel.
King David, will be king, under Moses, over all twelve nations of Israel
(Jeremiah 30:9; Ezekiel 34:23-24; 37:24-25).
Each of the original twelve apostles will be king, under David, over one of these nations
(Matthew 19:28).
The parables of the pounds (Luke 19:11-27)and talents(Matthew 25:14-30)
under Moses. What prophet—what man of God—
did God send to be trained at top-level government
authority, in the world’s very first world empire?
When God, through the prophet Ezekiel, named three of
the most righteous men who ever lived, he named Daniel as one
of them. The other two were Noah and Job (Ezekiel 14:14, 20).
And it is evident that God will assign Noah and Job to offices of
very great magnitude.
possibility, in passing, to consider that
Daniel’s three colleagues in this Chaldean Empire service—
Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego—might serve as a team(Daniel 12:13).
Joseph became food administrator of the greatest nation on
earth of that time—Egypt. Joseph was synonymous with “prosperity.”
“And the Lord was with Joseph, and he was a prosperous
man; and … the Lord made all that he did to prosper in his hand”
(Genesis 39:2-3).
structures Christ will require for the world he will create. “And they shall build
the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair
the waste cities, the desolations of many generations” (Isaiah 61:4).
Job was the wealthiest and greatest man of the east (Job 1:3)
and a noted builder. (Compare Job 3:13-14 with God’s challenge
in Job 38:4-6.) He was so upright and perfect, God even dared
Satan to find a flaw in his character. Actually, there was a
terrible sin in his life—self-righteousness. But God brought him
to repentance. (See Job, chapters 38-42.)
At least one other man seems indicated as a top assistant
in this vast administration. That is Zerubbabel (Haggai, and Zechariah 4).
When Jesus Christ returns to earth in the full supreme power and
glory of the Creator God, he is coming, this time, to save the
world, spiritually. Christ, himself, will be ruling from Jerusalem.
Stationed there with Christ, under immediate direction of Elijah, it is
indicated, will be those immortals chosen by Christ to constitute
the Headquarters Church. Revelation 3:12 indicates those of the
“Philadelphia era” will be pillars in that Headquarters Church.
Next, in this all-important Headquarters Church organization,
working with and directly under Elijah, it appears, will
be the resurrected John the Baptist.
He came “in the spirit and power of [Elijah]” (Luke 1:17).
Of him, Jesus said, “Verily I say unto you, Among them that are
born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist …” (Matthew 11:11).
He was the Elijah prophesied to come (Matthew 11:7-11).
-or something like that
God will be head over all
God Almighty—the Father of Jesus Christ—is Supreme Lawgiver,
and Head over Christ, and over all that is.
We know that Jesus Christ is to be King of kings, and Lord of lords
over both state and church, united through him.
All others, in positions of governmental authority, will be
resurrected immortals, born of God—no longer flesh-and-blood humans.
Abraham , the father of all who are Christ’s and heirs of salvation
given a greater position of authority in God’s kingdom than David
and that he will be over both Israelites and gentiles.
He is “father” of gentile converts as well as Israelites.
Then again, repeatedly the Bible uses the phrase, “Abraham,
Isaac and Jacob,” grouping them together as a team, and calling
them, together, “the fathers.” For the promises were repromised,
also, to Isaac and Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel.(Luke 13:28).
There will be one Church—one God—one religion—one educational system—one social order.
And, as in God’s original pattern in ancient Israel, they will be united.
Three men—Peter, James and John, among the original twelve disciples
were privileged to see the kingdom of God in a vision (Matthew 17:9).
this vision—this glimpse into the coming kingdom
and they were Moses and Elijah. These two, in the vision, represented the
offices of church and state, with and under Christ, as they will
be in God’s kingdom. Both Moses and Elijah qualified in their
human lifetime for very high positions in the kingdom of God.
Moses was the one through whom Christ gave the laws and the statutes of government
Moses was trained as a son of a pharaoh (king of Egypt). His training
and experience were among gentiles, as well as the children of Israel.
Elijah, above all others, is represented in Scripture as the
prophet who restored the worship of the true God—and obedience
to his commandments. When Elijah ordered King Ahab to
gather on Mount Carmel “all Israel” (1 Kings 18:19-21)through(verse 39).
The vision of the Transfiguration (Matthew 16:27 through
17:9) gave the apostles Peter, James and John a preview of Christ
coming in his kingdom
Moses over all organized national and international government;
Elijah, over all organized church, religious and educational activity.
And it is significant that Elijah had organized and headed three schools or colleges
(2 Kings 2:3, 5;4:38—at Bethel, Jericho and Gilgal) teaching God’s truth in
a world corrupted by false pagan education.
tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh (descended from Joseph),
will become the two leading nations of the world (Jeremiah
30:16-18; 31:4-11, 18-20; Isaiah 14:1-2; Deuteronomy 28:13).
We know that King David of ancient Israel will be king over the twelve
great nations composed of literal descendants of the twelve tribes of Israel.
We know the twelve apostles will each be a king, sitting on a throne,
over one of those great nations descended from the tribes of Israel.
King David, will be king, under Moses, over all twelve nations of Israel
(Jeremiah 30:9; Ezekiel 34:23-24; 37:24-25).
Each of the original twelve apostles will be king, under David, over one of these nations
(Matthew 19:28).
The parables of the pounds (Luke 19:11-27)and talents(Matthew 25:14-30)
under Moses. What prophet—what man of God—
did God send to be trained at top-level government
authority, in the world’s very first world empire?
When God, through the prophet Ezekiel, named three of
the most righteous men who ever lived, he named Daniel as one
of them. The other two were Noah and Job (Ezekiel 14:14, 20).
And it is evident that God will assign Noah and Job to offices of
very great magnitude.
possibility, in passing, to consider that
Daniel’s three colleagues in this Chaldean Empire service—
Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego—might serve as a team(Daniel 12:13).
Joseph became food administrator of the greatest nation on
earth of that time—Egypt. Joseph was synonymous with “prosperity.”
“And the Lord was with Joseph, and he was a prosperous
man; and … the Lord made all that he did to prosper in his hand”
(Genesis 39:2-3).
structures Christ will require for the world he will create. “And they shall build
the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair
the waste cities, the desolations of many generations” (Isaiah 61:4).
Job was the wealthiest and greatest man of the east (Job 1:3)
and a noted builder. (Compare Job 3:13-14 with God’s challenge
in Job 38:4-6.) He was so upright and perfect, God even dared
Satan to find a flaw in his character. Actually, there was a
terrible sin in his life—self-righteousness. But God brought him
to repentance. (See Job, chapters 38-42.)
At least one other man seems indicated as a top assistant
in this vast administration. That is Zerubbabel (Haggai, and Zechariah 4).
When Jesus Christ returns to earth in the full supreme power and
glory of the Creator God, he is coming, this time, to save the
world, spiritually. Christ, himself, will be ruling from Jerusalem.
Stationed there with Christ, under immediate direction of Elijah, it is
indicated, will be those immortals chosen by Christ to constitute
the Headquarters Church. Revelation 3:12 indicates those of the
“Philadelphia era” will be pillars in that Headquarters Church.
Next, in this all-important Headquarters Church organization,
working with and directly under Elijah, it appears, will
be the resurrected John the Baptist.
He came “in the spirit and power of [Elijah]” (Luke 1:17).
Of him, Jesus said, “Verily I say unto you, Among them that are
born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist …” (Matthew 11:11).
He was the Elijah prophesied to come (Matthew 11:7-11).
-or something like that
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