giving principles in 2 cor 8 & 9 superior to tithing

[pagie]

all sacrifices in Israel came from the Tithe, The priest of he OT had to have a continual flow of blood in order to remain in forgiveness with God.
the OT laws required constant daily sacrifice to God in order to maintain the forgiveness of sin, this is one reson they were cursed if they did not keep the tithe it and blessed if they did.
* Malachi is never quoted in the New testament to valedate tithing, * old covanent priests that Mal 3:10 adresses didnt pay tithes but robed God by sacraficing bad sacrifices, see Mal 1:6-14, these sacrifices came from the tithe, ( tithes are not money )
* the whole tithe NEVER went to the Temple,those who say it did ignore that the levites were made up of 24 devisions ( Num 35, Josh 20,21, 1 chr 6 )
these 24 devisions of levites rotated on a roster taking terns in asissting the priests at the Temple, they lived in the 48 Levitical cities dispersed all around the land of Israel 2 chr 31:15-19 Neh 10:37, the farmers were expected to take there tithes to the Levitical cities "WHY" that is were the levites lived, see Josh 20,21; Num 35; 1 chr 6:48-80; 2 chr11:13-14; Neh 12:27-29; 13:10; Mal 1:14
the 10% went to the levite and 10% of that (being 1% of the overall tithe) went to the priest Lev 27:29-34, num 18:21-24, neh 10:37, num 18:25-28, neh 10:38.

 

[pagie]

the store house was all over Israel

 

[pagie]

heb 7 tithes are asociated with tithes that take away sin it was writen to hebrews who understood this explaining that Jesus was sacrificed once for all and that this is needed because the sacrifices under the Law were inferior to it

 

[pagie]

*priests didnt tithe we are priests
* sacrifices to take away sin came from the tithe Jesus was sacrificed once for all
* if we followed the tithe acording to the way the bible says we would give to the ushers and lay,man 10% first (servants of the priest-Levites)them in turn would give 10% of that to the paster (priest)
*the newtestament never calls the church a building or a stoehouse
*when you look at the contents of the tithe it is always food never money
*examples of giving in the newtestament cant be compared with the tithe since the tithe is always 10%
*there has always been money in the old testament and tithes were not money not once
*no tithing scriptures are used for examples of giving for new testament believers
*if old testament priests are taken over by new testament priests and we are all priests shouldnt we recieve a tithe instead of paying it
*the Apostle Paul prefered the church elders to be self supporting

 

[Josh]

Hi Jerry

Its in Hebrews 7 (i hope so) where paul talks about this Malksedek. Having no father No mather No begining of Days no End. No race ........................... and many more.

Who do you that man was?
I would like you to tell me i also know.
I believe it was God in Human Flesh so that He could commune with Abraham as man to man.

Josh

 

[jerrywlo]

Hi Josh

I did study on the confusing subject of God speaking to people, yet we are told that no man has seen nor can see Him. However I have noticed that, although not always, it is an angel speaking for God. To put you in the picture please look at the book of Judges 2:1 to see what I mean. Then you can look at God speaking to Abraham and Moses in Ge 18 and Ex 3. As the matter of fact that seems to be a patern through the scriptures.

Angels are on stand-by to curry out God's commandments Ps 103:20.
An angel led Israel according to Ex 22:20-21. It is confermed later in the scripture many times.

Please just give it a thought.

 

[jerrywlo]

Hi Josh

I forgot to mention that your concept of God in flesh receiving tithing from Melchizedek is questionable based on Ex 33:20, De 4:15, Joh 1:18, 6:46, 1Joh 4:12. We are told here that no one could nor can see God. Receiving tithing personally, in flesh, would imply just that.

 

[RoseLady]

The actual meaning of the word:
A tithe (from Old English teogo

Jesus' words:
Matthew 23:23
“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens, but you ignore the more important aspects of the law—justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but do not neglect the more important things.

 

[RoseLady]

The actual meaning of the word:
A tithe (from Old English teogo

 

[RoseLady]

The actual definition of the word:
A tithe (from Old English teogo

 

[MahogonySnail]

I hope we realise that the tithe today is very different to the tithe spoken about in the bible, as Pagie pointed out. There's a reason... It was introduced only in 500 and something AD...during emperor charlmagne's reign, before that the church did not tithe. Ministers/monks etc supported themselves in trades. So it should really be called the "christian tithe", and was established as a church tradition rather than it having much biblical basis from a command of Christ or something like that (there's no commands to tithe in the new testament church, probably because christian communities had no large storehouses etc to store any food/produce etc, and the Jewish tithe lost its significance with the destruction of the temple, and no levitical priests to support etc).
The practice of tithing (the christian tithe) has continued in the church today I guess since most church denominations have come from the roman catholic church originally where it first originated.

Is tithing wrong? No, ministers/churches need support , 'don't muzzle an ox'. The bible says to support ministers. But it can be thought of like a "church tax". Whats probably wrong is some of the ways in which it is misrepresented as something spiritual or noble and referring to misquoted (out of context ) scripture...especially the way it is confused with free-will giving and prosperity teaching (eg "give else you won't be blessed") but on the face of it..and for a very practical reasons...ministers need to eat.. and the tithe usually gets spent on the church's electricity bill or something like that anyway.

 

[itsallGods]

Hi Paige, I too believe what you say about people putting themselves under the law in this sense. They also are under the law on alot of other subjects teaching for doctrines the commandments of men, making the Word of God of none effect because of their traditions. mark ch 7

 

[pagie]

hi itsallGods how are you? yes puting themselves under the Law is what I believe it is. when I was 17 I became a christian and I atended a course for new christians the paster runnung the course brought up tithing and concluded from reading the scriptures that tithing isnt under the law since the tithe was mentioned before the law was given and I accepted it since he read it to us all from the scriptures.
but if we read the book of GALATIANS we see paul talking about Circumcision, though circumcision was intraduced before the Law with Abraham, and we see clearly in the context of it that Paul makes perfectly clear that Circumcision is of the Law and those doing it are puting themselves under the Law, since this Circumcision is considered to be under the Law though intrduced before the Law was given to Moses it makes no sence to me why tithing would be excluded from being under the Law just because there are examples of it before the Law was given. so now I dont believe what I heard the paster say to me because now I conclude that if I tithe I put myself under the Law in the same way I would if I were to be circumcised and it says Gal 5:2-3 Mark my words, I Paul tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is required to obey the whole Law.
if you read Galatians and replace the word circumcision with tithe the whole thing will still make perfect sence in all its context. ( though we know Paul was talking about circumcision.)
in Acts 5 we see the story of Ananias and Sapphira. now in the case of this husband and wife and there free will offering which wasnt even a tithe, they droped dead because they lied about how much they gave, how much more worse would it be for those who claim that they tithe and even so there tithe isnt scriptualy sound in acordance with how tithing is mentioned in scripture yet still putting themselves under the Lawl. though I believe those who tithe believe they are doing so unto God, I think it would be a little safer for me to say that I dont tithe at all though I dont believe in tithing anyway.

 

[jerrywlo]

Ga 5:2-3 is a strong argument. Thanks Pagie. Sorry, but my post was general except I placed your quote the way that it makes my post look directed to you.

 

[NoahsDad]

Hi Josh

I did study on the confusing subject of God speaking to people, yet we are told that no man has seen nor can see Him. However I have noticed that, although not always, it is an angel speaking for God. To put you in the picture please look at the book of Judges 2:1 to see what I mean. Then you can look at God speaking to Abraham and Moses in Ge 18 and Ex 3. As the matter of fact that seems to be a patern through the scriptures.

Angels are on stand-by to curry out God's commandments Ps 103:20.
An angel led Israel according to Ex 22:20-21. It is confermed later in the scripture many times.

Please just give it a thought.

uuuuummmmm.I think youre missing a whole lot n your studies.
Have you Not ever read the 17th chapter of Genises?.Nowhwere does it addess God as "The Angel of The Lord"...as a matter of fact the exact words used are Yhovah(Lord) and El(GOD)These were never names of angels .Moreover when God stoped talking to Abraham it is written
Gen 17:22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
now this is totally off subject .....so I'll leave this reproof with melchizadek
This is the verse that Paul is quoing. Referring to Christ Jesus .This is Prophecyabout the messiah
and the proof of the fulfillment of that prophecy

Psa 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
Notice the part in this last verse where it said "Braught bread and wine"
In the passover Whos body is the bread and whos blood is the wine?
This is what paul is referring to.
You wanna know Who the King of Salem is.Find out What Salem means then do a search on that.(BTW it means peace.so the King of Salem is "The King Of Peace" )Wonder who else is called this in the bible .Perhaps its in Isaiah.....Maybe you should look and see B4 you Say That God Never visits anyone in theFlesh........Then maybe youll understand the verse in John 1:1 where John said
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Holla

 

[jerrywlo]

Thanks. We need to consider all scriptures and not be swayed by one verse, which might be misstranslated, to hang our doctrine on.

I have quoted verses which make it categorically impossible for a man to see God and live. God also forbed making any pictures or monuments to dipict Him. God is above any human immagination. We need to give given some considerederation to for instance
Jdg 2:1 And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.

Please note what the angel is saying: "I sware unto your fathers...I will never break my covenant with you". And who made the covenant with the fathers? Was it not God? In Ps 110:4 David quotes the former verse from Jdg 2:1.

The word for God in Ge 17:22 is 'ĕlôhîym which also mean angel, judge, mighty. So my line of thinking makes sense.

"Yhovah" doesn't appear, as far as I know, in the original scripts. Jews made it out of the tetrogramme YHWH or JHWH in the second halve of the first millenium.

I don't speculate on who Melchizedek is. There are few theories. What I was noticing was that "no man can see God and live". Moses lived. That should make us, I think, to be extremally cautios when we have to contradict God's Word in order for us to promulgate our idea.

In the case of Joh 1:1 we have the spoken word of God "dabar" fulfilled as it was prophesized. I assume that you speak according to the belief in Triune God. I would like you to point me to the scripture where the word "Trinity" or "Holy Trinity" appears. I can't find it. I also know that we are not at liberty to add or remove anything from the Word of God. If you have such authority please let me know.

Jesus was Col 1:15 ...the image of the invisible God... Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Jesus aknowledges in speaking to His Father Joh 17:3: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

We have dozens of, unefected by translation, fundamental verses to base techaching about God's unity. This is the God as He has revealed Himself to man kind in the O.T.

As the Word of God was "hijacked" by pogans since year 325, the "little horn" of Da 7:8 made extreme affort to destort it. At least 50 million of people lost their lifs in the wave of persecution.

It is something to think of.

 

[Josh]

Hi Jerrywlo.

For sure i do consider your responce on the issue of the Angel (Malchisedec) who met Abraham. For sure it was but consider the wordings of Paul about this Angel. Becouse i believe all angels were created by God hence they have a begining of Their days, Can we therefore agree that paul made a mistake while writting Hebrews 7?

Consider this..........
Bible says this Malksedec .... has no father no mother no Begining of days (note that) or ending of His days.

Fathermore this Angel after receiving them Paul says God when talking with Moses about tithing He says that the tribe of Levi should not tithe coz they tithed when in Abraham so who was this Angel?

Concerning the Angels that went and met Abraham at the Oaks of Mamre, Just take a keen look on how Abraham addresess those angels. When he ran to them he said my Lord and not Lords. Shows he recognized one not all to be his Lord. and the bible continues, God said will i hid what am about to do to Abraham seeing i have made him an Inheritor of my greatness personal statement. This Angel has to be different from the other two.

If you look in the bible angels never accepted to be worshiped even in Revelation the angel said to John the Revelator dont do it and in many other scriptures but here Abraham worshiped not all but the one he called my Lord and was accepted.

Kindly look in to this scriptures and tell me who was thi?

with much regards

Josh

 

[jerrywlo]

There is some confusion in the Bible from time to time. We have to bear in mind that the English language is quite poor in expressing Hebrew or Greek vocabulary. Such areas serve well for manipulators of the scripture. They will purposely avoid undisputed clear fundamental statements to promulgate their doctrines. The "little horn" from Da 7:8 has been extremaly succesful on this field.

Personaly, I identify the fundamental statements first and work alone those "not so sure" to see if I can reconsile them all.

Whether God was seen by peoople is one of such areas. The clear and undisputed verses of Ex 33:20, De 4:15, Joh 1:18,6:46, 1Jo 4:12 make it not possible for man to see God. So what I do when I see verses to say to the contrary? I look at them carefuly.

In Ge 16:7-9 the angel of the Lord speaks with Hagar. He promisses to multiply her seed exceedingly in verse 10 as if he was God. Yet she called the name of the Lord who just spoke to her, the angel, God in verse 13.

We have Jacob in Ge 32:24-5 who wrestled with man and prevailed. Earlier in Ge 32;1 the angel of God met him. So he must have wrestled with that angel. Yet Jacob reports in Ge 32:28 that he has seen God face to face. Should I use this verse to prove that Jacob has seen God? I wouldn't. I am convinced that Jacob has seen an angel as a human and he wrestled with him.

Again in Ge 33:9-10 Jacob says that seing face of Esau is like seing the face of God. Does he indicate that he has seen the face of God before? No, he just says that he is so hapy to see Esau especialy that Esau is not angry with him anymore.

In Ex 24:11 the nobles of Israel saw God (eloheem). Yet we are told that it was an angel:
Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Act 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

As I have indicated earlier I can't ofer a good answer who Melchisedek in Heb 7 realy was. A presiding priest may have been made as an abstract figure, the king of peace, to indicate a position to be taken up by Jesus, as there was no one in such capacity before. I only have problem with the notion that it was God Himselve. God is not a priest. He needs not tithings made by man's hands:
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

 

[NoahsDad]

to each his own ...........I spose

 

[pagie]

Hi guys I think the subject is going a little off track, its all interesting though but can we keep on track