giving principles in 2 cor 8 & 9 superior to tithing

Josh · Jan 13, 2009

Hi Jerrywlo

With all respects i do take ua comments seriously but with total strength i do DISAGREE with you of any contradiction in the bible. God inspired the writers of the bible and he knows not all of us know Hebrew or greek then He must be sooo unfair to let those who interpreted the bible to bring in confusion. It shows then those who cant understand Hebrew stand a chance not to understand God fully.
I do believe God inspired king James,Scolfield and others to fund the translation of the bible yet some were not a scholar.
Paul clearly says "This Malksedek who went to meet Abraham after killing the 5 kings, To Him Abraham gave Him the tithe of all things He had".

When he explain this man he says "had no begining of days (must not be an angel coz they were created hence have a begining) no end to his days ( again satan was an angel with the third he was thrown from heaven with one day they will be finished making the angels can have the end of their days) no mother no father......................."

The new testament and mostly the Epistles of paul were to expound the old Testament.
Look in Egypt we r not told the two Magicians who withstood moses but Paul says "as Janes and Jambres withstood moses............" Paul was explining the old testament but still said he sees in part but when the fullness of the things come (which i believe is today) all the hidden things will be brought to light.
Also says Rev. 10:7 "when the 7th angel sounds the mystery of God is revealed.............."
I do believe all is laid down well in the bible to be true No one has ever seen God ( which God) bible says "God is a spirit" but when He used to come and talk with Adam he used to wear a body called (theophany) like the one Jesus had after His resurrection.
He met Abraham in the same body at the oaks of mamre.

I do believe this malkisedek who took the TITHE from abraham was God and thats why i do tithe coz no where tithing was abolished in the old or New testaments

God bless

Josh

jerrywlo · Jan 13, 2009

Thanks for your objection Josh. God inspired the original scripts of which there are many tranlations in the world today. If you had chance to compare few of them you would appreciate how much they differ in some areas. In my opinion none is 100% "corect". The problem is even biger when we want to establish which "original scripts" we are talking about. But I am not going to make things more difficult then they are.

I would say just this. Man made translations with different understanding and objective in mind. The "little horn" did its lion share in corupting the scriptures to promote itself as a ruler of the world. Others objected and swayed things their way.

Josh, don't be mad with me. Don't take what I say for granted. You will find more in your future study.

I am going to pause on the issue of Melchisedek as I am unable to offer more light on this topick.

We can only speculate how God communed with Adam. If you know that it was on the same principle as communion with Abraham than I am fine with it. God manifests Himself in different ways. One of these is by His Spirit, another by His angels, yet another by man. If this is what you mean than you are correct. God met with Abraham by the oak of Mamre. Yet this was God's manifeststion and not God Himselve as we see in 1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Concerning satan, hope pagie will forgive, I have to disagree that he was an angel and so on. I delt with this a little in "THE WILL OF GOD". I would appreciate if you could go thruogh it and give your comment there.

May Peace of God be with you all

jerrywlo · Jan 13, 2009

I am comfortable to go alone with pagie on the issue of tithing. If we tithe because we have to do it we put ourselves under the law. To observe commandments was the prescription of the law. One have to observe all of it. One sin, and who doesn't sin?, makes one cursed because there is no sin forgivenes under the law any more.

Under the N.T. covenant we are freed from the observance of the law as well as it's curses. The Holy Spirit guides the children of God "into all truth":
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak:
and he will shew you things to come.

Anyone who is persuaded in his heart, guided by the H.S, to tithe he is fine. But if he tithes because he follows a commandment he is wrong.

May Peace of God be with you all

pagie · Jan 15, 2009

yes I agree that alltogether I dissagree with tithing though if some one tithes to God because he believes he must then I think he should do as his concience persuades him to do, if they think that the evidence to tithe is trustworthy they must do it or else they will come under a curse yet I believe this is still puting them selves under the Law that condemns all man cind unless they fullfill it to the full. it would not be logical though for someone to follow something that they deem as untrustworthy since the evidences say to them otherwise. so for him who tithes I believe he believes he dose good though I beg to differ, for him who dose not tithe he should give out of the freedom he has with christ because he believes this is the way God has made it, though still I dont see how those who tithe believe that the overwelming evidences we have in scripture abouth tithing say we should do so

Josh · Jan 15, 2009

Satan was an Angle
He was thrown out and had a third part of angels went with him.

II Corinths 11: 14 says
"And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

Rev 12: 9
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

jerrywlo · Jan 15, 2009

Tithing may give us false peace of mind because we have done our duty. This money may be used for dubious things. Yet what counts is this:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

May peace of God be with you all

NoahsDad · Jan 15, 2009

FINALLY i AGREE WITH jERRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!yAAAAAAAAAAAAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PRAISE GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!GOD IS TRUELY AN AWESOME FATHER AND ANSWERS PRAYER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

ryan7477 · Mar 2, 2010

pagie said:

alll you do is misquote scripture. now i agree 99% of churches are in apostasy and not worthy of tithe. but it is simple not tithing is robbing GOD and stealing is breaking the commandments(law) for sin is the transgression of the law and the wages of sin is death.

pagie · Mar 3, 2010

well if you think I miss quote scripture I cant do anything about that im sorry you will think what you like. acctualy I really dont care what anyone else thinks either but if you think its so plain and simple tithe away.
you think that I think I miss quote? or what, is that all I do REALLY wow say what you want im sure it means allot to you.
this is what I believe so if you have nothing good to say WHY BOTHER

phil36 · Mar 3, 2010

pagie said:

Hi pagie,

I personally believe we are not under a command to tithe, yet that does negate giving from the heart. I think if you have money to give, give it.

But God does not want your money because of a command, its a matter of the heart. what we have to remember is that He gave us it in the first place, everything is His.

The one big problem we have in our time, is the mentality of, you sow money to reap. in other words preachers espousing that if you sow you will receive 10 fold.. that is rediculous, God will surely bless you, but maybe not in this life. this sort of teaching leads to giving with the wrong heart, you then begin to give only for the reason of expecting a bigger gift back. That's Wrong!

anyhow, you are not commanded as a Christian to tithe, but I think we have a moral obligation to give, if we have it to give. and most of us in the west have it! to me it is not the amount it is the reason why you are giving it. so you do not have to think about 10% then above, thats nearly legalistic.. give from the heart because you love.

Kind regards

Phil

shad · Mar 3, 2010

ryan7477 said:

If you are convinced that 99% of all churches are apostate and not worthy of your tithes, perhaps this discernment that you have been given is a call from God to plant a church and begin a ministry that you can deem worthy of your tithes and offerings. Those that are convinced the same as you can attend your ministry and give confidently to a worthy ministry.

If you be so kind, please demonstrate the kind of church and the work of that ministry that would be worthy of your tithes and offering. What would your church be like that we could recognize that it is from God and worthy of our tithes and offerings?

mpaper345 · Mar 3, 2010

The truth about tithes.

The New Testament says whatever a person purposes in their own heart to give let them give that.
That means whatever a person wants to give is up to them and no Preacher or other person can tell them what to give.

But this is talking about offerings not tithes.

In the Old Testament there was a king of Salem Melchizedek who was the priest of the most high God.
Some nations took Abram's brother's son Lot and all his goods so Abram went to war with them and took back Lot and all his goods and took the nations goods and gave a tenth of all the goods to Melchizedek the priest of the most high God.

The New Testament said God called Jesus to be a High Priest after the order of Melchizedek.
If Jesus is called of God to be a High Priest patterned after Melchizedek and Abram gave a tenth to Melchizedek then we should give a tenth to the Church because Jesus is made after the order of Melchizedek which means Abram honored Melchizedek as the priest of the most high God so we should honor Jesus and give Him a tenth because He is called of God to be patterned after the life of Melchizedek.

We have to give tithes because that is the way the Church keeps operating and every Christian has to be part of it and do their share but that money is for the preachers needs and no more for the preacher and all the rest of the money is for the ministry and helping people.

The world is not going to give us free materials to build Churches,pay the electrical,gas and water and other things associated with it.The world is not going to take care of the Preacher's needs.The world is not going to give us money to feed people,clothe people and to take care of people's needs because the world is selfish and arrogant and does not believe.There might be a few acceptions of people who do not believe but still believes the Church does good for people but not enough.
we have to give tithes and God is being fair by saying all give a tenth and not demanding more from one person to the next.
When it comes to offerings God said you can give whatever you want and nobody can say how much you have to give.

Matt

shad · Mar 3, 2010

To the others,

If you do not believe that tithing from your income is for the NT church then you must have some good illustrations from the NT scriptures that instructs believers on how to give to the church. There are not many of these illustrations but we do have a few. One was illustrated by our Lord Jesus Christ in Mk 12:41-44 concerning those that gave into the treasury. Many gave of their abundance but the widow gave all that she had, all of her living and she was the one who was commended by the Lord. Isn't that interesting?

In Acts 2:42-47 the people that were newly saved (about 3,000) sold their possessions and goods and parted to all men as they had need. They did not do this as independent believers but did this in one accord in the temple as they continued in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, breaking of bread and in prayer and God added to the church such as should be saved. Example of a NT church that utilized the temple. That looks like a little more that just a 10% tithe and they must have done so cheerfully because they had all things in common and did it together / verse 44.

I kind of hate to mention this but in Acts 5 there was this married couple that sold a possession but had kept back part of the price and because they lied to the Holy Spirit about it they both ended up dying. They did not seem to be a very cheerful giving couple. Notice verse (4) and what Peter had to say. Looks like we have another NT illustration of people selling their possessions. Do you know anyone that is saved and loves God, with a local assembly, who actually sold their possessions and turned the proceeds over to the church? It looks like that's what they were doing. Have any of you come close to doing that, it is the NT church that we are talking about? Many of you believe in practicing the gifts of the Spirit, do you also believe in given this way to the church, perhaps calling it 'Spirit giving'? Those that don't believe in giving tithes don't want to give it over because it doesn't fit there budget or they don't trust the ones they are giving it to or maybe they just don't trust God.

There's a couple other illustrations but I will leave it there. By the looks of these, it was alot more then a 10% tithe they were giving to the church. But let's be practical, we are believers of the 21 century and we don't do things like that. If our pastor asked us to sell some of our possessions because there were people that had great need, we would suggest a fundraiser or probably leave the church and say something like, 'Who is this man to ask us to sacrifice our possessions for the benefit of another who is our brother in Christ ... Let them be warmed and filled and send them on their way.' Is that having all things in common? What kind of NT giving to you practice?

Dare we risk giving as the widow did of all her substance? Was she being realistic? If anyone needed to keep what they had she did, but she gave it all, what possessed her to do such a thing, how was she going to pay her bills and risk getting bad credit? Maybe this 10% tithe thing (off the top of our gross income) with some offerings on the side is not so bad after all. Maybe God knows what He is doing. Maybe some of you should give up that fishing trip or that new car you don't really need and give the money to your church so they can meet the need of those who have nothing. Make sure that is over and above your 10% tithe, if you believe that, and if you don't believe that, make sure you give more than 10%, make sure you do it cheerfully and don't lie about it either. And BTW not of it belongs to you to begin with. God gave it all to you to see your stewardship and to your obedience to the faith. God gives and God takes away / Lk 16:3, Job 1:21. Give and it shall be given... / Lk 6:38.

MahogonySnail · Mar 3, 2010

In bible times if a church was poor, they did not fleece their church for more money (because the church IS the poor people), another richer church sent them a gift or support. That's why I don't give to poor churches, I expect another nearby richer church to take up the slack. And if they don't they are probably already about to be condemned by God so I don't give to that rich church either.

phil36 · Mar 3, 2010

shad said:

To the others,

If you do not believe that tithing from your income is for the NT church then you must have some good illustrations from the NT scriptures that instructs believers on how to give to the church. There are not many of these illustrations but we do have a few. One was illustrated by our Lord Jesus Christ in Mk 12:41-44 concerning those that gave into the treasury. Many gave of their abundance but the widow gave all that she had, all of her living and she was the one who was commended by the Lord. Isn't that interesting?

In Acts 2:42-47 the people that were newly saved (about 3,000) sold their possessions and goods and parted to all men as they had need. They did not do this as independent believers but did this in one accord in the temple as they continued in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, breaking of bread and in prayer and God added to the church such as should be saved. Example of a NT church that utilized the temple. That looks like a little more that just a 10% tithe and they must have done so cheerfully because they had all things in common and did it together / verse 44.

I kind of hate to mention this but in Acts 5 there was this married couple that sold a possession but had kept back part of the price and because they lied to the Holy Spirit about it they both ended up dying. They did not seem to be a very cheerful giving couple. Notice verse (4) and what Peter had to say. Looks like we have another NT illustration of people selling their possessions. Do you know anyone that is saved and loves God, with a local assembly, who actually sold their possessions and turned the proceeds over to the church? It looks like that's what they were doing. Have any of you come close to doing that, it is the NT church that we are talking about? Many of you believe in practicing the gifts of the Spirit, do you also believe in given this way to the church, perhaps calling it 'Spirit giving'? Those that don't believe in giving tithes don't want to give it over because it doesn't fit there budget or they don't trust the ones they are giving it to or maybe they just don't trust God.

There's a couple other illustrations but I will leave it there. By the looks of these, it was alot more then a 10% tithe they were giving to the church. But let's be practical, we are believers of the 21 century and we don't do things like that. If our pastor asked us to sell some of our possessions because there were people that had great need, we would suggest a fundraiser or probably leave the church and say something like, 'Who is this man to ask us to sacrifice our possessions for the benefit of another who is our brother in Christ ... Let them be warmed and filled and send them on their way.' Is that having all things in common? What kind of NT giving to you practice?

Dare we risk giving as the widow did of all her substance? Was she being realistic? If anyone needed to keep what they had she did, but she gave it all, what possessed her to do such a thing, how was she going to pay her bills and risk getting bad credit? Maybe this 10% tithe thing (off the top of our gross income) with some offerings on the side is not so bad after all. Maybe God knows what He is doing. Maybe some of you should give up that fishing trip or that new car you don't really need and give the money to your church so they can meet the need of those who have nothing. Make sure that is over and above your 10% tithe, if you believe that, and if you don't believe that, make sure you give more than 10%, make sure you do it cheerfully and don't lie about it either. And BTW not of it belongs to you to begin with. God gave it all to you to see your stewardship and to your obedience to the faith. God gives and God takes away / Lk 16:3, Job 1:21. Give and it shall be given... / Lk 6:38.

shad,

I understand how people still think we need to (as a command) tithe, However, it is misguided. The law has been fulfilled in Christ our Lord and Saviour. We, instead of bowing under the curse of the Law are free in Christ from its curse. The Spirit in us produces the fruit of the Law (there is a huge huge difference.)!!!! That's Paul's whole argument in Galatians against the Judaizers.

No one is saying you should not give, to say that shad is a misrepresentation to bolster your own argument!

If our hearts are right we will give gladly to the church to the needy etc, but there is no command to do it.

It is a matter of the heart.

Phil

shad · Mar 3, 2010

phil36 said:

If you are going to get your instructions about giving from the NT covenant that we have from the scriptures, then you have to deal with what the scriptures teach and what they illustrate. You have not dealt with the NT illustrations. What do you have to say to these? Are they untrustworthy and have they no place in your faith or are you going to adjust your giving based upon what the scriptures teach? Right now you can give whatever you want, to whomever you want in whatever fashion you choose to give. The illustrations in the NT scriptures do not teach that kind of giving.

MahogonySnail · Mar 3, 2010

"Jesus tithed for me so I don't have to"

lol.

phil36 · Mar 3, 2010

shad said:

Shad, I couldn't disagree more with you. and I really don't know what illustrations you think demonstrate the need to follow a command to Tithe, but there are numerous that show we live in the Spirit the law is in our hearts, we produce fruit through the power of the Spirit in love.

I'll give you a reminder Jer 31:31-33, just a reminder.

The Sinaitic covenant is over, finished..

Anyhow Shad, your not going to stop giving following a command from Sinai and I won't stop giving from the heart.

Phil

shad · Mar 3, 2010

phil36 said:

You need to reread post #73, the first line gives you the premise and setting. If you do not believe in tithing then you must except the NT illustrations upon giving. In that post were some of the NT illustrations given. What are the NT scriptures and illustrations you base your giving upon?

phil36 · Mar 3, 2010

Shad,

The small but very important narrative of the widows coin, has been misused by many.

Please put into its correct context, Luke gives us the fuller picture, it is right in the middle of Jesus condemning the Leaders in Jerusalem, from ch 20 through to ch 21. what is going on in these chapters?

in fact read from Ch 20:45 - 21:4, now shad I have narrowed it down for you to these handful of verses?

Now what is the content of the next section?

Jesus utters the widows coin right in the middle of warnings and judgements, the widows heart was right, it had nothing to do with the tithe, it was the fact that the widow gave from all that she had,.

Now still on the widows coin, the people in this narrative where Israelites/Jews still following the commands of the law, still under its burden.

now show me the illustrations you where talking about shad..?

Phil

giving principles in 2 cor 8 & 9 superior to tithing

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