Goal or Gateway ? Empowering of the Holy Spirit

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
17,227
1,742
113
#61
This is wrong. We receive the Holy Spirit as a gift from God. The Holy Spirit is to comfort and encourage us as we witness and testify of Christ. The resurrection is the evidence of our hope.

God has declared that He is using the foolishness of to present the gospel not signs and wonders.

Testimonies for Christ are refined in the fires of adversity. Are we not the suffer for Christs namesake? We do not lord over sinners with mystical powers but we testify through adversity and suffering just as Christ suffered.

This thread started with a false premise and a calculated goal which is a gateway to discord.

2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I agree that the resurrection is not why we have use and work through the holy spirit especially for signs and wonders. The holy spirit is given to strenghten encourage build up enforce heal mend and for both us and the rest of the church. If any signs or wonders are done if it is not to edify and build the church then it is meaningless and thus has no power. I believe in signs and wonders but more importantly I believe in the motive and reason for it. Whether or not we ever get to see and do them is up to God but I believe that only when one knows and understands the reason and purpose for it and writes that on their heart will they ever see and do these things.
As with everything in both life and faith it begins and ends with the heart
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
27,412
4,682
113
#62
As a goal,


A person receives the Baptism in the Holy Spirit and goes no further. They Speak in tongues and pray in tongues and nothing more. They have reached the goal. Is that what the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is for? To achieve and nothing More?

As a Gateway


A person receives the baptism in the Holy Spirit , speaks in tongues, prays in tongues, prophesy, lay hands on the sick, prays for the sick, brings a word of knowledge, word of wisdom, works miracles, gift of faith discerning of spirits and more than just the Goal of what some thing is just "speaking in Tongues." They lead people to Christ. People are set free and healed and much more.
Certainly my belief is that the Holy Spirits indwelling presence is the very essence of God dwelling within us, so not sure it fits either of your examples........but probably gateway more closely.

Now, one thing, NOT ALL who receive the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit speak in tongues...........that is JUST ONE of the gifts of the Spirit, and Paul listed it last, and even said he desired much more to prophesy....... Which is why I say probably gateway more closely.........

I'm not sure that either truly represent the wondrous experience of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit......


Enjoyed reading your Post
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
7,308
2,086
113
#63
Certainly my belief is that the Holy Spirits indwelling presence is the very essence of God dwelling within us, so not sure it fits either of your examples........but probably gateway more closely.

Now, one thing, NOT ALL who receive the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit speak in tongues...........that is JUST ONE of the gifts of the Spirit, and Paul listed it last, and even said he desired much more to prophesy....... Which is why I say probably gateway more closely.........

I'm not sure that either truly represent the wondrous experience of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit......


Enjoyed reading your Post

the debate on initial evidence of one who has been Baptized in the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues or prophesying. The listing is not the order of precedence. The gifts of the Holy Spirit flow through the believer who has already been baptized in the Holy Spirit.
Thank you for your input :)
 
L

lenna

Guest
#64
That is true I without cameras showing all the important parts of the movie and all the things you see from third person. Honestly I wish I could see my life lin third person I bet I would learn a lot about myself and but then again more often than not I would be slapping forehead saying Idiot:LOL:

23 Search me, God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts.
24 See if there is any offensive way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.

Psalm 139:23-24
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
17,227
1,742
113
#65
23 Search me, God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts.
24 See if there is any offensive way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.

Psalm 139:23-24
Honestly it is like David knows me. Psalms is my favorite book in the bible David and I are so similar in many ways even in the way we worship God with our writing's.
I wonder sometimes though if perhaps I search myself to much or maybe I just do it with the wrong kind of eyes.
I always search my heart even when I mess up and show pride or boast or am to outspoken but he issue I think is I only know how to see the worst of myself and that is all I see.

I know I struggle with depression and have always had a low view of myself but I don't think this is how God wants me to see myself and I don't think he sees what I see.It'd hard and exhausting only seeing yourself like this and I know many others struggle with this as well.
 
L

lenna

Guest
#66
Honestly it is like David knows me. Psalms is my favorite book in the bible David and I are so similar in many ways even in the way we worship God with our writing's.
I wonder sometimes though if perhaps I search myself to much or maybe I just do it with the wrong kind of eyes.
I always search my heart even when I mess up and show pride or boast or am to outspoken but he issue I think is I only know how to see the worst of myself and that is all I see.

I know I struggle with depression and have always had a low view of myself but I don't think this is how God wants me to see myself and I don't think he sees what I see.It'd hard and exhausting only seeing yourself like this and I know many others struggle with this as well.
We need to see ourselves as Jesus sees us. We need the view of who Paul tells us we are. I used to be down on myself and have said plenty of negative words to myself about myself but when God mercifully put some good books into my hands, books based on scripture, I came to see that I should not be doing that but rather should believe and counter that negative feedback loup with scripture.

I think you should allow the Holy Spirit to speak peace to your heart and be uplifted in your spirit. As I tended to be too introspective and sensitive myself when younger, I understand a bit where you are coming from. God brought me out of myself to quite an extent when I became aware of just how self negative I was being.

And this should bring us to rejoicing in our Savior and not being proud. It is all really all about Jesus. :giggle:
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
17,227
1,742
113
#69
We need to see ourselves as Jesus sees us. We need the view of who Paul tells us we are. I used to be down on myself and have said plenty of negative words to myself about myself but when God mercifully put some good books into my hands, books based on scripture, I came to see that I should not be doing that but rather should believe and counter that negative feedback loup with scripture.

I think you should allow the Holy Spirit to speak peace to your heart and be uplifted in your spirit. As I tended to be too introspective and sensitive myself when younger, I understand a bit where you are coming from. God brought me out of myself to quite an extent when I became aware of just how self negative I was being.

And this should bring us to rejoicing in our Savior and not being proud. It is all really all about Jesus. :giggle:
I have been praying about it I am tired of seeing myself in this way and I want to see what he sees not what I think or feel or believe but I just don't know how.
I suppose one of my greatest weaknesses is how I see myself and some may see it as being humble but there is a difference in being humble and just beating yourself up
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#70
...Yet Covid-19 continue to be around, it must be the lack of faith in the church er?
I am sure there are untold thousands that have been healed of COVID 19 as a direct result of the prayer of faith and there is no way you can prove otherwise. My statement is far more likely than to say that none of them were healed as a direct result of prayer.

The believers in the 1st century prayed for and saw many healed of diseases, and yet disease was still around. They saw many blind healed and yet blindness was still around. They even raised some from the dead and yet death was still around. Does that mean they did not have enough faith. Why must people not getting healed equate to NOBODY getting healed? It was not that way in the Bible and it is not that way today. Some are healed others are not, but we don't quit praying and believing for divine healing.

If a church that believes in faith for divine healing as written in the bible is still available today, closes their doors over COVID 19 it does not mean they do not have faith for healing. We do our part to not spread infection first. If after that someone still gets sick we pray for them and God will heal them and he is doing so. We have had our Executive presbyter over missions, a District Superindent of my state, and also Don Wilkerson in my fellowship Assemblies of God as examples of elderly men who could have died but were healed by the prayer of faith and are fully recovered. Hallelujah. So what does that say about ENOUGH FAITH?
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,395
113
#71
I am sure there are untold thousands that have been healed of COVID 19 as a direct result of the prayer of faith and there is no way you can prove otherwise. My statement is far more likely than to say that none of them were healed as a direct result of prayer.

The believers in the 1st century prayed for and saw many healed of diseases, and yet disease was still around. They saw many blind healed and yet blindness was still around. They even raised some from the dead and yet death was still around. Does that mean they did not have enough faith. Why must people not getting healed equate to NOBODY getting healed? It was not that way in the Bible and it is not that way today. Some are healed others are not, but we don't quit praying and believing for divine healing.

If a church that believes in faith for divine healing as written in the bible is still available today, closes their doors over COVID 19 it does not mean they do not have faith for healing. We do our part to not spread infection first. If after that someone still gets sick we pray for them and God will heal them and he is doing so. We have had our Executive presbyter over missions, a District Superindent of my state, and also Don Wilkerson in my fellowship Assemblies of God as examples of elderly men who could have died but were healed by the prayer of faith and are fully recovered. Hallelujah. So what does that say about ENOUGH FAITH?
Signs and wonders are meant to be seen and talked about

So if your hypothesis is true, with how social media works nowadays, the news of healers going to quanrantine areas and healing COVID-19 would be all over

So sorry, your argument from silence does not hold water
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,395
113
#72
what is failed is the surrendering to your unbiblical application of the word of God.
What do you think the role of signs and wonders in OT?

Could it be true that your own application is actually the unbiblical one?
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,395
113
#73
As Jesus said to the Apostles, you shall receive power after the Holy Ghost has come upon you. Acts 1:8

He did not say you will be empowered to be My witness after you are saved. I don't know what is going to happen to people who are so against the Holy Spirit.
As you have correctly said, Perhaps the reason some oppose is because we know we are not the apostles?

I mean when God commanded Noah to build an ark, do you regard those instructions as directed to you too?
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#74
Signs and wonders are meant to be seen and talked about

So if your hypothesis is true, with how social media works nowadays, the news of healers going to quanrantine areas and healing COVID-19 would be all over

So sorry, your argument from silence does not hold water
The media has always ignored healings and true miracles. They only focus on bleeding statues of Mary. Everyone knows that!
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#75
As you have correctly said, Perhaps the reason some oppose is because we know we are not the apostles?

I mean when God commanded Noah to build an ark, do you regard those instructions as directed to you too?
All 120 men and women in the Upper Room were endued with power from on high and spoke with tongues. Not just apostles.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,395
113
#76
The media has always ignored healings and true miracles. They only focus on bleeding statues of Mary. Everyone knows that!
Clutching on straws er? You mean someone like Copeland would not specially arrange for a media team if he is really sure he had the sign gift of healing?

Even during the 4 gospels, without internet, so many people were in awe of Jesus signs and wonders
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#77
Even during the 4 gospels, without internet, so many people were in awe of Jesus signs and wonders
Find a piece of burnt toast with an image of Jesus and the media will flock to your door to give it attention. The mob is fickle and their awe or their indifference is no proof or measurement of the authenticity of divine healing, or gifts of the Holy Spirit.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,395
113
#78
Wow that was spot on especially about how my mom acts around everyone and how she really is and how she perceives me but that isn't me. Sadly my family is unaware that I am able to see and know how they percieve me I have always been able to look at things with perspective and because of my nature my disability my issues with needing help doing things they see me as a weak moronic incapable child who needs protecting and cannot do anything on his own my mom even came home drunk one night and said I was the weakest person she knows.

But their wrong they don't know or understand me they never have, I may not have a very high view of myself and I may struggle with depression and low self esteem and yes maybe I need more help doing things and learn much slower than others but I am by no means weak and I am not some incapable moronic child. Is this book free? and if so where can I get it? I would buy it but I only get 40 dollars a week to myself so it might be hard to save up for that but now I really want to read this book
Once you understand that book and similar ones, it will also help when you discuss issues in forums like these.

You will understand that, whenever people directly throw insults at you, you will not take it personally because you know that it is always about them.

Based on how you appear in their movie screen 🤣
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
2,895
670
113
#79
There is an actual list from Polycarp (John's Disciple) to the Church Fathers, all the way to 1900 Azusa where Speaking in Tongues has been active for 2,000 years continually. If you desire, I can post it when I return from my business trip in about 6 hours or so.
This is not the point. I am talking from the doctrine which we found since 1900. That speaking in tongues is the sign/proof that someone is baptised with the Holy Spirit.
This teaching you will not find out of cults. You will find it also not with the churchfathers. If you can Show, then please do it.