Goal or Gateway ? Empowering of the Holy Spirit

[Guojing]

the role of the Holy Spirit I do not like that term but The Spirit of the Living God testifies of the Eternal living God who works in the lives of men. God did signs and wonders in the old Testament Not to show cats and dogs HE is a live HE did to show Man. Jut like in the New Testament

Moses did signs and wonders, if you read the last part of Exodus 4:29-31, so that Israelite's elders who watched will accept that he was sent by God.

Elijah did a sign in front of the captain in 2 Kings 1:10, to prove that he is a man of God.

And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

Later on, in the famous story, he said 1 Kings 18:36, of calling down fire to burn the offering

And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.

Jesus did signs and wonders, as stated in John 20:30-31, as well as many other parts of John, so that Israel may believe that he was indeed the promised Son of God.

You begin to see a pattern there?

So now, if you believe that signs and wonders are still for today, who is doing signs and wonders now around the world to prove that he is a man of God or sent by God?

 

[CS1]

Moses did signs and wonders, if you read the last part of Exodus 4:29-31, so that Israelite's elders who watched will accept that he was sent by God.

Elijah did a sign in front of the captain in 2 Kings 1:10, to prove that he is a man of God.

And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

Later on, in the famous story, he said 1 Kings 18:36, of calling down fire to burn the offering

And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.

Jesus did signs and wonders, as stated in John 20:30-31, as well as many other parts of John, so that Israel may believe that he was indeed the promised Son of God.

You begin to see a pattern there?

So now, if you believe that signs and wonders are still for today, who is doing signs and wonders now around the world to prove that he is a man of God or sent by God?[/QUOTE


Yep God is still doing signs and wonders and they are for today your point has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit and the Baptism in the Holy Spirit which Jesus said we would receive power to be witness. You are trying to take out of Context the reason for the Baptism in the Holy Spirit . The only pattern I see IS God working in the lives of men and women in both the Old and New Testament.

 

[CS1]

in between the signs and the wonders, if you do not walk by faith (believing it is the right thing to do and continuing on even with no sign at that time or leading) you might fall away from God and into sin (missing the mark) and it can be hard to get back.


…37For, “In just a little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay. 38But My righteous one will live by faith; and if he shrinks back, I will take no pleasure in him.” 39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.…

not continuing to walk in faith destroys our walk in Christ for a time, but continuing in faith to follow God perserves the right spirit in us (at that time that we walk in faith, not in the future).


Hab. 2:4 "... but the just shall live by his faith." (NKJ)

amen

that is why I had the contrast between a goal or gateway.
many times christian achieve a goal in their christian walk an think they have made it. Nothing more God is looking to take us deeper and use us more. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit as Jesus said is power to be a witness. We are to witness to the Risen Lord and Savior.

 

[Mii]

Moses did signs and wonders, if you read the last part of Exodus 4:29-31, so that Israelite's elders who watched will accept that he was sent by God.

Elijah did a sign in front of the captain in 2 Kings 1:10, to prove that he is a man of God.

And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

Later on, in the famous story, he said 1 Kings 18:36, of calling down fire to burn the offering

And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.

Jesus did signs and wonders, as stated in John 20:30-31, as well as many other parts of John, so that Israel may believe that he was indeed the promised Son of God.

You begin to see a pattern there?

So now, if you believe that signs and wonders are still for today, who is doing signs and wonders now around the world to prove that he is a man of God or sent by God?

This is a bit jumbled...it's a difficult topic, but if any area speaks to you and encourages withholding judgement and not coming against those that have faith in a way that you may need something that they have been blessed to not have need of. Awesome This is something I wrestle with myself. Keeping a neutral perspective (with openness) is where I sit in regard to the plethora of information on this topic.



Have you not heard many anecdotal stories of such occurring? I've only heard one from someone that I would trust enough for it to give me pause. Almost all of these are done privately...

I won't share his story, but he can if he cares to someday and maybe I will direct him to this site. I've heard plenty that feel like truth to me, and plenty that I am quite suspicious of.

For myself personally, it's kind of like a barometer. Is this preacher legit? Is this testimony legit? Did that really happen?

Many times it fits into two categories in my own heart.

I don't bring up false signs and wonders as evidence against the Lord moving this way. The enemy is not idle and neither is the Lord.


Another factor is of course cameras, and people "wanting" to "prove" God/miracles. My experience has been, when people start recording, things turn down. It's almost a symptom of unbelief. Analyze that a bit if you would. How would a camera change things? Not just for you, but try to anticipate others motivations.

Note Jesus' experience in Nazareth during his ministry.

There is obviously a lot more technology that delves into the esoteric, which is probably calculated from forces of darkness with a blip here and a blip there. I don't chase stuff like that.

let's say I witness a miraculous healing and even if I am convinced to the bottom of my heart...still. Trust and faith go hand in hand. Am I going to bring a camera crew in (like when the record people in tears praising the Lord) and make certain to document as fully as possible and have a doctor say it doesn't make any sense but that yes something occurred...Ah, but then we cannot prove how it occurred and the response to a lot of these healings in the medical field is..."There's still a lot we don't know about the body, diseases, etc. etc."

Look at a good few miracles in scripture. A fair number of them were actually "eyes only". Very rarely were they done in front of a large group of people. The feeding of the 5,000 was a bit different because it may have been easily missed by many what actually occurred.

Even the healing of the man in John 9:1-3...they had to bring it to a committee to even confirm that it even happened and they still didn't believe. The disciples, the man himself and the parents knew for certain and that may have been all.

Notice the water into wine and "how" it occurred?

Contrast that with the temptation of turning stones to bread.

You could have the signs and miracles that followed the apostles and you would still have to have faith...it is NOT sight. You still have to have faith that he is who he says he is. You still have to have faith in his promises. You still have to have faith that all this agony is for a reason. That reason is Jesus, but what that means each person has to figure out for themselves.


I'm not sure what you believe but start in Revelation 10 and keep reading for a chapter or so. See how that purpose appears to be different from our witness?

There is a lot to discuss regarding this, but I have no doubt that God can choose super private moments that still leave room for doubts because...without faith it is impossible to please him.

 

[Scribe]

Moses did signs and wonders, if you read the last part of Exodus 4:29-31, so that Israelite's elders who watched will accept that he was sent by God.

Elijah did a sign in front of the captain in 2 Kings 1:10, to prove that he is a man of God.

And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

Later on, in the famous story, he said 1 Kings 18:36, of calling down fire to burn the offering

And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.

Jesus did signs and wonders, as stated in John 20:30-31, as well as many other parts of John, so that Israel may believe that he was indeed the promised Son of God.

You begin to see a pattern there?

So now, if you believe that signs and wonders are still for today, who is doing signs and wonders now around the world to prove that he is a man of God or sent by God?

Mark 16:
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Are you a believer? All you have to do to qualify is to be a BELIEVER. If you do not believe signs will follow you as you preach and minister the Gospel as you go forth and fulfil the great commission, then they will not. These signs only follow believers.

If you do not think that signs have followed believers in modern times you are in denial of it when it has been reported and recorded. You say "where is it?" and yet you can read about it from testimonies in missionary and evangelist stories all over the world. There are medical documents that you can read from Doctors saying they do not have a medical explanation as to why a tumor disappeared when a patient had believers lay hands on her a day before surgery was scheduled. Doctors who say "we have medical proof and biopsies and know that we did not misdiagnose the patient. They had a tumor three days before the surgery and now they do not". These documents exist all over the world and when an unbeliever reads the documents they say they are fake. They will not believe even if one rose from the dead.
Nevertheless these signs follow believers so that the unbelievers will have no excuse on the day of judgment. This is the biblical concept many fail to grasp. They misinterpret the Isaiah verse about tongues. In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. However in the day of judgment they will have no excuse for their hard hearts. They will not be able to say. "Why didn't you do a miracle so we could believe? You could have done something really awesome like give people the gift of tongues?... Oh.. you did that did you?"

I will not go through all the scriptures on it right now, I want to make sure I have an open ear first. However there is a truth stream in the scriptures concerning the miraculous signs being given not because people WILL believe as a result but because they will not have an excuse for NOT believing. They are not supposed to put their faith in supernatural manifestations. The supernatural manifestations are simply that. A manifestation of the power of the Kingdom of God that has come among them. They declare that there is a kingdom coming where there is no sickness this healing is a manifestation that Jesus Kingdom has power and authority over the kingdom of satan, sickness and death. There is a day coming when ALL SICKNESS will be vanquished. Meanwhile there are times in the right now when faith demonstrates that that Kingdom has come nigh unto you. And it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorroh in the day of judgment than for those people who have seen the supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit and still refuse to believe. However That IS what is going to happen. They WILL NOT believe. (for all that they will not hear me) That has already been made clear in the word. And yet they will have no excuse in the day of judgment. This is what he means when he says With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me. I have heard this passage quoted often from those who are adamantly opposed to any authenticity of tongues in the church today and their interpretation is a wild and incomprehensible stab at trying to make it look like God gave the CURSE of speaking in tongues rather than the GIFT of speaking in tongues. They do not understand the quote from Isaiah spoken by Paul in 1 Cor 14 and they really butcher it quite roughly. The UNBELIEVER will not believe even though God gives the gift of tongues to his Church but be assured of this the Unbeliever will have no excuse in the day of judgment for their unbelief because God most assuredly did manifest this gift to the church just as it was prophesied that he would.

 

[wolfwint]

look it up it has been posted you are so Biblically sound you should know where it is. Troll is what you have become.

Acts is not teaching other believers, its reporting the history of the Apostles and the church in the First around 35 years. So you cant show me. Instead you accuse me to be a Troll.

 

[Scribe]

Acts is not teaching other believers, its reporting the history of the Apostles and the church in the First around 35 years. So you cant show me. Instead you accuse me to be a Troll.

Most evangelical protestant theologians today are no longer saying that about Acts. It was once commonly spoken that Acts was an historical writing only and not meant for doctrine. This has now been suficiently proven wrong and a clear case made for Luke being a theologian in his own rights with a theological intent behind what he chose to record in Acts and the Gospel of Luke both. Even in his introduction to Acts he makes it very clear that he has well planned agenda in what he expects the writings to accomplish.

Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; 3It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, 4That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Now it would take more than 1000 words to present and persuade you in this posting that Acts was meant for doctrine as well as any other book but for now I will simply point you to two proofs. 1) This verse:

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [a]instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

And 2) these theologians below who are known today has having done ground breaking work in proving that Luke had a doctrinal intent in what and how he recorded events in the book of Acts. Their works are discussed frequently by other theologians both for and against their conclusions in the area of Lucan Pneumentology. Whether you agree with their views or not (and I think you will) they have made most scholars today stop saying that Acts is just a historical writing. Most now know that was definitely not Luke's only intention and those that still say that are considered behind the times in new information.

William and Robert Menzies "Spirit and Power" and several other titles.
Roger Stronstad "The Charismatic Theology of St. Luke" (one of the better technical works that is convincing non pentecostals theologians to reexamine their interpretations)
Gordon Fee "Gospel and Spirit Issues in New Testament Hermeneutics"

 

[wolfwint]

Yes I am calling you mocker and scoffer and yes a liar too. Because you have lied and you have scoffed an mocked i'm sorry I have told the truth. It was already said many times you do not have to agree, and that is fine, however, you ask repeatedly the same questions that were answered. You don't accept them fine. But that does not mean you are right biblically. I have yet to see you post one Bible verse to support your understanding, not one.

We have quoted Acts chapter 1, 2, 3, 4 and others; we have quoted Peter , Paul and The Lord Jesus . You want media updates and FYI they were given to you but you did not agree I guess then you moved the goal post. I think you are just a troll you have nothing to offer.

Your pride and arrogance is telling. You were shown where the initial evidence that one has been empowered by the Holy Spirit. Each time where it is recorded in the Books Acts those who were Baptized in the Holy Spirit 1. were already saved 2. all spoke in tongues or Prophesied.
again read it :

Acts 2:38
Acts 8
Acts 10 &11
Acts 19

Well, you interprete it as an proof. There is also another way to interprete it simply as it is written as an Sign for the jews ( 8, 10 and 19) that also samaritians, gentiles and also the disciples of John the Baptist are partakers of the Gospel. And not alone the jews.
Creating a doctrine that all believers which receive the Holy Spirit also speaking in tongues is man createt. This teaching you are not find in the churchhistory out of america before 1900.

If you accuse me to be a liar, scoffer and mocker then at least you should show me where I did it. Otherwise its show me that your accuse has the only reason to attack me.
I know many people who attack others personly, when the cant convince them with Arguments. But I would not expect it from an Moderator of an Christian Chat.

 

[Guojing]

Mark 16:
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Are you a believer? All you have to do to qualify is to be a BELIEVER. If you do not believe signs will follow you as you preach and minister the Gospel as you go forth and fulfil the great commission, then they will not. These signs only follow believers.

If you do not think that signs have followed believers in modern times you are in denial of it when it has been reported and recorded. You say "where is it?" and yet you can read about it from testimonies in missionary and evangelist stories all over the world. There are medical documents that you can read from Doctors saying they do not have a medical explanation as to why a tumor disappeared when a patient had believers lay hands on her a day before surgery was scheduled. Doctors who say "we have medical proof and biopsies and know that we did not misdiagnose the patient. They had a tumor three days before the surgery and now they do not". These documents exist all over the world and when an unbeliever reads the documents they say they are fake. They will not believe even if one rose from the dead.
Nevertheless these signs follow believers so that the unbelievers will have no excuse on the day of judgment. This is the biblical concept many fail to grasp. They misinterpret the Isaiah verse about tongues. In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. However in the day of judgment they will have no excuse for their hard hearts. They will not be able to say. "Why didn't you do a miracle so we could believe? You could have done something really awesome like give people the gift of tongues?... Oh.. you did that did you?"

I will not go through all the scriptures on it right now, I want to make sure I have an open ear first. However there is a truth stream in the scriptures concerning the miraculous signs being given not because people WILL believe as a result but because they will not have an excuse for NOT believing. They are not supposed to put their faith in supernatural manifestations. The supernatural manifestations are simply that. A manifestation of the power of the Kingdom of God that has come among them. They declare that there is a kingdom coming where there is no sickness this healing is a manifestation that Jesus Kingdom has power and authority over the kingdom of satan, sickness and death. There is a day coming when ALL SICKNESS will be vanquished. Meanwhile there are times in the right now when faith demonstrates that that Kingdom has come nigh unto you. And it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorroh in the day of judgment than for those people who have seen the supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit and still refuse to believe. However That IS what is going to happen. They WILL NOT believe. (for all that they will not hear me) That has already been made clear in the word. And yet they will have no excuse in the day of judgment. This is what he means when he says With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me. I have heard this passage quoted often from those who are adamantly opposed to any authenticity of tongues in the church today and their interpretation is a wild and incomprehensible stab at trying to make it look like God gave the CURSE of speaking in tongues rather than the GIFT of speaking in tongues. They do not understand the quote from Isaiah spoken by Paul in 1 Cor 14 and they really butcher it quite roughly. The UNBELIEVER will not believe even though God gives the gift of tongues to his Church but be assured of this the Unbeliever will have no excuse in the day of judgment for their unbelief because God most assuredly did manifest this gift to the church just as it was prophesied that he would.

Ahh the controversial last part of Mark that interestingly, to me at least, both Church of Christ and pentecostal christians love it, but only when they can safely ignore the parts they don't like.

For COC, or any other church that believes water baptism is also necessary for salvation, they take Mark 16:16, but ignore the latter verses.

For you now, you ignore Mark 16:16 since most churches will not preach that water baptism is necessary for salvation, but you choose to take Mark 16:17-18 instead.

I will just raise 2 points regarding your particular appplication.

First, as I have said, signs and wonders in the OT, if you carefully examine them was meant for one group of people, the Jews. Paul himself stated clearly that the Jews required a sign. It is not their shortcoming. Ever since Exodus 4, Israel is trained to look for signs whenever someone claim he is sent by God to them.

So if the 12 are to preach the gospel of the kingdom to Israel after Christ ascended to heaven, which they did if you read properly Acts 2-7, signs have to accompany what they preached. Otherwise, Israel has no reason to believe them.

The second point is this, as I have already explained before, the main reason signs and wonders have been put aside for now is that national Israel has rejected their Messiah. Under the current gospel of grace, as Paul would explain to us, we walk by faith and not by sight.

Us Gentiles are not the subject of those verses you used for Mark. Those instructions were specifically for the 12, and specifically for Israel.

 

[jackrosie]

It is nice that I can come in here and share what I shared ,about a vision that God gave me 28yrs......I was in awe of it for weeks after...still am.

Now....if I told a non believer that.....they would think I was mad......thank God I have my brothers and sisters in Christ on this site.

I need feeding.x

 

[lenna]

Most evangelical protestant theologians today are no longer saying that about Acts. It was once commonly spoken that Acts was an historical writing only and not meant for doctrine. This has now been suficiently proven wrong and a clear case made for Luke being a theologian in his own rights with a theological intent behind what he chose to record in Acts and the Gospel of Luke both. Even in his introduction to Acts he makes it very clear that he has well planned agenda in what he expects the writings to accomplish.

Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; 3It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, 4That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Now it would take more than 1000 words to present and persuade you in this posting that Acts was meant for doctrine as well as any other book but for now I will simply point you to two proofs. 1) This verse:

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [a]instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

And 2) these theologians below who are known today has having done ground breaking work in proving that Luke had a doctrinal intent in what and how he recorded events in the book of Acts. Their works are discussed frequently by other theologians both for and against their conclusions in the area of Lucan Pneumentology. Whether you agree with their views or not (and I think you will) they have made most scholars today stop saying that Acts is just a historical writing. Most now know that was definitely not Luke's only intention and those that still say that are considered behind the times in new information.

William and Robert Menzies "Spirit and Power" and several other titles.
Roger Stronstad "The Charismatic Theology of St. Luke" (one of the better technical works that is convincing non pentecostals theologians to reexamine their interpretations)
Gordon Fee "Gospel and Spirit Issues in New Testament Hermeneutics"

Seems obvious, doesn't it? As for mr wolf and mr G, they have repeatedly and often and always done what they are doing in this thread. They are about as sincere as a cat falling in love with a mouse.

Both of them have had all their questions answered mulitple times and mulitple ways and (gasp) even scripture, until you want to hit your head on a wall to make them stop. Obviously, they need a hobby or some other diversion like catching snakes and putting them in bags or what have you.

They are not going to stop and nothing you or anyone else posts will dissuade them from their purpose which appears to be trying to convince the rest of us the Holy Spirit has left town.

All that without prejudice of course.

 

[Guojing]

SMH

What does this acronym of yours mean?

 

[CS1]

This is a bit jumbled...it's a difficult topic, but if any area speaks to you and encourages withholding judgement and not coming against those that have faith in a way that you may need something that they have been blessed to not have need of. Awesome This is something I wrestle with myself. Keeping a neutral perspective (with openness) is where I sit in regard to the plethora of information on this topic.



Have you not heard many anecdotal stories of such occurring? I've only heard one from someone that I would trust enough for it to give me pause. Almost all of these are done privately...

I won't share his story, but he can if he cares to someday and maybe I will direct him to this site. I've heard plenty that feel like truth to me, and plenty that I am quite suspicious of.

For myself personally, it's kind of like a barometer. Is this preacher legit? Is this testimony legit? Did that really happen?

Many times it fits into two categories in my own heart.

I don't bring up false signs and wonders as evidence against the Lord moving this way. The enemy is not idle and neither is the Lord.


Another factor is of course cameras, and people "wanting" to "prove" God/miracles. My experience has been, when people start recording, things turn down. It's almost a symptom of unbelief. Analyze that a bit if you would. How would a camera change things? Not just for you, but try to anticipate others motivations.

Note Jesus' experience in Nazareth during his ministry.

There is obviously a lot more technology that delves into the esoteric, which is probably calculated from forces of darkness with a blip here and a blip there. I don't chase stuff like that.

let's say I witness a miraculous healing and even if I am convinced to the bottom of my heart...still. Trust and faith go hand in hand. Am I going to bring a camera crew in (like when the record people in tears praising the Lord) and make certain to document as fully as possible and have a doctor say it doesn't make any sense but that yes something occurred...Ah, but then we cannot prove how it occurred and the response to a lot of these healings in the medical field is..."There's still a lot we don't know about the body, diseases, etc. etc."

Look at a good few miracles in scripture. A fair number of them were actually "eyes only". Very rarely were they done in front of a large group of people. The feeding of the 5,000 was a bit different because it may have been easily missed by many what actually occurred.

Even the healing of the man in John 9:1-3...they had to bring it to a committee to even confirm that it even happened and they still didn't believe. The disciples, the man himself and the parents knew for certain and that may have been all.

Notice the water into wine and "how" it occurred?

Contrast that with the temptation of turning stones to bread.

You could have the signs and miracles that followed the apostles and you would still have to have faith...it is NOT sight. You still have to have faith that he is who he says he is. You still have to have faith in his promises. You still have to have faith that all this agony is for a reason. That reason is Jesus, but what that means each person has to figure out for themselves.


I'm not sure what you believe but start in Revelation 10 and keep reading for a chapter or so. See how that purpose appears to be different from our witness?

There is a lot to discuss regarding this, but I have no doubt that God can choose super private moments that still leave room for doubts because...without faith it is impossible to please him.

There have been some who have tried to take my Thread in a different direction. I have placed those who mock and scoff or ask the same question after it has been answered already.

Signs and wonder trigger faith it is what causes many to come and see Jesus. IF Jesus used them because HE was touched by our pain and suffering surely the Apostles felt the same thing?

If Jesus used signs and wonders and the Apostles did and others we read in the Word of God, why is it not for us also?

Jesus said You shall receive power after the Holy Spirit has come upon you and you shall be my witnesses. Are we not to receive power as did the Apostles? and did the house of Cornelius ? as did the disciple's Paul met in Ephesus? There are those who will see and still will not believe Jesus said to shake off the dust and keep going.

Those who want to explain how a sign or wonder happened is mainly to disprove God. Science does not call many sicknesses that are described in the word of God as a devil or demon. Was Jesus wrong when HE called them devils?
Yet Human reasoning and many Christian will have you believe Jesus was wrong because HE did have what we have today to show why mental disorder happens. The same Christian will tell you that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not needed because the Bible was made. Your or mine human intellect does not win people to the Lord. God has chosen to use foolish things in man's opinion to confound the wise human understanding

WE preach a Risen Lord that is a GREAT miracle and Jesus said we are to testify to the death, burial, and resurrection
We serve a Jesus who is alive, not dead. Resurrection power the Holy Spirit still moves on people to Testify that Jesus is still healing, still saving, still delivering. The empowerment of the Holy Spirit is a gateway to witnessing Jesus has risen and is alive. The Holy Spirit makes alive, gives liberty, and leads us and guides us into all truth and speaks of Jesus and confirms the word with Signs & wonders.

That has not changed even with the foolishness on TV, even with those who teach it is not for today. God is still moving. I hear all the time those Pharisees in here say " what is it not on the news prove it " I remind you they said the same things to Jesus and while He was on the Cross too.
Remember Jesus

• fed 5000 then they left him
• went to a town where HE could no mighty work there because of unbelief Jesus wanted to but could not
• the Apostles healed and still went to jail, they performed mighty miracles yet were stoned and beaten
• many in church history suffered the same. and did the same too. and continue to do so.

 

[Blain]

I think there is a difference in signs and wonders and him operating through us to some people. Now do I think I can turn water into wine? if God wills it yes but what purpose would it serve? For me signs and wonders are miracles he produces through us via the holy spirit but it is not for our sake or simply to show off his power that is not how he operates he always does what he does for the sake of others.
I do not have the ability to lay on hands and heal but he uses me for inner healings which actually suites me better as I am more concerned about inner wounds of a person, And I cannot tell this mountain to move and it moves not because I lack the faith but because as one learns how to walk with the spirit they learn there is a time and place for everything.

We can perform signs and wonders but it has to be in his timing and according to his will we walk with the spirit not front of him. We don't see many signs and wonders these days and it can be argued it is because people lack faith and perhaps to a point that is true but I think really we don't see many of them because he always does things when they are needed and in his appointed time.

There will come a day when we see these things abundant but even as dark and as sad as this world is right now he still doesn't operate in this way very much and again I think that is because it is not the appointed time.

 

[CS1]

1. I think there is a difference in signs and wonders and him operating through us to some people. Now do I think I can turn water into wine? if God wills it yes but what purpose would it serve? For me signs and wonders are miracles he produces through us via the holy spirit but it is not for our sake or simply to show off his power that is not how he operates he always does what he does for the sake of others.

I do not have the ability to lay on hands and heal but he uses me for inner healings which actually suites me better as I am more concerned about inner wounds of a person, And I cannot tell this mountain to move and it moves not because I lack the faith but because as one learns how to walk with the spirit they learn there is a time and place for everything.

We can perform signs and wonders but it has to be in his timing and according to his will we walk with the spirit not front of him. We don't see many signs and wonders these days and it can be argued it is because people lack faith and perhaps to a point that is true but I think really we don't see many of them because he always does things when they are needed and in his appointed time.

There will come a day when we see these things abundant but even as dark and as sad as this world is right now he still doesn't operate in this way very much and again I think that is because it is not the appointed time.

You make a good point and I will try to address it of what is God's will and what is His doing in the word of Of that should not necessarily be done.


Normative vs Descriptive.

A normative in the word of God is something we see as a constant through the word of God example:

1. healing
2. salvation
3. deliverance
4. restoration
5. provision
6. forgiveness
7. Eternal life

Now the Lord God is the God who heals, it is His part of His divine Nature amen?

Jesus healed all that were sick when they came to HIM. YET we know Healing is normative in the word of God because:
God healed, Prophets were used to heal, Jesus healed, and the Apostles healed and the church has healing today.

Jesus healed many who were blind Yet HE did not spit and make mud to put in the eyes of every blind person That was a descriptive thing Jesus did and it should not be seen as a new doctrine to do when one prays for those who are blind.

The normative is we are to pray for them, but using mud made of the spit is not what we are to do.

 

[Mii]

There have been some who have tried to take my Thread in a different direction. I have placed those who mock and scoff or ask the same question after it has been answered already.

Signs and wonder trigger faith it is what causes many to come and see Jesus. IF Jesus used them because HE was touched by our pain and suffering surely the Apostles felt the same thing?

If Jesus used signs and wonders and the Apostles did and others we read in the Word of God, why is it not for us also?

Jesus said You shall receive power after the Holy Spirit has come upon you and you shall be my witnesses. Are we not to receive power as did the Apostles? and did the house of Cornelius ? as did the disciple's Paul met in Ephesus? There are those who will see and still will not believe Jesus said to shake off the dust and keep going.

Those who want to explain how a sign or wonder happened is mainly to disprove God. Science does not call many sicknesses that are described in the word of God as a devil or demon. Was Jesus wrong when HE called them devils?
Yet Human reasoning and many Christian will have you believe Jesus was wrong because HE did have what we have today to show why mental disorder happens. The same Christian will tell you that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not needed because the Bible was made. Your or mine human intellect does not win people to the Lord. God has chosen to use foolish things in man's opinion to confound the wise human understanding

WE preach a Risen Lord that is a GREAT miracle and Jesus said we are to testify to the death, burial, and resurrection
We serve a Jesus who is alive, not dead. Resurrection power the Holy Spirit still moves on people to Testify that Jesus is still healing, still saving, still delivering. The empowerment of the Holy Spirit is a gateway to witnessing Jesus has risen and is alive. The Holy Spirit makes alive, gives liberty, and leads us and guides us into all truth and speaks of Jesus and confirms the word with Signs & wonders.

That has not changed even with the foolishness on TV, even with those who teach it is not for today. God is still moving. I hear all the time those Pharisees in here say " what is it not on the news prove it " I remind you they said the same things to Jesus and while He was on the Cross too.
Remember Jesus

• fed 5000 then they left him
• went to a town where HE could no mighty work there because of unbelief Jesus wanted to but could not
• the Apostles healed and still went to jail, they performed mighty miracles yet were stoned and beaten
• many in church history suffered the same. and did the same too. and continue to do so.

All of the things I experience and witness still leave room for doubt. I don't like to give a list of the things that have happened to me because I feel impressed that they are private "except" to whoever else is there. That may change with time as a lot of stories I've heard are with the opposite mentality.

I mean there are things that "almost" without a doubt is the spirit moving but I can't "see" it since faith is not sight. I do have faith btw in the Lord working in mighty ways.

It is interesting though because take for example Joseph and his story. There was no "miraculous" event in the same way people give examples of what is not happening today (Moses, Jesus, Disciples, etc.)

but it was no less a miracle. Same with Daniel. If we don't focus on the Lion's den, the Lord still worked mightily...from my read, more so due to how the angel interacted with him. He had to fast.

I mention those 2 because he may not work that way for everyone. Doors opening in ministry, providence, dreams & visions...those are a little less perceptible to most, and of course you have to discern the source still also like with other stuff.

but anyway, about your thread topic. I see it as both for myself.

I'll be honest, there are times when I'm so "berean" with the Lord that I think it's counterproductive. I want and (think I need) more revelation. I've had LOTS the real challenge is walking in faith for other to see. It's uncomfortable. I'm not ashamed but I do have issues with the shame. Even a simple verse fragment like "despising the shame" causes consternation but that was Jesus and the disciples (Acts 5:41) rejoiced in that.

Some of this may just be excuses, but I also believe that his timing will be readily apparent.

It is a goal of mine to have some of these things straightened out in my own heart and not interrupt the spirit from flowing because I want to analyze precisely what it is. I'm a bit scientific about it...but his ways are higher than my ways and so it's like this unending just "journey" toward an ill-defined goal, except full agreement (as much as is possible in the flesh) with the Spirit. That IS my goal, but it's a lifelong thing I feel strongly.

As far as a gateway, I believe we are vessels certainly and that the word for pour (out the spirit) is similar to gush (8210 in hebrew; see joel) The greek one idr, I just looked it up but for some reason just recall the Hebrew. I think I heard someone on the radio use the word "torrent or like unto a geyser". I experience that, but it's just so private almost all the time that I doubt until people are impacted and then it is quite encouraging.

Anyway, the main thing I find is to not get in the way...like walking around with a cup that is overflowing and trying to manage what seems like superfluity...it's not. Dying to pride and myself is a goal to be a more containing vessel or "gateway" if that makes sense.

I've also understood what you are talking about as a channel. I stopped using it because "channeling" has evil connotations, but a channel is also a riverbed that has water flowing through it and something people seeking can drink from or tune in to.

Like I said, this is a hard topic for me. I'm much more forthcoming in person because I have instant feedback and it's much more practical to be in agreement. This is like doing everything via leaving each other voicemails. It's a thing, it's just hard to interact with difficult topics and I don't want to put too much of my heart into a voicemail today.

Signs and miracles were not the main topic. I only mentioned it because a poster had an issue with your post. The Lord can easily work like he did with Joseph and it still be the Spirit working mightily. The main thing is to have faith as a discipline and as a stewardship walking in all practical humility and letting the Lord do the rest I find.

 

[CS1]

All of the things I experience and witness still leave room for doubt. I don't like to give a list of the things that have happened to me because I feel impressed that they are private "except" to whoever else is there. That may change with time as a lot of stories I've heard are with the opposite mentality.

I mean there are things that "almost" without a doubt is the spirit moving but I can't "see" it since faith is not sight. I do have faith btw in the Lord working in mighty ways.

It is interesting though because take for example Joseph and his story. There was no "miraculous" event in the same way people give examples of what is not happening today (Moses, Jesus, Disciples, etc.)

but it was no less a miracle. Same with Daniel. If we don't focus on the Lion's den, the Lord still worked mightily...from my read, more so due to how the angel interacted with him. He had to fast.

I mention those 2 because he may not work that way for everyone. Doors opening in ministry, providence, dreams & visions...those are a little less perceptible to most, and of course you have to discern the source still also like with other stuff.

but anyway, about your thread topic. I see it as both for myself.

I'll be honest, there are times when I'm so "berean" with the Lord that I think it's counterproductive. I want and (think I need) more revelation. I've had LOTS the real challenge is walking in faith for other to see. It's uncomfortable. I'm not ashamed but I do have issues with the shame. Even a simple verse fragment like "despising the shame" causes consternation but that was Jesus and the disciples (Acts 5:41) rejoiced in that.

Some of this may just be excuses, but I also believe that his timing will be readily apparent.

It is a goal of mine to have some of these things straightened out in my own heart and not interrupt the spirit from flowing because I want to analyze precisely what it is. I'm a bit scientific about it...but his ways are higher than my ways and so it's like this unending just "journey" toward an ill-defined goal, except full agreement (as much as is possible in the flesh) with the Spirit. That IS my goal, but it's a lifelong thing I feel strongly.

As far as a gateway, I believe we are vessels certainly and that the word for pour (out the spirit) is similar to gush (8210 in hebrew; see joel) The greek one idr, I just looked it up but for some reason just recall the Hebrew. I think I heard someone on the radio use the word "torrent or like unto a geyser". I experience that, but it's just so private almost all the time that I doubt until people are impacted and then it is quite encouraging.

Anyway, the main thing I find is to not get in the way...like walking around with a cup that is overflowing and trying to manage what seems like superfluity...it's not. Dying to pride and myself is a goal to be a more containing vessel or "gateway" if that makes sense.

I've also understood what you are talking about as a channel. I stopped using it because "channeling" has evil connotations, but a channel is also a riverbed that has water flowing through it and something people seeking can drink from or tune in to.

Like I said, this is a hard topic for me. I'm much more forthcoming in person because I have instant feedback and it's much more practical to be in agreement. This is like doing everything via leaving each other voicemails. It's a thing, it's just hard to interact with difficult topics and I don't want to put too much of my heart into a voicemail today.

Signs and miracles were not the main topic. I only mentioned it because a poster had an issue with your post. The Lord can easily work like he did with Joseph and it still be the Spirit working mightily. The main thing is to have faith as a discipline and as a stewardship walking in all practical humility and letting the Lord do the rest I find.

I never used the word Channel but yielding vessel. the context of the gateway over the goal is to do more don't stop go further God want to use us more and more. The Holy Spirit wants to demonstrate Jesus has indeed Risen as Acts 4:33 says.

 

[biker]

One of the best signs and wonders happening to many of us who are filled with the Holy Spirit is when we enter some establishment and immediately can see non believers know we are different. They don't know why we are different, but to them, we could look strange/act strange/speak strange/whatever it may be, they just know something is different between themselves and us. That tells me the Holy Spirit is still alive and active because we make others feel condemned/indifferent/off.

And there are the signs you can see physically still happening like miracles, people still accepting Christ, little things that benefit our lives are signs and wonders of God, President Trump being elected was a for sure sign and wonder. The list is endless here if we look at the big picture, not for the big boom in the sky.

 

[Mii]

I never used the word Channel but yielding vessel. the context of the gateway over the goal is to do more don't stop go further God want to use us more and more. The Holy Spirit wants to demonstrate Jesus has indeed Risen as Acts 4:33 says.

Well I agree that there is no real "stopping place". There are places of rest within our walk, but none of us have "arrived", although some people do live like they have. I've talked to an older person who has this mentality, it's not prideful, it's more sad that empowered living is only for young people. If your goal is to reach a stopping place, then I'd say there is a problem, if it's in the flesh.

I don't think that's how it is. I have mini-goals every day and overarching long-term goals in my relationship with the Lord but sometimes indeed it is just being a vessel/gateway and just "flowing".

There are times when I'm trudging along and it feels grueling...but that's a heart issue sometimes and fortunately prayer is an option

 

[Blain]

All of the things I experience and witness still leave room for doubt. I don't like to give a list of the things that have happened to me because I feel impressed that they are private "except" to whoever else is there. That may change with time as a lot of stories I've heard are with the opposite mentality.

I mean there are things that "almost" without a doubt is the spirit moving but I can't "see" it since faith is not sight. I do have faith btw in the Lord working in mighty ways.

It is interesting though because take for example Joseph and his story. There was no "miraculous" event in the same way people give examples of what is not happening today (Moses, Jesus, Disciples, etc.)

but it was no less a miracle. Same with Daniel. If we don't focus on the Lion's den, the Lord still worked mightily...from my read, more so due to how the angel interacted with him. He had to fast.

I mention those 2 because he may not work that way for everyone. Doors opening in ministry, providence, dreams & visions...those are a little less perceptible to most, and of course you have to discern the source still also like with other stuff.

but anyway, about your thread topic. I see it as both for myself.

I'll be honest, there are times when I'm so "berean" with the Lord that I think it's counterproductive. I want and (think I need) more revelation. I've had LOTS the real challenge is walking in faith for other to see. It's uncomfortable. I'm not ashamed but I do have issues with the shame. Even a simple verse fragment like "despising the shame" causes consternation but that was Jesus and the disciples (Acts 5:41) rejoiced in that.

Some of this may just be excuses, but I also believe that his timing will be readily apparent.

It is a goal of mine to have some of these things straightened out in my own heart and not interrupt the spirit from flowing because I want to analyze precisely what it is. I'm a bit scientific about it...but his ways are higher than my ways and so it's like this unending just "journey" toward an ill-defined goal, except full agreement (as much as is possible in the flesh) with the Spirit. That IS my goal, but it's a lifelong thing I feel strongly.

As far as a gateway, I believe we are vessels certainly and that the word for pour (out the spirit) is similar to gush (8210 in hebrew; see joel) The greek one idr, I just looked it up but for some reason just recall the Hebrew. I think I heard someone on the radio use the word "torrent or like unto a geyser". I experience that, but it's just so private almost all the time that I doubt until people are impacted and then it is quite encouraging.

Anyway, the main thing I find is to not get in the way...like walking around with a cup that is overflowing and trying to manage what seems like superfluity...it's not. Dying to pride and myself is a goal to be a more containing vessel or "gateway" if that makes sense.

I've also understood what you are talking about as a channel. I stopped using it because "channeling" has evil connotations, but a channel is also a riverbed that has water flowing through it and something people seeking can drink from or tune in to.

Like I said, this is a hard topic for me. I'm much more forthcoming in person because I have instant feedback and it's much more practical to be in agreement. This is like doing everything via leaving each other voicemails. It's a thing, it's just hard to interact with difficult topics and I don't want to put too much of my heart into a voicemail today.

Signs and miracles were not the main topic. I only mentioned it because a poster had an issue with your post. The Lord can easily work like he did with Joseph and it still be the Spirit working mightily. The main thing is to have faith as a discipline and as a stewardship walking in all practical humility and letting the Lord do the rest I find.

Your post was a blessing to read and I wanted to thank you for expressing yourself, you show a humble and learning ready heart, I think you and I are the same in many ways I also like to analyze things and tend to have scientific kind of mindest and sometimes I can over analyze things over think them when he wants me to let go and allow the river to flow. Speaking of that channel you spoke of I know this channel well it is like a river there is a flow to it and sometimes there can be bed rocks to slow down the flow or halt it ( mostly bedrocks of my own design)

I feel this flow when I am cc and he speaks through me I feel this flow in my private time with the lord and I feel this flow just by thinking of him. for whatever reason I am naturally in tuned with it while I see that others struggle with it. For instance relating to prayer and miracles If I try to act without him first giving the green light it feels fake forced stale even especially if I try to pray for healing for others for some reason that flow isn't there but when I am in bed just enjoying being with him sometimes I will suddenly feel or sense someone out there is alone broken lost their souls crying out in desperation their pain inside deeper than any blade could cut and it is as if I feel what they feel their tears are the tears pouring on my pillow and that flow is not just there it is pouring and I pour my entire being into prayer for them and for him to go them heal their inner bleeding and wrap them in his warmth and love clothing them in royalty.

This is the gushing of the spirit for me and it seems that God works with people in different ways, however the power and the pouring of the waters only happened when he said for it to if I try to do anything without him first giving the command there is no power in it. A soldier doesn't act on his own he waits for the commander to give the order. Sorry for the super long post XD