God didn't think it robbery to be equal to Himself

[Shubee]

Just to repeat myself:

Colossians 2:9
"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."

'Deity' in Colossians 2:9 of the NASB (and Godhead in the KJV) is a translation of the Greek theotees, which is "an abstract noun for theos," the usual Greek word translated 'God.' (Greek-English Lexicon, Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich). "An abstract noun is one indicating a quality, as goodness, beauty." (Funk and Wagnalls Standard Dictionary, International Edition).

So Christ possesses all the fullness of God's qualities. This sounds a lot like William Barclay's commentary on John 1:1.

William Barclay wrote:

Finally John says that "The Word was God". There is no doubt that this is a difficult saying for us to understand, and it is difficult because Greek, in which John wrote, had a different way of saying things from the way in which English speaks. When the Greek uses a noun it almost always uses the definite article with it. The Greek for God is `theos', and the definite article is `ho'. When Greek speaks about God it does not simply say `theos'; it says `ho theos'. Now, when Greek does not use the definite article with a noun that noun becomes much more like an adjective; it describes the character, the quality of the person. John did not say that the Word was `ho theos'; that would have been to say that the Word was identical with God; he says that the Word was `theos' --without the definite article-- which means that the Word was, as we might say, of the very same character and quality and essence and being as God. When John said `The Word was God' he was not saying that Jesus is identical with God; he was saying that Jesus is so perfectly the same as God in mind, in heart, in being that in Jesus we perfectly see what God is like. --The Daily Study Bible --The Gospel of John vol.1 III. [Revised Edition ISBN 0-664-21304-9]

 

[Shubee]

NOW please give me your definition of the term "Holy Trinity", every bit as plain and concise as I did.

How many times must I say this? Millerites do not define Trinity in their fundamental beliefs. We prefer to agree with the Apostle Paul on the definition of God:

1 Corinthians 8:6-7
"Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. But not everyone knows this." (cf. John 1:3).

 

[pastac]

Shubee can you please give it a rest! This is really not helping people receive because you post so much stuff! And a lot of the stuff you post is questionable stuff. You do know what they say about stuff don't you? We eat and eat and eat and eat and eat and not all that we eat is healthy eventually we release stuff!

 

[Shubee]

There are individual Millerites that define the Trinity but I believe that it detracts from the Scriptural emphasis on Christ and the Holy Spirit being the Representatives of God.

 

[SolidGround]

Thank you for your time Eugene. I think I just solved the puzzle.
All it took was a bit of digging on your website, and a few google searches, and I figured out why you are here.

You've caused a lot of dissension, in a lot of places.

I hope you find peace.

 

[Shubee]

Shubee can you please give it a rest!

Can you ask my critics and detractors to stop asking me the same questions over and over again?

 

[Shubee]

NOW please give me your definition of the term "Holy Trinity", every bit as plain and concise as I did.

I prefer greater precision. The Trinity means Three: the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[pastac]

Can you ask my critics and detractors to stop asking me the same questions over and over again?

I'm asking you to give it a rest just look back over all the stuff!!!!

 

[pastac]

?????????????

 

[Ukorin]

Ty Solid. I wish I had done that sooner.

 

[pastac]

That's why you just don't get in every endless pointless debate! Agenda at the end! Here are a few acronyms that may he
Agaainst Always Anti
Godly Giving Growth
Eternal Eclectic Erroneous
Nonsensible Nonsensibe Nothginess
Doctrinal Dumb Devilish
Awareness Advice Attacks

 

[pastac]

sorry about format hope you get the points

 

[Shubee]

Look at all these dishonest attempts to ruin this thread!

It remains that the Greek word morphe confirms the Millerite doctrine of the Son having the rank of a lesser infinity than the Father. It is also another mighty confirmation of the representational status of the Son.

Fantasy is no basis for the definition of words. My dictionary is how words are used in the Bible and, secondarily, in other ancient Greek or Hebrew texts. That's obviously not good enough for you.

It's funny how you have been pretending to translate Philippians 2:6 without expressing a single intelligent thought on the meaning of words.

If you learned that all of the prophecies, covenants, promises, and threats found in the Scriptures are conditional whether or not a condition is stated; their fulfillment being contingent upon man's response to God's commands, would you turn away from God?

Was God obligated to fulfill all of Deu 28:15-68 or could He show some mercy and select whatever options from His promise that He wanted?

Still unanswered. So why can't my critics see their deplorable ignorance and their inability to answer the elementary questions on the topics that they brought up?

 

[tourist]

Look at all these dishonest attempts to ruin this thread!

It remains that the Greek word morphe confirms the Millerite doctrine of the Son having the rank of a lesser infinity than the Father. It is also another mighty confirmation of the representational status of the Son.







Still unanswered. So why can't my critics see their deplorable ignorance and their inability to answer the elementary questions on the topics that they brought up?

Perhaps because they are sick of your deplorable arrogance.

 

[Shubee]

Millerites don't think it's robbery to speak for God

Perhaps because they are sick of your deplorable arrogance.

The Millerites were to be invincible witnesses for 3&1/2 years, literally tormenting those who dwell on the earth.
Revelation 11:1-13

Your experience shows that you're obviously just a holdover from that.

Millerites today are to illuminate the darkness of the world with the three angels' messages.

Holdovers are not expected to be able to cope with that either.
Revelation 18:1-5

 

[VCO]

The page The Fundamental Beliefs of the Millerites, Circa 2014 with its links is very specific about my core beliefs. And on page 1 of this current thread I stated the exact meaning of certain special Greek words and interpreted the phrase "the DEITY of Jesus Christ." I have already said plenty about the Trinity to the point that I can't imagine why more needs to be said.

I am not trying to see what the Millerite webpage says. I am trying to see if you personally can explain your beliefs, in simple terms, defining your terminology, while keeping it concise and understandable.

In other words, I am trying to understand WHY you are so Vague when answering a question on your doctrinal beliefs?

Compared to why you have SO MUCH TO SAY when you try to answer why you believe your strange understandings of prophecy?

Most of us can explain precisely what we believe doctrinally, supporting ever bit of it with Scripture.

While your answers about doctrinal beliefs always leave us uncertain about what you really believe.

It is exactly like when I try to pin Mormon Missionaries or Jehovah Witnesses down to explain what they believe, all they can do is shove books and pamphlets at you, telling me the answers are in their literature.

 

[SolidGround]

I am not trying to see what the Millerite webpage says. I am trying to see if you personally can explain your beliefs, in simple terms, defining your terminology, while keeping it concise and understandable.

In other words, I am trying to understand WHY you are so Vague when answering a question on your doctrinal beliefs?

Compared to why you have SO MUCH TO SAY when you try to answer why you believe your strange understandings of prophecy?

Most of us can explain precisely what we believe doctrinally, supporting ever bit of it with Scripture.

While your answers about doctrinal beliefs always leave us uncertain about what you really believe.

It is exactly like when I try to pin Mormon Missionaries or Jehovah Witnesses down to explain what they believe, all they can do is shove books and pamphlets at you, telling me the answers are in their literature.

He is the one who wrote that site.
His doctrines are not held by mainline SDA members, nor Millerites.

What is on his page are his own interpretations and beliefs.
So when you read the site with that understanding, his doctrinal beliefs become more clear.

 

[Shubee]

Most of us can explain precisely what we believe doctrinally, supporting ever bit of it with Scripture.

Yet you have no understanding of the opening post and the meaning of the Greek word mophe.

While your answers about doctrinal beliefs always leave us uncertain about what you really believe.

You are on a mission to discredit me, not because of uncertainty, but because of your opposition to understanding truth and can't refute my claims.

 

[VCO]

The Millerites were to be invincible witnesses for 3&1/2 years, literally tormenting those who dwell on the earth.
Revelation 11:1-13

Your experience shows that you're obviously just a holdover from that.

Millerites today are to illuminate the darkness of the world with the three angels' messages.

Holdovers are not expected to be able to cope with that either.
Revelation 18:1-5

LOL, LOL, my side aches, from laughing. I am sorry but that is the MOST RIDICULOUS explanation of who the two witness are that I have ever heard.

Count them ONE, TWO, mis-interpreted the Millerites. LOL.

Now let me give you a Biblical interpretation that at least biblically speculates who these Two Witnesses during the GREAT TRIBULATION might be, just before CHRIST sets up HIS thousand year KINGDOM. Why did I say "might be"? Because the Bible really does not name them.

Now the facts that we know, are they will have Power to do miracles, just like the Prophets of the Old Testament did, and the Apostles did when they were validating our New Testament. We also know that miraculous signs were for the Jews, because they required a sign, before believing something new was from GOD. We know from prophecy that the whole nation of Israel will be converted in a single day because of those miracles, so as to recognize and receive Jesus Christ as their Messiah and LORD, meaning MASTER.

Now who might have that much influence over ISRAEL?

To understand that concept, we must look at some other pertinent absolutes in scriptures:

1 Corinthians 15:50 (ESV)
[SUP]50 [/SUP] I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Now this is not talking about the KINGDOM OF CHRIST here on earth, because we know the 144,000 Jews are sealed to enter that KINGDOM in their mortal bodies. Therefore this is talking about the Kingdom of GOD where HIS Throne is in Heaven.

Hebrews 9:27 (NKJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
Scripture also teaches us:

Did God Name any exceptions? The 144,000 are not exceptions, because they go into the KINGDOM OF CHRIST in their mortal bodies and do die after a very long life. So where are the exceptions that GOD NAMED?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Therefore encourage one another with these words.

There are the only exceptions, we who happen to be alive and genuine Christians, who hear the archangel call the Bride out of her old dwelling place to go to the Wedding of the Lamb, are those WHO DO NOT DIE ONCE, but we do have to be CHANGED in the twinkling of an eye on the way up.

1 Corinthians 15:52-53 (NASB)
[SUP]52 [/SUP] in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
[SUP]53 [/SUP] For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Now with that in mind read these two verses:

Genesis 5:24 (NIV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

2 Kings 2:11 (NKJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

NOW we know those two men could not have been taken in their mortal bodies to the Throne Room of GOD in HEAVEN, because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of GOD. Jesus emptied his blood on golden Altar in Heaven as the Ultimate Sacrifice, and thereafter referred to His body as Flesh and Bone, not Flesh and Blood. So if Enoch and Elijah, did not die and there is NO mention that they were CHANGED to be immortal, WHERE DID GOD TAKE THEM.

Luke 1:37 (HCSB)
[SUP]37 [/SUP] For nothing will be impossible with God.”

I also absolutely believe that GOD's Omnipresence includes not only every cubic inch of the Universe and Heaven, but also every second of TIME as we know it at the same time. He declares the END from the Beginning because HE is Omnipresent in ALL TIME. He is not a created being traveling through TIME, He is the CREATOR of TIME as we know it.

THEREFORE, it is ENTIRELY POSSIBLE that Enoch and Elijah were transported through TIME to become the Two Witnesses of Revelation that have the kind of influence over ISRAEL to covert all of them to believe and receive Jesus Christ as their MESSIAH and LORD. AND those two DO DIE in the Streets of Jerusalem at the hands of the Antichrist at the End of their Ministry:

Revelation 11:7-12 (HCSB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] When they finish their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, conquer them, and kill them.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Their dead bodies will lie in the public square of the great city, which prophetically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And representatives from the peoples, tribes, languages, and nations will view their bodies for three and a half days and not permit their bodies to be put into a tomb.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Those who live on the earth will gloat over them and celebrate and send gifts to one another because these two prophets brought judgment to those who live on the earth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] But after 3[SUP]1[/SUP]/[SUB]2[/SUB] days, the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet. So great fear fell on those who saw them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” They went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies watched them. {LIVE ON CNN}

 

[VCO]

Yet you have no understanding of the opening post and the meaning of the Greek word mophe.

You are on a mission to discredit me, not because of uncertainty, but because of your opposition to understanding truth and can't refute my claims.

NO, you are doing an excellent job of that, all by yourself. I would like to lead you to really come to KNOW the Lord Jesus Christ personally and intimately as your LORD and Master, understanding that He truly is GOD sharing that singular DEITY co-equally with the Father and the Holy Spirit. You see, I do not give up easily on those I am praying for.


Why wouldn't I understand: [FONT=Gentium !important]morphê[/FONT], your the one following the twisted understandings of a proven false prophet.

Greek Strong's Number: 3444Greek Word: μορφή
Transliteration: morphē
Phonetic Pronunciation:

mor-fay'
Root: perhaps from the base of <G3313> (through the idea of adjustment of parts)
Cross Reference: TDNT - 4:742,607
Part of Speech: n f
Vine's Words: Form



Usage Notes:

English Words used in KJV:
form 3
[Total Count: 3]

perhaps from the base of <G3313> (meros) (through the idea of adjustment of parts); shape; figurative nature :- form.


Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

FormUsage Number: 1
Strong's Number: <G3444>
Original Word: μορφή, morphē
Usage Notes: denotes "the special or characteristic form or feature" of a person or thing; it is used with particular significance in the NT, only of Christ, in Phil. 2:6, 7, in the phrases "being in the form of God," and "taking the form of a servant." An excellent definition of the word is that of Gifford: "morphē is therefore properly the nature or essence, not in the abstract, but as actually subsisting in the individual, and retained as long as the individual itself exists. … Thus in the passage before us morphē Theou is the Divine nature actually and inseparably subsisting in the Person of Christ. … For the interpretation of 'the form of God' it is sufficient to say that (1) it includes the whole nature and essence of Deity, and is inseparable from them, since they could have no actual existence without it; and (2) that it does not include in itself anything 'accidental' or separable, such as particular modes of manifestation, or conditions of glory and majesty, which may at one time be attached to the 'form,' at another separated from it. …
The true meaning of morphē in the expression 'form of God' is confirmed by its recurrence in the corresponding phrase, 'form of a servant.' It is universally admitted that the two phrases are directly antithetical, and that 'form' must therefore have the same sense in both." * [* From Gillford, "The Incarnation," pp. 16,19,39.]
The definition above mentioned applies to its use in Mark 16:12, as to the particular ways in which the Lord manifested Himself.
Note: For the synonymous word schēma, see FASHION. For the verb morphoō, see FORMED, No. 1, below.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words.

Philippians 2:6 Being in the form of God (ἐν μορφῃ Θεοῦ ὑπάρχων)
Being. Not the simple είναι to be, but stronger, denoting being which is from the beginning. See on James 2:15. It has a backward look into an antecedent condition, which has been protracted into the present. Here appropriate to the preincarnate being of Christ, to which the sentence refers. In itself it does not imply eternal, but only prior existence. Form (μορφή). We must here dismiss from our minds the idea of shape. The word is used in its philosophic sense, to denote that expression of being which carries in itself the distinctive nature and character of the being to whom it pertains, and is thus permanently identified with that nature and character. Thus it is distinguished from σχῆμαfashion, comprising that which appeals to the senses and which is changeable. Μορφήform is identified with the essence of a person or thing: σχῆμαfashion is an accident which may change without affecting the form. For the manner in which this difference is developed in the kindred verbs, see on Matthew 17:2.
As applied here to God, the word is intended to describe that mode in which the essential being of God expresses itself. We have no word which can convey this meaning, nor is it possible for us to formulate the reality. Form inevitably carries with it to us the idea of shape. It is conceivable that the essential personality of God may express itself in a mode apprehensible by the perception of pure spiritual intelligences; but the mode itself is neither apprehensible nor conceivable by human minds.
This mode of expression, this setting of the divine essence, is not identical with the essence itself, but is identified with it, as its natural and appropriate expression, answering to it in every particular. It is the perfect expression of a perfect essence. It is not something imposed from without, but something which proceeds from the very depth of the perfect being, and into which that being perfectly unfolds, as light from fire. To say, then, that Christ was in the form of God, is to say that He existed as essentially one with God. The expression of deity through human nature (v. 7) thus has its background in the expression of deity as deity in the eternal ages of God's being. Whatever the mode of this expression, it marked the being of Christ in the eternity before creation. As the form of God was identified with the being of God, so Christ, being in the form of God, was identified with the being, nature, and personality of God.
This form, not being identical with the divine essence, but dependent upon it, and necessarily implying it, can be parted with or laid aside. Since Christ is one with God, and therefore pure being, absolute existence, He can exist without the form. This form of God Christ laid aside in His incarnation.
Thought it not robbery to be equal with God (οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῳ)
Robbery is explained in three ways. 1. A robbing, the act. 2. The thing robbed, a piece of plunder. 3. A prize, a thing to be grasped. Here in the last sense.
Paul does not then say, as A.V., that Christ did not think it robbery to be equal with God: for, 1, that fact goes without. saying in the previous expression, being in the form of God. 2. On this explanation the statement is very awkward. Christ, being in the form of God, did not think it robbery to be equal with God; but, after which we should naturally expect, on the other hand, claimed and asserted equality: whereas the statement is: Christ was in the form of God and did not think it robbery to be equal with God, but (instead) emptied Himself. Christ held fast His assertion of divine dignity, but relinquished it. The antithesis is thus entirely destroyed.
Taking the word ἁρπαγμὸν (A.V., robbery) to mean a highly prized possession, we understand Paul to say that Christ, being, before His incarnation, in the form of God, did not regard His divine equality as a prize which was to be grasped at and retained at all hazards, but, on the contrary, laid aside the form of God, and took upon Himself the nature of man. The emphasis in the passage is upon Christ's humiliation. The fact of His equality with God is stated as a background, in order to throw the circumstances of His incarnation into stronger relief. Hence the peculiar form of Paul's statement Christ's great object was to identify Himself with humanity; not to appear to men as divine but as human. Had He come into the world emphasizing His equality with God, the world would have been amazed, but not saved He did not grasp at this. The rather He counted humanity His prize, and so laid aside the conditions of His preexistent state, and became man.

Word Studies in the New Testament.

A prize (harpagmon). Predicate accusative with hēgēsato. Originally words in -mos signified the act, not the result (-ma). The few examples of harpagmos (Plutarch, etc.) allow it to be understood as equivalent to harpagma, like baptismos and baptisma. That is to say Paul means a prize to be held on to rather than something to be won ("robbery").

To be on an equality with God (to einai isa theoi). Accusative articular infinitive object of hēgēsato, "the being equal with God" (associative instrumental case theōi after isa). Isa is adverbial use of neuter plural with einai as in Rev. 21:16.

Emptied himself (heauton ekenōse). First aorist active indicative of kenoō, old verb from kenos, empty. Of what did Christ empty himself? Not of his divine nature. That was impossible. He continued to be the Son of God. There has arisen a great controversy on this word, a Kenosis doctrine. Undoubtedly Christ gave up his environment of glory. He took upon himself limitations of place (space) and of knowledge and of power, though still on earth retaining more of these than any mere man. It is here that men should show restraint and modesty, though it is hard to believe that Jesus limited himself by error of knowledge and certainly not by error of conduct. He was without sin, though tempted as we are. "He stripped himself of the insignia of majesty" (Lightfoot).


Word Pictures in the New Testament.

2:6-8. The word translated nature ([FONT=Gentium !important]morphē[/FONT]) in verses 6 and 7 is a crucial term in this passage. This word (trans. "form" in the kjv and nasb) stresses the inner essence or reality of that with which it is associated (cf. Mark 16:12). Christ Jesus, Paul said, is of the very essence ([FONT=Gentium !important]morphē[/FONT]) of God, and in His incarnation He embraced perfect humanity. His complete and absolute deity is here carefully stressed by the apostle. The Savior's claim to deity infuriated the Jewish leaders (John 5:18) and caused them to accuse Him of blasphemy (John 10:33).Though possessing full deity (John 1:14; Col. 2:9), Christ did not consider His equality with God (Phil. 2:6) as something to be grasped or held onto. In other words Christ did not hesitate to set aside His self-willed use of deity when He became a man. As God He had all the rights of deity, and yet during His incarnate state He surrendered His right to manifest Himself visibly as the God of all splendor and glory.
Christ's humiliation included His making Himself nothing, taking the very nature (morphē) of a servant, and being made in human likeness (v. 7). These statements indicate that Christ became a man, a true human being. The words "made Himself nothing" are, literally, "He emptied Himself." "Emptied," from the Greek kenoō, points to the divesting of His self-interests, but not of His deity. "The very nature of a servant" certainly points to His lowly and humble position, His willingness to obey the Father, and serve others. He became a man, a true human being. "Likeness" suggests similarity but difference. Though His humanity was genuine, He was different from all other humans in that He was sinless (Heb. 4:15).
Thus it is seen that Christ, while retaining the essence of God, was also human. In His incarnation He was fully God and fully man at the same time. He was God manifest in human flesh (John 1:14).
Some have wrongly taught that the phrase, being found in appearance as a man (Phil. 2:8), means that He only looked human. But this contradicts verse 7. "Appearance" is the Greek schēmati, meaning an outer appearance which may be temporary. This contrasts with morphe4 ("very nature") in verses 6 and 7, which speaks of an outer appearance that reveals permanent inner quality.
The condescension of Christ included not only His birth—the Incarnation in which He became the God-Man—but also His death. And it was the most cruel and despicable form of death—even death on a cross! (v. 8) This form of capital punishment was limited to non-Romans and the worst criminals.
No better example of humiliation and a selfless attitude for believers to follow could possibly be given than that of Christ. With this example before them, the saints at Philippi should be "like-minded" (v. 2) and live humbly before their God and each other.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.