God LIED!

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
875
113
So your saying you believe the prodigal was a son, stopped being a son (lost salvation) then was restored?
I've already answered this numerous times in the "prodigal son" post, but for the record,

No, I do not believe in multiple regenerations.

Just asking for confirmation, again, if the son died in a prodigal state, would he have been his fathers son, or cast out to eternal darkness?
Because of 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, I do not have any reason to believe a true son would die in a prodigal state.

Now answer my question...

Was the second son in Matthew 21:28-32 saved?

I'll answer it for you. Seeing the second son in Matthew 21:28-32 represented the unbelieving chief priests and elders, the answer is NO.

So where did you get this strange notion that Jesus' use of the word "son" in parables indicates a saved, born again person

You are reading your doctrine and your preexisting beliefs into the text, making the scriptures conform to your beliefs instead of allowing the scriptures to mold what you believe.
 

Sketch

Well-known member
Nov 1, 2018
1,278
300
83
I think budman you constantly ignoring scripture and only believe what you say you believe but dont actually follow through,,,and your disobedience to that shows. Thats not christlike at all Im afraid. Would you be like those believers that say I believe in God but then Say you dont need to be baptised into christ? You just become a believer the instant you believe....right and thats it? ANYBODY can claim they believe. Liars can say they believe. DEmons say they believe.

You not fooling anybody. To have faith one trusts and obeys. When God tells you to DO something you do it by faith. Now God may tell us different things at different times but He never tells us to go AGAINST his Word.
This is so typical of the personal attacks that come against anyone who "dares" to stand on the complete work of the vicarious atonement of Christ.

Romans 4:4-5
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,399
659
113
41
Brother 1st Corinthians 3.......

a. Believer a has works of Gold, silver and precious stones that get tried by fire and purified
b. Believer b has work of wood, hay and stubble that get tried by fire and burnt to a crisp yet they are saved so as by fire

You can say they have works left, but there is zero indication that is true and every piece of wood, hay and stubble I have ever laid fire to is BURNT to ashes with NOTHING left....

The bible is right, the comparison is clear and common sense and proven knowledge proves that NOTHING is left of WOOD hay and stubble when they GET burnt up in a fire....

To be honest, I am surprised you are arguing against this.......
Okay lets read the text
1 Cor 3:10-15

10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

He is speaking of each believer, there is no "believer a and b", you read that in there. If "we" build on the foundation with "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw", then on that day the ones built with hay and straw will be burnt and it will hurt us, but that which we build with" gold, silver, precious stones", will still be. This Says NOTHING AT ALL IN ANY WAY EVER, about someone saved in Jesus name, who did nothing for Him. All this condescending talk about common sense and ?????

What are you arguing for exactly? I say those in Jesus Christ WILL bare fruit, it's impossible to be saved and not changed. period. I'm not saying we "have to" do works, I'm saying by His power, and for His glory we WILL do them, that is WHY we're saved, for His glory. Not ours. Where do I have it wrong? And are you really arguing for the case that man can be saved in glory by the Creator of everything in power by His Son Jesus Christ, and do nothing for Him or His glory and kingdom? Really? I don't understand exactly what is other side of this "debate" is. I just can't speak powerlessness about my King, it's just not true.
 

Milee777

Active member
Dec 24, 2018
173
120
43
Okay lets read the text
1 Cor 3:10-15

10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

He is speaking of each believer, there is no "believer a and b", you read that in there. If "we" build on the foundation with "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw", then on that day the ones built with hay and straw will be burnt and it will hurt us, but that which we build with" gold, silver, precious stones", will still be. This Says NOTHING AT ALL IN ANY WAY EVER, about someone saved in Jesus name, who did nothing for Him. All this condescending talk about common sense and ?????

What are you arguing for exactly? I say those in Jesus Christ WILL bare fruit, it's impossible to be saved and not changed. period. I'm not saying we "have to" do works, I'm saying by His power, and for His glory we WILL do them, that is WHY we're saved, for His glory. Not ours. Where do I have it wrong? And are you really arguing for the case that man can be saved in glory by the Creator of everything in power by His Son Jesus Christ, and do nothing for Him or His glory and kingdom? Really? I don't understand exactly what is other side of this "debate" is. I just can't speak powerlessness about my King, it's just not true.
i have no feelings...i do say that i love God but i quickly remember what the Bible says about those who hate their brother if they say that they love God , are liars. I have no feelings...am tired of the walk...there's a lonely grand dad in our home who longs to see me and yet , i don't enter his room to visit him ...i infact sometimes hate some people's evil minds so much that i am disgusted at their entire person and avoid them like my brother.
i find this as a great obstacle in my walk with God..i have asked many times to God - (ask God how many times i would have asked the same thing..i hope His tympanic membrane is intact) that He should change my heart.
But i have this un-quenched thirst within me...now.
Confusion is at its peak....at 3 am today my mom told me that i woke up saying "mama , mama i am mentally confused" and went back to sleep. I don't even remember this.
my heart is beating...yet i feel so dead. i have so many blessings , yet as though missing the whole point of life.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,997
113
I think budman you constantly ignoring scripture and only believe what you say you believe but dont actually follow through,,,and your disobedience to that shows. Thats not christlike at all Im afraid. Would you be like those believers that say I believe in God but then Say you dont need to be baptised into christ? You just become a believer the instant you believe....right and thats it? ANYBODY can claim they believe. Liars can say they believe. DEmons say they believe.

You not fooling anybody. To have faith one trusts and obeys. When God tells you to DO something you do it by faith. Now God may tell us different things at different times but He never tells us to go AGAINST his Word.

Let me ask you this: Is there anything we must do to retain salvation? Not will do, but must do?
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,997
113
The way you describe salvation almost sounds like receiving a car as a gift, but not receiving the keys and the car not having a battery or an engine.
That is the silliest thing I've heard so far.

Because we have Christ's righteousness imputed to us, we have a salvation that is entirely complete, and entirely based upon His merit - not ours.

Period.

BY THIS WE KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. AND other such things.
If you believe in Jesus for salvation, you have kept His commandments. Belief is all that is required.

"Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." (John 6:28-29)

Period.

There are ways to examine ourselves to see if our faith is genuine or not.
Yep. And here it is: "The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God." (Romans 8:16)

Good works are not an indication one actually belongs to Jesus, as those folks in Matthew 7:22-23 will find out.

But God's will for us is our sanctification. Are you making God's will optional?
Nope. But one can resist God's will. An example of that is God wills for none to perish but for all to come to repentance - but most won't.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,997
113
i have no feelings...i do say that i love God but i quickly remember what the Bible says about those who hate their brother if they say that they love God , are liars. I have no feelings...am tired of the walk...there's a lonely grand dad in our home who longs to see me and yet , i don't enter his room to visit him ...i infact sometimes hate some people's evil minds so much that i am disgusted at their entire person and avoid them like my brother.
i find this as a great obstacle in my walk with God..i have asked many times to God - (ask God how many times i would have asked the same thing..i hope His tympanic membrane is intact) that He should change my heart.
But i have this un-quenched thirst within me...now.
Confusion is at its peak....at 3 am today my mom told me that i woke up saying "mama , mama i am mentally confused" and went back to sleep. I don't even remember this.
my heart is beating...yet i feel so dead. i have so many blessings , yet as though missing the whole point of life.
Milee, all Christians struggle with various sins. Don't single yourself out for condemnation - God has none for you. As a believer, you are loved of God and secure in His hand. Even the Apostles struggled with besetting sins. So much so, Paul called himself the "chief of sinners."

God does change us. For some, it happens rather quickly, for other, it may take years - even a lifetime. It all depends on how much you are willing to yield.

You aren't dead inside. That's a lie from the Devil. It's one of his tricks to sideline believers - to make us stagnant.

Take some time to rest in the Lord. Give your burdens over to Him - let them go - and don't worry.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,399
659
113
41
i have no feelings...i do say that i love God but i quickly remember what the Bible says about those who hate their brother if they say that they love God , are liars. I have no feelings...am tired of the walk...there's a lonely grand dad in our home who longs to see me and yet , i don't enter his room to visit him ...i infact sometimes hate some people's evil minds so much that i am disgusted at their entire person and avoid them like my brother.
i find this as a great obstacle in my walk with God..i have asked many times to God - (ask God how many times i would have asked the same thing..i hope His tympanic membrane is intact) that He should change my heart.
But i have this un-quenched thirst within me...now.
Confusion is at its peak....at 3 am today my mom told me that i woke up saying "mama , mama i am mentally confused" and went back to sleep. I don't even remember this.
my heart is beating...yet i feel so dead. i have so many blessings , yet as though missing the whole point of life.
Man, I want to say just the right thing, just be able to put the answer right out there for you, but you're right, and each and this- "people's evil minds so much that i am disgusted at their entire person and avoid them like my brother.", is how we are all in truth. We transgress so willingly and give God no honor, we truly are wretched things lost outside Christ, no matter how we look on the outside. But He still loved us just like this, "that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life", and He condescended into His Creation, born of a virgin, sent to fulfill the law that fallen man could not do, and lay down His life as the PERFECT sacrifice, to actually take the wrath of God that justly abides on fallen man for our sin, this was so that in His perfect mercy and justice could come together in glory on the cross, then 3 days latter defeated death by resurrecting from the dead, to live forever, so that all that believe, all those the come to Him are reborn of the Spirit, all of us once unable to please God at all, now reborn in His Spirit in power, and commanded to "Go make disciples of ALL nations" for His glory. Now able to see why our brothers behaviors disgust us, but also now able to see who they are in truth, that they are also created in Gods image, and you see they are just in the flesh like you were, but when God Gives us this gift, grants us repentance to see the futility of everything we do outside of Him, He changes our hearts so we can carry this message to a world that can NEVER "figure it out" in the flesh.

I just want to pray for you, I am writing it down, but I am praying to God out loud where I am.

Father, I love you and I praise you in Jesus name only by Your power. I thank you for everything you've blessed us with in open handed love. I pray Father, with all my heart that you bring your peace and power into Milee777's heart, please grant her the strength to love like you love, see others as you see us, and help her to see how vital she is in the lives of those around her, Lord I ask that you help her to see how all these hard things around her, all this bad she sees, has seen, felt, and feels, show her how you use these things to mold us into the people we are, and that it's ALL for a purpose, it's all for Your glory, but in Your glory we are made whole, we are made complete as You created us to be. I pray that Your Spirit be poured out on her, on her family, that Your power be made manifest in this world as it is in heaven. Father I cry out for this sister whose words break my heart because she is crying out for You in the midst of her troubles, Jesus I pray in Your name that she be made strong in Your name, to testify of Your glory and Your kingdom that will know NO END. I thank you and praise you for everything You are, and EVERYTHING that you do, I pray this all in the mighty name of our King, Jesus. Amen

I hope you have a good day sister, seek His face continually sister, He's preparing you for something, keep seeking His face, He is the truth.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
i have no feelings...i do say that i love God but i quickly remember what the Bible says about those who hate their brother if they say that they love God , are liars. I have no feelings...am tired of the walk...there's a lonely grand dad in our home who longs to see me and yet , i don't enter his room to visit him ...i infact sometimes hate some people's evil minds so much that i am disgusted at their entire person and avoid them like my brother.
i find this as a great obstacle in my walk with God..i have asked many times to God - (ask God how many times i would have asked the same thing..i hope His tympanic membrane is intact) that He should change my heart.
But i have this un-quenched thirst within me...now.
Confusion is at its peak....at 3 am today my mom told me that i woke up saying "mama , mama i am mentally confused" and went back to sleep. I don't even remember this.
my heart is beating...yet i feel so dead. i have so many blessings , yet as though missing the whole point of life.

Take heart Milee777! And, "Sing along with Stuart!" Marty, that is! :):):)

 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,997
113
1) IN THE BOOK OF HEBREWS - IF WE KEEP ON SINNING WILLFULLY THEN THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE BUT A FEAR OF JUDGEMENT
That verse speaks of those who have heard the gospel, come close to receiving Jesus, yet decide to reject Him. That verse does not speak about born again believers.

2) IN THE O.T - GOD SAYS - AM WEARY OF RELENTING ( I DONT REMEMBER THE CHAPTER NOR THE VERSE )
That is about Old Testament Jews who continue to rebel against God. Again, it has nothing to do with born again believers.

KING SOLOMON - SOLOMON FORSAKES THE LORD IN THE END. NOW MY SISTER TOLD ME THAT SHE HEARD IN A SERMON THAT A PREACHER WAS PREACHING THAT SOLOMON IS IN HELL FOR THIS.
I believe Solomon was saved, because despite his sin, the Bible says he was "beloved of God." (Nehemiah 13:26)

'FOR IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BRING THOSE TO REPENTANCE WHO HAVE BEEN ENLIGHTENED
Same as the first answer. Those who come close, who have "tasted" but ultimately reject the gospel. And if they remain in such a state of rejection until death, can not be saved.

PAUL - TALKS ABOUT A RACE TO BE RUN
Yes, which is our basis for rewards and place of ruling in the kingdom. Has nothing to do with losing salvation.

PAUL - SAYING " PREACHING TO OTHERS , I SHOULDN'T MYSELF GET DISQUALIFIED"
Set aside as useless for service. Again, has nothing to do with salvation.

REVELATIONS - JESUS SAYING - SOMETHING ABOUT 'SPEWING THE ONES WHO ARE LUKEWARM OUT"...IF YOU ARE NEITHER HOT NOR COLD...
Same as the above answer. Has to do with service and not salvation. He was speaking of the weak service of those in the church of Laodicea.

YOU DO NOT BELIEVE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP
Yep. Those who do not believe in Jesus for salvation are not His sheep.

IN THE END GOD IS ASKING PEOPLE ABOUT THEIR DEEDS - HE IS SAYING - WHEN I WAS NAKED , YOU CLOTHED ME , I WAS IN PRISON AND YOU VISITED ME ....NOW IF I GO TO GOD .AND HAVEN'T DONE ANY OF THESE AND IF HE ASKS ME IF I HAD....I WON'T HAVE AN ANSWER...BECAUSE I DONNO IF I HAVE DONE THESE AT ALL.
These have nothing to do with salvation - only service. Whatever we do we are to do as unto Christ - but again, our service is the foundation for rewards in heaven, or lack thereof.

IF THE RIGHTEOUS ARE SCARCELY SAVED ..." SOMETHING LIKE " THE JUDGEMENT HAS ALREADY BEGUN AND IF IT STARTS WITH US...WHERE WILL THE UNBELIEVERS AND SINNER APPEAR."
That is speaking of the difficulty in believing in Jesus - whom we have not seen - and what He did for us. For many, it goes against common sense to believe in a man, said to be born of a virgin woman, claimed to be God, died on a cross, and then rose from the dead. Who offers salvation to anyone who will simply believe He did it for them.

Without God drawing people to Himself - nobody would seek Him. People are much too in love with their sin. Who yet think they're "good enough" to make it to heaven on their own. Ask anyone if they're a good person, and most likely they'll say yes. Ask the same people if they believe they're going to heaven, and they'll also say yes, because they "try to live a good life."

It's difficult for people to accept they are vile, filthy, wretched sinners with no hope apart from Christ.
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,544
2,010
113
North Carolina
Hello star,
I agree with you that one does not automatically become naturally doing God's commadments, upon accepting Christ as our Savior.
I today do not come naturally doing all of God's commandments.
The reason for this I recognize being my little faith in Christs Way.
If I fully believed in Christ and His Way of love, truth, justice, and humility, I would then love Christ and His Way, and thus willfully of my own new reborn nature do all of Gods commandments. This is what I recognize being true faith in Christ.
I have a ways to go, as probably all of us do, before attaining a greater level of faith in Christ and His Way.

Luke 16:10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.

Becoming all that Christ desires for us to be is a life-long process and absolutely cannot be accomplished without the HS within us. As we grow in Christ our faith does as well.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,399
659
113
41
Becoming all that Christ desires for us to be is a life-long process and absolutely cannot be accomplished without the HS within us. As we grow in Christ our faith does as well.
Amen, and is absolutely amazing in every way, praise our King and Savior, Jesus!
 
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
875
113
That is the silliest thing I've heard so far.

Because we have Christ's righteousness imputed to us, we have a salvation that is entirely complete, and entirely based upon His merit - not ours.

Period.



If you believe in Jesus for salvation, you have kept His commandments. Belief is all that is required.

"Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." (John 6:28-29)

Period.



Yep. And here it is: "The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God." (Romans 8:16)

Good works are not an indication one actually belongs to Jesus, as those folks in Matthew 7:22-23 will find out.



Nope. But one can resist God's will. An example of that is God wills for none to perish but for all to come to repentance - but most won't.
Let me see if you are consistent with your doctrine. The following is a true story. It is my story.

I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation when I was young. All through my early teenage years I believed the Gospel. Then when I hit about 15, I started drinking alcohol, smoking pot, and turned away from God. By the time I was 16 or so, I was dropping acid and eating psychedelic mushrooms. I began to listen to Death Metal and Black Metal (which is satanic), dabbled in Budhism for a short time, also dabbled in occultic practices. Became a blasphemer of God and a fornicator. Absolute God hater and enemy of God. But I did not die in that condition, because God brought me out of it. One night, He convicted me and I returned like the prodigal, and I was a new person.

Now if I had died as a fornicator, blasphemer, devil glorifying, fascinated with the occult, sorcerer, would I have gone to heaven?

There are three possible answers you could give.

a. I was never saved and am still not saved, but am self deceived.

b. I was not genuinely saved as a child, but was saved later.

c. I was saved, backslid horribly, but God brought me back, and through it all, I never stopped being His child.

Notice I did not say I was saved and then lost. It is either that I have never been saved, or I was saved and backslid. I do not believe in multiple regenerations, so saved, lost, saved again is not an option.

Now, give me your opinion on whether you choose a, b, or c. And then I have this question. If I was still living the way I was living back then, and died in that condition, do you think I would go to heaven?
 
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
875
113
i have no feelings...i do say that i love God but i quickly remember what the Bible says about those who hate their brother if they say that they love God , are liars. I have no feelings...am tired of the walk...there's a lonely grand dad in our home who longs to see me and yet , i don't enter his room to visit him ...i infact sometimes hate some people's evil minds so much that i am disgusted at their entire person and avoid them like my brother.
i find this as a great obstacle in my walk with God..i have asked many times to God - (ask God how many times i would have asked the same thing..i hope His tympanic membrane is intact) that He should change my heart.
But i have this un-quenched thirst within me...now.
Confusion is at its peak....at 3 am today my mom told me that i woke up saying "mama , mama i am mentally confused" and went back to sleep. I don't even remember this.
my heart is beating...yet i feel so dead. i have so many blessings , yet as though missing the whole point of life.
Milee, I don't know if this will help or not, but we cannot base our faith on our feelings. And love is not a feeling either. Sometimes I don't feel like loving a person, but I can choose to love them. By my actions towards them. If we make decisions based on what we know God wants us to do and not on feelings, that is part of what faith is. And when we act in faith, eventually feelings follow. Just keep doing what you know God wants you to do, and He will sustain you, and bless you, and give you peace.
 
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
875
113
That verse speaks of those who have heard the gospel, come close to receiving Jesus, yet decide to reject Him. That verse does not speak about born again believers.



That is about Old Testament Jews who continue to rebel against God. Again, it has nothing to do with born again believers.



I believe Solomon was saved, because despite his sin, the Bible says he was "beloved of God." (Nehemiah 13:26)



Same as the first answer. Those who come close, who have "tasted" but ultimately reject the gospel. And if they remain in such a state of rejection until death, can not be saved.



Yes, which is our basis for rewards and place of ruling in the kingdom. Has nothing to do with losing salvation.



Set aside as useless for service. Again, has nothing to do with salvation.



Same as the above answer. Has to do with service and not salvation. He was speaking of the weak service of those in the church of Laodicea.



Yep. Those who do not believe in Jesus for salvation are not His sheep.



These have nothing to do with salvation - only service. Whatever we do we are to do as unto Christ - but again, our service is the foundation for rewards in heaven, or lack thereof.



That is speaking of the difficulty in believing in Jesus - whom we have not seen - and what He did for us. For many, it goes against common sense to believe in a man, said to be born of a virgin woman, claimed to be God, died on a cross, and then rose from the dead. Who offers salvation to anyone who will simply believe He did it for them.

Without God drawing people to Himself - nobody would seek Him. People are much too in love with their sin. Who yet think they're "good enough" to make it to heaven on their own. Ask anyone if they're a good person, and most likely they'll say yes. Ask the same people if they believe they're going to heaven, and they'll also say yes, because they "try to live a good life."

It's difficult for people to accept they are vile, filthy, wretched sinners with no hope apart from Christ.
Believe me, I know how vile and wretched I am and how hopeless I am apart from Christ. This is another in a long line of strawman arguments of yours.

I know exactly what I am, as wretched as a sinner as anyone, if not more. But my eyes are not on my sins, they are on Jesus. And like the song says, "if I keep my eyes on Jesus, I can walk on water"
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,399
659
113
41
But who's saying we retain salvation by good works?
This I do not know, I've never seen it, nor have I ever seen any comment referenced that does, otherwise I would join them in rebuking it. I think there is a fundamental difference in how we see salvation in general, do we see it as the finish line, or is it just the very beginning of our true life? A life IMPOSSIBLE to live in the flesh, and only by His power can we do ANY of this, so He gets ALL glory for ALL. I can't say how anyone feels, or what they think, but it's just the way some present it here, seems like once we are saved we are "there". Like there is no need to talk about anything moving forward, other than "you will sin still", but any mention of working for the real life "God!!", the One that just resurrected your dead spirit, and by His grace and Jesus sacrifice, reconciled that spirit to His, indwelling you, healing you, transforming you, opening your eyes, forgiving your sin, taking your heart of stone and giving you one that can now love in truth, making you whole as you were created to be, and makes it possible to actually please Him, only by His power, and all for His glory, but "I" can actually be pleasing to God now, and "want too" more than anything else. Then when a Christian actually seems to want to shut down people that proclaim this power, all to promote "I still sin", "You still sin", "we will all still sin", Tra la la la.

Outside of Christ there was no battle, and I am going to testify of the power of Jesus to change us, not crowd please by coddling soft and possibly misleading, messages of the power of sin over men in Christ still. See my point? Please somebody tell me you at least understand our my point here. And for the 63rd time, this is true, I know we do still sin, I battle my flesh every day, but the battle is the point, and the power of God. In my simple mind this baffles me this is a "debate" at all, much less one that causes such heated division. I'm told proclaiming the power of Jesus to change every bit of my life, all to point to His glory is "works salvation". "Okay???"
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,399
659
113
41
Believe me, I know how vile and wretched I am and how hopeless I am apart from Christ. This is another in a long line of strawman arguments of yours.

I know exactly what I am, as wretched as a sinner as anyone, if not more. But my eyes are not on my sins, they are on Jesus. And like the song says, "if I keep my eyes on Jesus, I can walk on water"
Amen, and you can not deny what your eye's are on, the thing that rules your heart and thoughts is what will come out of you. So if your eyes are on God and you're amazed every day by His power to love, save, and change men, then this is what you will speak, if sin is what you think and feel inside it will be all that's on your lips. Hmmm. Very interesting and true. Who is speaking and defending what, when we really break it down? At least it's there to clearly see. Praise our God for truth, and even more for the Truth, Jesus.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,997
113
Now if I had died as a fornicator, blasphemer, devil glorifying, fascinated with the occult, sorcerer, would I have gone to heaven?

There are three possible answers you could give.

a. I was never saved and am still not saved, but am self deceived.

b. I was not genuinely saved as a child, but was saved later.

c. I was saved, backslid horribly, but God brought me back, and through it all, I never stopped being His child.
C.

If I was still living the way I was living back then, and died in that condition, do you think I would go to heaven?
Yes.

When Jesus died for your sins, He died for them all - and all of your sins were still in the future. Were you still saved while you were living in that condition? Why assume it takes death to cause you to lose salvation and go to hell (which is what I'm assuming based on your premise).

Have we, or have we not been acquitted of all sins - or only the sins up until salvation?

You list grievous sins, but if even a single instance of lying is attributed to us, we are lost. The Bible says all liars will have their part in the lake of fire. (Revelation 21:8)

You claim you don't advocate a gospel of works, but you like to submit scenarios that sure seem like it.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,997
113
Believe me, I know how vile and wretched I am and how hopeless I am apart from Christ. This is another in a long line of strawman arguments of yours.

I know exactly what I am, as wretched as a sinner as anyone, if not more. But my eyes are not on my sins, they are on Jesus. And like the song says, "if I keep my eyes on Jesus, I can walk on water"
Um, that wasn't even addressed to you.