God LIED!

[PaulThomson]

Okay, now that I have your attention....

One of the main things that is troublesome to my soul, are those who believe one must strive to live the "Christian life" in order to remain saved. They believe that if you sin too much after your conversion, you can lose your salvation. Or they believe you can "give" your salvation back to God and walk away. Or, they'll say, if you don't live and act in a Christian "manner" it proves you were never saved at all.

I wanted to point out, that if one can lose their salvation, based on their performance in any way, then that makes God a liar.

Jesus said that He gives us eternal life, and that we shall never perish, and that no one can snatch us out of His, or the Father's hand. (John 3:16, 10: 28-29)

If we can lose our salvation, then we will perish, and we will indeed be snatched out of the hands of Jesus and the Father.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says that we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit which is a pledge guaranteeing our inheritance. (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 5:5)

If we can lose our salvation, then there is no guarantee of our inheritance and the seal of the Holy Spirit is conditional.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says Jesus will never leave us or forsake us. (Hebrews 13:5)

If we can lose our salvation, then Jesus has left and forsaken us.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says Jesus always lives to make intercession for us. (Hebrews 7:25)

If we can lose our salvation, then Jesus will not always make intercession for us - only while we remain saved.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says we are sealed for the Day of Redemption. (Ephesians 4:30)

If we can lose our salvation, then we are not sealed until the Day of Redemption, but only up until we are lost again.

Verdict: God LIED.

Jesus said that He will lose none of us, but will raise us up on the last day. (John 6:39)

If we can lose our salvation, then Jesus will, in fact, lose some of us, and will not raise us up on the last day.

Verdict: God LIED.

Jesus said that believers will never come into judgment, and have passed from death into life. (John 5:24)

If we can lose our salvation, then we will go back under judgment, and pass from life back into death.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says our calling is irrevocable. (Roman 11:29)

If we can lose our salvation, then our calling is indeed revocable.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says salvation is a gift from God. (Ephesians 2:8)

If we can lose our salvation, then salvation is not a gift, but a wage to be earned.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says nothing in all creation (that includes us as created beings) can separate us from the love of God. (Romans 8:38-39)

If we can lose our salvation, then something can indeed separate us from the love of God.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says God will complete the good work that He began in us. (Philippians 1:6)

If we can lose our salvation, then God's good work will not be completed.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says we have been perfected for all time. (Hebrews 10:14)

If we can lose our salvation, then we certainly are not perfected for all time.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says our inheritance is imperishable, can never spoil, and is unfading, guarded by God's power. (1 Peter 1:3-5)

If we can lose our salvation, then our inheritance will perish, will spoil, and will fade.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says if we drink from the living water that is Christ, we will never be thirsty again. (John 4:14)

If we can lose our salvation, then we will indeed be thirsty again.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says God will sustain us to the end, guiltless in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Corinthians 1:8)

If we can lose our salvation, then we will not be sustained until the day of the Lord.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says that our debt to God has been canceled through Christ Jesus. (Colossians 2:13-14)

If we can lose our salvation, our debt has not truly been canceled.

Verdict: God LIED.

Jesus said that those who are His will never hunger nor thirst again. (John 6:35)

If we can lose our salvation, then we will again hunger and thirst.

Verdict: God LIED.



So, what is your verdict? Did God lie to us when He made all of those promises, or is our salvation indeed eternal and irrevocable?

I am undecided on whether someone, once saved, will always be able to receive all that the Father gave to Jesus to give to mankind.

" John 17:1 These words Jesus spoke, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour is come; glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You:

2 Just as You have given him power over all flesh, so that everything that you have given to Him, He should give to them: aeonous life

3 And this is the aeonous life, [given] so that they might know You the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

It makes no difference to me one way or the other. None of your proof-texts, which are true, prove that someone cannot lose their intimate relationship with God and cannot find themselves alienated from God on judgment day.

One problem with your arguments by proof-texts, is that you have paraphrased the prooftext into a form that does not match what the text actually says. For instance, your last argument -

"Jesus said that those who are His will never hunger nor thirst again. (John 6:35)

If we can lose our salvation, then we will again hunger and thirst."

John does not say anywhere in the verse "those who are His". John says,

"6:34 Then said they to him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that is coming to me shall never be hungering; and he that is believing on me shall never be thirsting.

36 But I said unto you, That you also have seen me, and believe not."

It is those who are coming to Jesus for food (the word) who will never be hungering, and those who are coming to Jesus for drink (the Spirit) who will never be thirsting. One of His who is going to the world for food and drink is not promised that they will never hunger or thirst. The wastrel son was hungry, and his hunger brought him to repentance and reconciliation with his prodigal father.

The text says nothing about where the person coming to Jesus for food and drink today will be in his relationship to Jesus tomorrow, and in his relationship with God on judgment day.

 

[NilsForChrist]

Depends on the kind of fear.

Amen. See Matthew 10:28, Ecclesiastes 12:13 & Philippians 2:12.

 

[know1]

It's both. As an allegory, it includes those like Judas who had a superficial connection - an outward appearance - and those in verse 6 Jesus mentions those who do not abide in Him (not did and now no longer) meaning - unbelievers, and those believers who neglect bearing fruit for the lord. Another example being the parable of the seed and soils in Matthew 13:1-58.

But even it means true believers only, it has nothing to do with losing salvation and being cast into hell. As far as "they are burned" is concerned, neither hell, the lake of fire, or the second death is referenced at all - or any statement that indicates that this is an everlasting burning. This burning is temporal.

Born again believers can never be eternally condemned (as my OP clearly proves) but they can experience temporal judgment - even to the point of premature physical death (1 Corinthians 11:30, James 5:19-20, 1 John 5:16). But such divine discipline might not lead to premature death if the believer corrects the behavior.

Of the three branches that are mentioned, two refer to believers (those branches that bear fruit and are pruned, and those that bear no fruit, so God "lifts them up" so that they will) and the third branch that does not abide (non-believers in Christ) that are gathered up and burned.

Au contraire mon ami, even true believers can and do lose their salvation. And I can back that up multiple times with scripture without perverting, twisting, or distorting the same said word of God.
Without getting into scripture right now, I would like to tell you a dialog I had with an ordained Baptist minister, both he and his wife, who both turned atheist, after this man died three times, and only saw blackness. He said he was dead about 15 minutes twice and either an hour and 15 minutes or an hour and a half for the other time, and that superseded the word of God, which he and his wife used to believe.
Both he and his wife were believers for a long time, before a trial shook his foundation, which was on sand, or the physical world, causing him to turn from the faith.
These two people were not just new believers unsure of there being a God and so on and so forth, but went to cemetery School (yes, I said and spelled that correctly) to teach others about Christ's work on the cross for them. I say again, they both were baptist ministers, not ignorant lay people.
So he and his wife both confessed Christ at the beginning, and denied Christ in the end. Which way do you think they will go? Up or down?
I can guarantee you, based on my understanding of scripture, that these two will not see the pearly Gates of heaven. And it wasn't because they were not true believers, because they were.
And how much different were these two baptist ministers, than most Christians.
They will get sick, or something will happen to them, they'll pray, and either nothing will happen, or the situation will get worse, and they stop believing what they once believed before. That being, that God heals the believer.
They believe what the natural circumstances dictated over the word of God and therefore rejected that which is written. They are the same as the atheist. They put their faith in the natural, which is what the situation dictates, which is the sinking sand written in Scripture, over and before the written word of God. And yes, they don't go to hell, even though they stop believing a portion of the word of God. And that's because of the ministers in most cases, who convinced them that it wasn't God's will, or that it'll come in time, or that God uses doctors, medication, and/or treatments to heal them. Lies, lies, and More lies. None of which is written in Scripture.
So can a true believer lose their salvation? I say again emphatically, absolutely yes.
If you want to talk scripture on this subject, I would be more than happy to do so, to back up my point.