God's Chosen People per Romans 11

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Dec 13, 2016
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Understanding who Israel was, purely under the Old Covenant, is actually complicated.

I suspect as this is not properly taught in churches, many are unaware. Does that sound pompous? I apologize, but it has to be said.

Israel originally was all 12 tribes.

Had they disappeared?

NO !!!!!!!!!

James 1
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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The many nations is different.

This is the Promise, Chapter 12. A Great Nation.

SPIRITUAL ISRAEL LOL

I don't know what kind of priests you hang out with bro...

But spiritual and physical Israel are not mutually exclusive.

At one point the only spiritual Israel was within physical Israel.
This kind of priests... Real priests, not shadow priests.

Revelation 1:6 KJV
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
 
Dec 13, 2016
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You are a great brother Rob, you wear the armour of God like a robot armadillo, but I think you are getting too hung up on this.

There were men and women of God in the OT.

Paul has just said it, that when Elijah was fighting Jezebel, there were 7000 men of God hidden in the land.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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“[A] nation and a company of nations shall be of thee…” (Genesis 35:11).

In passing on the birthright promise the dying Jacob (Israel) said of Ephraim
and Manasseh, sons of Joseph, “…let my name be named on them” (Genesis 48:16).

It is they—the descendants of Ephraim and Manasseh not the Jews,
who are referred to in prophecy under the names of Jacob or Israel.

modern-day Israel [the state of ] is made up of the decendents of Judah and Benjamin,
and the priests the Levites. they where called the children of Israel that returned.
But they where not the house of Israel, or the no. tribes of Israel.


“For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did;

“Therefore the [Eternal] was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight:
there was none left but the tribe of Judah only” (2 Kings 17:18).

the Jews returned to there capital and land,
the no. tribes do not have there capital or land back.

-

Jeremiah 30:3 (KJV)
For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of my people
Israel and Judah, saith the Lord: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave
to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

Ezekiel 37:25 (KJV)
And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers
have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children
for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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How many were made ALIVE by following his commands and statutes?
For the wages of sin is death;
but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law:
for sin is the transgression of the law.

1 Corinthians 15:56 (KJV)
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

-well lets see, before the flood.

Genesis 6:9 (KJV)
These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man
and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Genesis 7:1 (KJV)
And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark;
for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

-

2 Peter 2:5 (KJV)
And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person,
a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

-a preacher of righteousness, so what did he preach

Psalms 119:172 (KJV)
My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

8 saved alive, out of how may that perished in that generation?

-after flood lets see

Ezekiel 20:6 (KJV)
In the day that I lifted up mine hand unto them, to bring them forth of the land of Egypt into
a land that I had espied for them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands:

Jeremiah 11:5 (KJV)
That I may perform the oath which I have sworn unto your fathers, to give them a land
flowing with milk and honey, as it is this day. Then answered I, and said, So be it, O Lord.

-

Joshua 5:6 (KJV)
For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people
that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed,

because they obeyed not the voice of the Lord: unto whom the Lord sware that he would
not shew them the land, which the Lord sware unto their fathers that he would give us,
a land that floweth with milk and honey.


“Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness…ye shall not come into the land…save Caleb?
…and Joshua… But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in,
and they shall know the land which ye have despised” (Numbers 14:29-31).

“And,” continued God, “your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years,
and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness” (verse 33).

-2 men of fighting age where saved[not die] and entered the promised land.
from a congregation of perhaps 2 or 3 million people.

This Promised Land is a type of the glorious Kingdom of God,
which the living Savior, Jesus Christ, offers us. flowing with milk and honey.



-And now comes the “day-for-a-year principle”: “After the number of the days in which
ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities,

even forty years…” And this punishment was, in fact, [a withholding]
of the promised blessing for this duration of 40 years.

That generation of Israelites was not allowed to enter the Promised Land.
Their children entered the Holy Land under Joshua’s leadership.

By his word God was bound to give the birthright promises, but he would
give it to them or there decendents, in his time frame, and obediance to him.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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You are a great brother Rob, you wear the armour of God like a robot armadillo, but I think you are getting too hung up on this.

There were men and women of God in the OT.

Paul has just said it, that when Elijah was fighting Jezebel, there were 7000 men of God hidden in the land.
You have to remember that Christ was in the church in the wilderness. Believers just like us existed in the old testament. We can agree to disagree on this... let's move on.:)
 
Dec 13, 2016
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But you seem to be saying Rob that God dispensed with physical Israel completely.

If so, when?
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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if I die, and am not saved, what does it matter?
For the wages of sin is death;

Ezekiel 33:11 (KJV)
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of
the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from
your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

if I go out, get drunk drive and die, I died because I did not love.. I was self centered..
But this has no bearing on my eternal life.
If you go out driving drunk, you are breaking the law of the land....,some call it suicide.
self centered? you risk others, What if you kill someone in your drunken state.

6Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed:
for in the image of God made he man.

-so drinking has no bearing on eternal life?

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate,
nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous,

nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Peter 5:8 (KJV)
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion,
walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

1 Peter 1:13 (KJV)
Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace
that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

-

Leviticus 10:9 (KJV)
Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee,
when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die:
it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

-

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies
a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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You are a great brother Rob, you wear the armour of God like a robot armadillo, but I think you are getting too hung up on this.

There were men and women of God in the OT.

Paul has just said it, that when Elijah was fighting Jezebel, there were 7000 men of God hidden in the land.
I completely agree that there were men and women of God in the old testament.... they were the church. Maybe this is why we aren't seeing eye to eye on this.
 
Dec 13, 2016
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i think we have different understandings of Israel.

My view is:

Israel was 12 tribes. Jesus came to Israel covenantally. The Church - now out of the wilderness and in the world - was initially Israelite, born out of the 12 tribes. In fact the Jews were very instrumental, but the Church started out of all 12 tribes.

Eventually, the bulk of Israel, the 12 tribes, took the gospel to the Nations.
The Jews, although represented in the Church, in large number were unable to unshackle themselves from the Law, and therefore rejected Christ.

Not all Israel are of Israel means that the bulk of Israel accepted their role - to take the gospel to the world.

Some Jews however did not fulfil that.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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This kind of priests... Real priests, not shadow priests.Revelation 1:6 KJVAnd hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Other translations say 'a kingdom of priests.' Exodus 19:6 in the KJVAnd ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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i think we have different understandings of Israel.

My view is:

Israel was 12 tribes. Jesus came to Israel covenantally. The Church - now out of the wilderness and in the world - was initially Israelite, born out of the 12 tribes. In fact the Jews were very instrumental, but the Church started out of all 12 tribes.

Eventually, the bulk of Israel, the 12 tribes, took the gospel to the Nations.
The Jews, although represented in the Church, in large number were unable to unshackle themselves from the Law, and therefore rejected Christ.

Not all Israel are of Israel means that the bulk of Israel accepted their role - to take the gospel to the world.

Some Jews however did not fulfil that.
Wouldn't Abraham and Noah be part of the church also? Both believed God and both were saved.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Other translations say 'a kingdom of priests.' Exodus 19:6 in the KJVAnd ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
There's no difference between the two is there? All believers are a kingdom of priests.
 

Awakened

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2016
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i think we have different understandings of Israel.

My view is:

Israel was 12 tribes. Jesus came to Israel covenantally. The Church - now out of the wilderness and in the world - was initially Israelite, born out of the 12 tribes. In fact the Jews were very instrumental, but the Church started out of all 12 tribes.

Eventually, the bulk of Israel, the 12 tribes, took the gospel to the Nations.
The Jews, although represented in the Church, in large number were unable to unshackle themselves from the Law, and therefore rejected Christ.

Not all Israel are of Israel means that the bulk of Israel accepted their role - to take the gospel to the world.

Some Jews however did not fulfil that.
This is something I've been trying to learn. I thought this article was interesting.* ☺

Some Christians are of the opinion that the Jews of today represent all 12 tribes of Israel, others believe that they only represent two.

Jewish scholars hold the position that the Jews represent only 2 tribes: Judah and Benjamin. In their opinion the 10 tribes are still "lost.

(1) They’re lost and will some day be reunited with Judah (The minority point-of-view):

"The people known as Jews are the descendants of the Tribes of Judah and Benjamin, with a certain number of the Tribe of Levi. So far as is known, there is not any further admixture of other tribes. The Ten Tribes have been absorbed among the nations of the world. The Jews look forward to the gathering of all the tribes at some future date" (Dr. Hertz -- Chief Rabbi of the British Empire. 1918).

"While not a link is missing of the historical chain so far as the romance of the House of Judah is concerned, the Israelites who were subjected by the Assyrian power disappear from the page of history as suddenly and completely as though the land of their captivity had swallowed them up...the Ten Tribes are certainly in existence, all that has to be done is to discover which people represent them" (, May 22, 1879).

“The captives of Israel exiled beyond the Euphrates did not return as a whole to Palestine along with their brethren the captives of Judah; at least there is no mention made of this event in the documents at our disposal…In fact, the return of the ten tribes was one of the great promises of the Prophets, and the advent of the Messiah is therefore necessarily identified with the epoch of their redemption” (, Vol. I -- 1888, pages 15, 17).

“Until the arrival of the Prophet Elijah and the Messiah, no member of any of the Ten Tribes shall be accepted (for the purpose of marriage) into the Jewish people” (Rabbi Rafael Eisenberg,, p. 138)

(2) They intermarried and were absorbed into surrounding nations and races. They’ll never return (The majority point-of-view):

The people were transported eastward, and a new population was brought in westward. The transported Israelites became the “ten lost tribes”; in reality these were absorbed by the people of the lands to which they were transported and they disappeared” ( by Samuel Sandmel, p. 20).

“Thus were the people led away into distant provinces of the [Assyrian] empire and became colonized with strangers, and the Kingdom of Israel became a tale that is told” ( by Rufus Learsi, p. 79).

“…but in general it can be said that they disappeared from the stage of history” (, vol. 15, p. 1004).

“These are the Ten Lost Tribes; lost not as a jewel is lost on the road, perhaps to be found again, but as a drop of wine is lost in an ocean of water, dissolved, gone” (, by Leo Trepp, p. 14).

“The Ten Tribes of Israel were not even permitted like the sister kingdom of Judah, to bequeath to later ages…the memory of rich and varied destinies. They were irretrievably lost” (C. and A. D. Rothschild, , Vol. 1, page 489).

“The Jews do not claim to represent the Twelve Tribes for the Ten Tribes never returned from captivity and are lost to history” (Rabbi Aaron Werner, when asked by Dr. Schiffner, '').

“So, to condense this massive summary all down to one sentence: the ten lost tribes were conquered, and, like almost every other conquered people in the ancient world, lost their separate identity and were assimilated away into the sands of history” (Collective summaries from Eli Barnavi's , Judah Gribetz's , Joseph Telushkin's , and the ).
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Romans 11:11-12 KJV
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
[12] Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

I don't understand these two verses, it almost seems like they contradict each other.

In verse 11 - "Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid:...". This sounds like they did not fall.

Verse 12 - "Now if the fall of them....". This sounds like they fell. Any thoughts on this?
 
Dec 13, 2016
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Steve Collins says some of them became Parthia. The Magi were Parthians.

Baram Blackett talks extensively about Welsh history, its oral and written records, most of which were destroyed in the 19th Century.

These guys do have a tendency to be a bit odd, but if you filter that out, and don't knee jerk dismiss them as cranks, the history is very very interesting.

---

I think Biblically speaking, it only really matters up to Jesus, as I believe he sent the apostles to the 12 tribes, in fulfilment of prophecy. Thereafter I am not sure it really matters.

When it comes to History generally, I think Napoleon was the wisest. After taking over the papacy, he sat in the Vatican library for several weeks.

When he came out he declared:

"History is a fable generally agreed upon"