God's Intervention?

[John146]

Think of the life of Moses.. Do you think God foreknowing that He would use Moses to lead His people out of Egypt.. caused Moses to escape from being killed at birth? ( that was the order of pharoah for all hebrew babies to be killed at birth) Did God intervene when Moses was a baby in the basket in the reeds when a servant of a Egyptian princess found him and saved him from certain death.. Did God work on the heart of the princess to cuase her to take pity upon baby Moses to adopt him and raise him up so as he would know egyptian high culture so as to be able later to converse with pharaoh.. Now did baby Moses ever pray for Gods intervention to save him when He was an infant? No..

I am sure you have read the story of the prophet Jeremiah who God foreknew and had predetermined to make Him a prophet over the people..

(Jeremiah 1:4-7) "Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, {5} Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. {6} Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. {7} ¶ But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak."

Jeremiah never prayed for this.. He was a kid at the time...

David knew God’s mind Could be changed after he has declared his son was going to die. David fasted and wept because he knew there’s a chance God may not do what he said he would do.

2 Samuel 12:22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

 

[Musicmaster]

God's character determines His intervention. This has nothing to do with "control" but everything to do with the grace and mercy of God. How come you are so thoroughly confused?

There are ways to discuss things, and ways not to. Productive dialogue involves that other element called "common courtesy." Taking personal jabs at others before you even fully understanding as to what I'm saying , that's just plain juvenile when it comes to the level measure for dialogue. If you can't restrain yourself and keep the topic in the center of our words to one another, then we are at an impasse, because nothing productive will ever arise from further discussion until we can get past this nonsense of making it personal...otherwise known as scraping against the surface barrier of ad hominem.

MM

 

[Nehemiah6]

Taking personal jabs at others before you even fully understanding as to what I'm saying , that's just plain juvenile when it comes to the level measure for dialogue

Sorry for giving offence. But you are simply sowing seeds of spiritual confusion. Others have also noted that.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Sorry for giving offence. But you are simply sowing seeds of spiritual confusion. Others have also noted that.

He's just trying to turn the tables on you. Because he couldn't refute your post (#78).


🦜

 

[Nehemiah6]

Yes, there are certain things God has determined ahead of time to accomplish his purpose. There are other things that he has not determined and has chosen not to know until man makes the decision when confronted with his word.

But Scripture says that God knows every thought and intent of the heart and noting is hid from His sight..

 

[John146]

But Scripture says that God knows every thought and intent of the heart and noting is hid from His sight..

Yes, God even knows your thoughts and intent. That is knowledge to be known by God. I do not disagree.

 

[Nehemiah6]

That is knowledge to be known by God.

Not "TO BE KNOWN" but already known. Big difference. You are another one limiting God.

 

[Musicmaster]

Sorry for giving offence. But you are simply sowing seeds of spiritual confusion. Others have also noted that.

Then all one need do is ask. For the benefit of all, we can look at a solid example with which all can related:

Adam's fall into sin was completely within the Lord's plans for this world. Had that not been the case, then it can be said that:

1) the Lord is caught by surprise when the fall happened, for which there are no indication anywhere in scripture,
2) the Lord would not have endangered His creation by pacing that tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in that garden,
3) The Lord would not have allowed that serpent into the garden that initiated that fall.

There are no other possible alternatives, even though we, in our fallen state, may imagine all manner of what we consider possible alternatives...in reality there never were any.

So, any scenario one may put forth as the Lord allegedly intervening, it can be asked of each and every one how any one of us can possibly know that the Lord did not enact the very course of things as we have seen them happen to date. After all, Christ was slain from the foundation of the world, and so there was no other possible course, no matter what we may imagine in our fallen state here in this fallen world.

MM

 

[Nehemiah6]

So, any scenario one may put forth as the Lord allegedly intervening, it can be asked of each and every one how any one of us can possibly know that the Lord did not enact the very course of things as we have seen them happen to date.

You are confusing divine foreknowledge (which is a part of the omniscience of God) with God's interventions in human history. Take the example of the deliverance of the Israelites from Egypt and their entry into the promised land. God would have already known the end from the beginning, including the role of Moses. But did God intervene throughout? Absolutely. Every plague in Egypt was via divine intervention. So divine foreknowledge does not cancel divine intervention at all.

As to the sacrifice of Christ, that was one of the few things which was predetermined by God. However, God does not predetermine everything, or too many things (as per Reformed Theology). Otherwise He would be held accountable for all the sin and evil and wickedness in this world.

 

[ThyKingdomComeSoon]

Then all one need do is ask. For the benefit of all, we can look at a solid example with which all can related:

Adam's fall into sin was completely within the Lord's plans for this world. Had that not been the case, then it can be said that:

1) the Lord is caught by surprise when the fall happened, for which there are no indication anywhere in scripture,
2) the Lord would not have endangered His creation by pacing that tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in that garden,
3) The Lord would not have allowed that serpent into the garden that initiated that fall.

There are no other possible alternatives, even though we, in our fallen state, may imagine all manner of what we consider possible alternatives...in reality there never were any.

So, any scenario one may put forth as the Lord allegedly intervening, it can be asked of each and every one how any one of us can possibly know that the Lord did not enact the very course of things as we have seen them happen to date. After all, Christ was slain from the foundation of the world, and so there was no other possible course, no matter what we may imagine in our fallen state here in this fallen world.

MM

Many things you do not understand, the lord does not plan for humanity to fail, humanity in general except those who obey the lord fails by on their own accord because they do not listen to the lord, they refuse his blessings and holiness just like Satan did. We are here to make a choice, the lord wants for us to be HOLY like he is HOLY. What you wrote is the result of you not believing that the lord is all powerful HOLY, Perfect in every way and a loving father that do not wish any harm to his children, yes we are his children and should act like it.

All the evil of this world is the result of disobedience and choosing the wrong way. Never doubt GOD in any way. Instead , Doubt of your own faulty rantings.

Furthermore what you write here will cause confusion for those who are not strong in their faith, be careful what you write here, do not use deceptive words to negate GOD.

Peace.

 

[John146]

Not "TO BE KNOWN" but already known. Big difference. You are another one limiting God.

Yes, already known. My view of God is a biblical view, not a logical, man made view. There are examples after examples of God repenting, changing his mind based upon man’s response to his word. It’s called grace.

 

[John146]

Then all one need do is ask. For the benefit of all, we can look at a solid example with which all can related:

Adam's fall into sin was completely within the Lord's plans for this world. Had that not been the case, then it can be said that:

1) the Lord is caught by surprise when the fall happened, for which there are no indication anywhere in scripture,
2) the Lord would not have endangered His creation by pacing that tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in that garden,
3) The Lord would not have allowed that serpent into the garden that initiated that fall.

There are no other possible alternatives, even though we, in our fallen state, may imagine all manner of what we consider possible alternatives...in reality there never were any.

So, any scenario one may put forth as the Lord allegedly intervening, it can be asked of each and every one how any one of us can possibly know that the Lord did not enact the very course of things as we have seen them happen to date. After all, Christ was slain from the foundation of the world, and so there was no other possible course, no matter what we may imagine in our fallen state here in this fallen world.

MM

You are stating that sin is a part of God’s plan. I reject your view of God. That is not the view of scripture.

 

[John146]

Then all one need do is ask. For the benefit of all, we can look at a solid example with which all can related:

Adam's fall into sin was completely within the Lord's plans for this world. Had that not been the case, then it can be said that:

1) the Lord is caught by surprise when the fall happened, for which there are no indication anywhere in scripture,
2) the Lord would not have endangered His creation by pacing that tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in that garden,
3) The Lord would not have allowed that serpent into the garden that initiated that fall.

There are no other possible alternatives, even though we, in our fallen state, may imagine all manner of what we consider possible alternatives...in reality there never were any.

So, any scenario one may put forth as the Lord allegedly intervening, it can be asked of each and every one how any one of us can possibly know that the Lord did not enact the very course of things as we have seen them happen to date. After all, Christ was slain from the foundation of the world, and so there was no other possible course, no matter what we may imagine in our fallen state here in this fallen world.

MM

As if you state the only choices possible.

1. God was not caught by surprise, but knew the correct course of action if man decides to disobey.
2. God wants man to choose obedience to his word. In order to choose rightly, there must be an alternative and consequences.

 

[Nehemiah6]

There are examples after examples of God repenting, changing his mind based upon man’s response to his word. It’s called grace.

True. But in all cases, God knew the end from the beginning. However He wanted us to see how He responds to men, and even changes His mind. The book of Jonah is a good example.

 

[John146]

God knew the end from the beginning

God knew what from the beginning? The end...why make this to mean anything other than that. We now know the end as well. Ever read the book of Revelation? We just didn't know it from the beginning.

God did not do to Nineveh what he said he was going to do. Why? Nineveh's response to his word. They repented, so God repented in return. To say that God knew this ahead of time, makes God out to be a liar, for he stated that he was going to destroy them in forty days.

 

[John146]

True. But in all cases, God knew the end from the beginning. However He wanted us to see how He responds to men, and even changes His mind. The book of Jonah is a good example.

David knew that God's mind could be changed concerning things that he had declared. It's called grace.

2 Samuel 12
14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the Lord struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.
16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.
17 And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them.
18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?
19 But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.
20 Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the Lord, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.
21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

Even though God declared that the child was going to die, David knew if he fasted and prayed, there's a chance God would be gracious and allow the child to live.

 

[p_rehbein]

Huh?

There are some hyper-charismatics out there who teach about God's alleged "intervening power."

What is that? How does that work? Where does the Bible elude to such a power that actually needs to be exercised at all by the Most High?

I found an instance where the word "intervene" exists in English translations, specifically in the NIV for Isaiah 59:16, which is not a reference to God at all, and the NKJV for Zephaniah 2:7, which IS a reference to an act by God, but is not necessarily the best translated word in that instance, and is therefore misleading.

Why?

Well, to say that the Lord must intervene in any life or event in this world is to imply that the Lord does not exercise His powerful control over even the atoms in this universe. I like how Justin Peters put it when referring to the most distant galaxy, billions of light years from earth, and point to just one random atom in the center of a random star, a Hydrogen atom, and observing that the Lord is actively holding that atom together, even though it's too far away to have any measurable effect upon us here, on this planet...even there His consisting power is holding that atom together.

Collasians 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon defines the Greek word translated "consist" in this way:

"to cohere, hold together: τά πάντα συνέστηκεν ἐν αὐτῷ, Colossians 1:17"

Without that consistent, never relaxed for an instant, power, the entire universe, including our bodies, would "come unglued." Yes, everything would become vapor and just expand outward through space.

Therefore, to presume the Lord is as the Deists believe, in that He wound things up like a clock spring, only to occasionally return and "intervene" where He had lost control because of boredom or some other "deific malady" Deists presume about THEIR god...no. The Lord is always engaged and in total control to the extend that He never needs to intervene. Every event, every happening, even crime, every blessing, every healing, every death from disease...it ALL is within the purview of His Sovereign oversight.

What are your thoughts?

MM

You do not address "free will" here. Do you not believe in free will?

 

[Musicmaster]

You do not address "free will" here. Do you not believe in free will?

Absolutely there is free will. How would there not be? I've encountered people who posit the idea that God's foreknowledge somehow creates a crisis with free will. They never do legitimize their assumption with rational discussion. All they do is ask the question.

So, God's total control can still leave room for each person to make their own choices. If that were not the case, then each one of us would have a legitimate claim against being responsible for our sin.

MM

 

[John146]

Absolutely there is free will. How would there not be? I've encountered people who posit the idea that God's foreknowledge somehow creates a crisis with free will. They never do legitimize their assumption with rational discussion. All they do is ask the question.

So, God's total control can still leave room for each person to make their own choices. If that were not the case, then each one of us would have a legitimate claim against being responsible for our sin.

MM

Do you believe in the power of prayer? Can prayer change things? Is God reachable through our prayers?

 

[Musicmaster]

As if you state the only choices possible.

1. God was not caught by surprise, but knew the correct course of action if man decides to disobey.
2. God wants man to choose obedience to his word. In order to choose rightly, there must be an alternative and consequences.

Those are not legitimate scenarios. If the Lord had intended for sin to not become a reality, then that tree and that serpent would not have been in the garden. The Lord knew Satan was going to become prideful and fall, just as He knew man would choose disobedience and sin. Given all that, there were not other alternatives that would ever have been possible. Many people I have met love to imagine the world had sin not entered it, and that scenario is vain because it did not move in the direction of God's ultimate outcome.

MM