GOD'S SABBATH AND THE REAL TRUTH OF COL 2:14-17 WHO DO WE BELIEVE GOD or MAN?

[mailmandan]

Too many people don't understand the complete gospel message.

Jesus said the law was eternal.
Sin is transgression of the law.
Jesus sacrificed Himself so any accepting Him as savior has their sins forgiven.

Without the law there is no sin. There are 613 rules in the law as written in the Torah. No one has the ability to keep all of them.

We are not justified by works of the law. The Gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).

To “believe” the Gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. The Gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws or statutes to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.

The Gospel is not salvation by obeying the 10 commandments or keeping the Sabbath day. That is a "different" gospel.

1 Corinthians 1:21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who BELIEVE.

 

[LoveGodForever]

I did not say you said Jesus sinned, I asked you straight up (no implication) if you thought He did since YOU say working on the Sabbath is a sin, and Jesus worked on the Sabbath. Are you hard of comprehending? Do you have any other non-existent examples?

Well that is not true; No Implication? (underlined below)....

Originally Posted by Magenta

Jesus worked on the Sabbath, but according to you, that is a sin Did Jesus sin?
PS: I already know the answer I just wonder how you square that with your beliefs.

My reply....

Are you sure you know the answer Magenta. You say things in your post like your friends that I have never said or believe. Your interpretation of the scriptures seem mixed up. Do you know the answer? I do not know if you do or not.

Did Jesus sin? Of course he did not. If he did then he would not be our perfect sacrifice. The LAW requires death of the SINNER. If Jesus sinned then how can he die in our behalf for the death that we deserve? If he had sinned already then he is accountable for his own sin and no one elses.

Jesus was always doing his fathers work (Not secular or business work which would be breaking the 4th Commandment).

Jesus taught that it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath to heal and help others. The Jews through their traditions made Sabbath keeping a burden to the people in their interpretation on how to keep it.

Jesus came to teach that the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath and it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath exposing the traditions of th Jews in place of the Word of God.

This is the same today. God says Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy. The Roman Catholic Church say NO we will keep Sunday in it's place and all must bow down to follow our tradition.

The Mother church has brought up her daughters well (Rev 17:5). Today you follow Sunday worship a traditions of the Roman Catholic Church that breaks the Commandments of God. You are indeed Roman Catholic.

...................

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.

Hmm not really going the way you expected now is it?

Only God's Word is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it. Following Catholic teachings that break the Commandments is following another Jesus.

 

[LoveGodForever]

We are not justified by works of the law. The Gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).

To “believe” the Gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. The Gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws or statutes to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.

The Gospel is not salvation by obeying the 10 commandments or keeping the Sabbath day. That is a "different" gospel.

1 Corinthians 1:21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who BELIEVE.

Always building but never being able to come to an understanding of God's WORD. Having a form of Godliness but denying the POWER thereof.
How can you know the truth if you do not KNOW what the Gospel is? You build your house on sifting sand and great has been the fall thereof.

Still waiting for your response to my post earlier about your Gospel that you are teaching???

1. How can you have GRACE if you do not have God's LAW (10 Commandments)?

2. What is the purpose of God's LAW (10 Commandments)

We are told the SIN is breaking God's Commandments and that it is through God's LAW (10 Commandments) that we have a KNOWLEDGE of SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS (1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7; James 2:11; Romans 3:20; Ps 119:172).

3. Now if there is no longer any LAW then how do you know what SIN is?

4. If you do not KNOW what SIN is how do you KNOW your NEED of a Saviour?

5.If you have NO NEED of a Savior because you do NOT KNOW what SIN is how can you have SALVATION?

If there is NO LAW then nothing matters because in your view everyone is FREE to SIN. Yet God's Word does not teach anything like this whatsoever.

You indeed teach another Gospel and another Jesus.

SIN will keep all who practice it OUT of God's KINGDOM. Only God's Word is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it.

....................

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.

 

[LoveGodForever]

WHAT IS THE GOSPEL?

The Gospel is JESUS <Jesus means Savior; John 1:29> and JESUS is THE WORD OF GOD (John 1:1-14; 17:17; 14:6). THE WORD OF GOD is the GOSPEL BECAUSE BY FAITH IT IS OUR SAVIOR and this the IS GOOD NEWS to those who BELIEVE. (John 1:1-14; John 1:29; John 17:17; 14:6; Matthew 4:4)

The death, burial and resurrection of Christ is a very important part of the Gospel but is that all there is to the Gospel?

Lets look at God's Word.......

The Gospel means; G2098 εὐαγγέλιον euaggelion (ev-an-ğe'-liy-on) n. a good message; Good news).

Ok I think most know that the word Gospel means good news or a good message. So if you only believe that the Gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Christ, how do you harmonize the following scriptures......

After Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist.....

Mark 1
15, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS AT HAND REPENT AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL.

Wait a minute? Jesus is ONLY JUST STARTING HIS MINISTRY and has NOT DIED, has not been buried and if he has not died and not been buried he certainly has not been resurrected. Yet here we have Jesus BEGINNING his MINISTRY and preaching the GOSPEL

and again..................

Mark 8
35, For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but WHOSOEVER SHALL LOSE HIS LIFE FOR MY SAKE AND THE GOSPELS, THE SAME SHALL SAVE IT.

Well here we have it again the Gospel is being preached BEFORE the death of Jesus and again......

Matthew 4
23, And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and PREACHING THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Seems like Matthew and Mark both agree that Jesus is preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom before the death of Jesus...

Matthew 9
35, And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and PREACHING THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

Yep Jesus still going about everywhere preaching the Gospel. His whole Ministry BEFORE His DEATH was preaching the GOSPEL..

Matthew 11
4, Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5, The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and THE POOR HAVE THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM.

and again..............

Matthew 24
14, And this GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM SHALL BE PREACHED IN ALL THE WORLD for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Yep Jesus is still preaching the Gospel before His Death and Resurrection. Mathew and Mark both agree.....
Luke talks about Jesus in the Synagogue.....
Luke 7
22, Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED.

Yep Matthew, Mark and Luke all agree the Gospel was being preached BEFORE the DEATH, BURIAL AND RESURRECTION OF JESUS.......

Luke 20
1, And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and PREACHED THE GOSPEL, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders,

Yep there goes Jesus again teaching the people in the temple and preaching the GOSPEL before the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.....

So ok lets bring it all together............

The Good New (Gospel) is JESUS and Jesus is the WORD OF GOD. It is the WORD OF GOD THAT IS THE GOSPEL that we are to BELIEVE IN AND LIVE BY. (Matt 4:4; John 1-1-4; John 3:16). Why do you say it is a "works based doctrine" when we have to BELIEVE EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD? It is by GRACE that we are SAVED <HOW?> THROUGH FAITH and NOT of your selves it is a GIFT of GOD and NOT of WORKS LEST ANY MAN should boast.

Now if you do not know what the GOSPEL is how can you preach it to others? Man does not live by bread alone but by EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the MOUTH of GOD.

Jesus's ministry started since he was a child but more so after the Baptism of John and his temptation in the wilderness where he soon after started preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and REPENT FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS AT HAND! (Matthew 4:17; 23; 9:35; 11:5; 24:14; 26:16)

Did you know that the Gospel was being preached BEFORE the NEW Testament scriptures (Hebrews 4:2)? The GOSPEL is indeed JESUS; the Word of God and he is the good news of the Old and NEW Testament scripture that we are to BELIEVE and FOLLOW.

The Gospel is JESUS <Jesus means Savior; John 1:29> and JESUS is THE WORD OF GOD (John 1:1-14; 17:17; 14:6). THE WORD OF GOD is the GOSPEL BECAUSE BY FAITH IT IS OUR SAVIOR and this the IS GOOD NEWS to those who BELIEVE. (John 1:1-14; John 1:29; John 17:17; 14:6; Matthew 4:4)

Mark 1:1
The beginning of the GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST; THE SON OF GOD <the WORD OF GOD; John 1:1-14; 17:17; 14:6>

THE GOSPEL WAS PREACHED IN THE OLD TESTAMENT....

Galatains 3
8, And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, PREACHED BEFORE THE GOSPEL UNTO ABRAHAM, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Yep once again seems like Abraham had the Gospel in his day in the OLD Testament well before Mt Sinai...

Luke 4
17, And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because HE HAS ANNOTATED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Well it seems like Isaiah from the OLD TESTAMENT knew about the Gospel (Isaiah 52:7 pointing to Jesus in Luke 7:22) so the Gospel indeed was being preached BEFORE the DEATH, BURIAL AND RESURRECTION OF JESUS even in the OLD TESTAMENT.......The Gospel was preached to God's people leaving Egypt...

Context...

Hebrews 3
7, Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9, When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10, Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11, So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.
12, Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13, But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14, For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15, While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16, For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17, But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18, And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19, So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Continuing...

Hebrews 4
1, Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2, FOR UNTO US WAS THE GOSPEL PREACHED AS WELL AS UNTO THEM; BUT THE WORD PREACHED DID NOT PROFIT THEM NOT BEING MIXED WITH FAITH IN THEM THAT HEARD IT.
3, For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4, For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

In summary....

* The "GOSPEL" meaning is simply "Good News"
* The "GOSPEL" was being preached in the OLD TESTAMENT as well as the NEW TESTAMENT scriptures
* JESUS preached the "GOSPEL" BEFORE his death buriel and resurrection

The "Gospel" (good news) is EVERY Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God and it is God's Word that we are to live by and have life (Matthew 4:4). The "Gospel" was being preached before the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus (e.g. Mark 1:15; 8:35; Matthew 4:23; Matthew 9:35; 11:5; 24:14; Luke 4:18; 7:22; 20:11)

The Good New (Gospel) is indeed Jesus, His life, death, resurrection and new administration as our great high priest, but Jesus is the Word of God. The Gospel is the WORD OF GOD and it is the WORD OF GOD that we are to BELIEVE and live by. (Matthew 4:4; John 1-1-4; John 3:16).

If we are NOT BELIEVING and LIVING by the WORD OF GOD we have yet to experience God's GRACE through FAITH, because OBEDIENCE is the FRUIT of FAITH. If their is NO FRUIT you are still in your SINS and do not know him who LOVES ALL (1 John 3:3-10; James 2:18; 20; 26; Hebrews 10:26-27; 6:4-8).

If you do not agree with anything I have posted by all means please address the posts and the scriptures provided in the posts and your reasons why you disagree with supporting scriptures.

If you cannot why do you not BELIEVE the Gospel is God's Word? If you do not know what the Gospel is then you are building your house on the sand and great shall be the fall thereof.

God loves you and wants you to be ready for his return. If you hear his voice please harden not your heart. Search the scriptures and see if these things be so.

.............

In times of ignorance God winks at but now calls all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30-31). God's Word says if we break one of the ten we stand guilty before God of breaking all the commandments of God (James 2:8-12). God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) and if we break it like any of the other commandments we stand guilty before God of SIN (Exodus 20:1-17).

If we break any of God’s Laws we stand guilty before God in SIN (James 2:11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20). This includes the 4th commandment which is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

 

[LoveGodForever]

He did not even quote Acts 15. And your post does not even really prove anything. Rather post stuff like this why not actually post a post that deals with the Scriptures you say they are understanding incorrectly. Then when they respond to you again you post a response to those Scriptures; and so on.

Good points LB,

This is what I have been trying to say as well but it seems those of the once saved always saved group cannot deal with God's Word and adress the scriptures but feel it easier to attack the messengers of the Word.

This is what their fathers did to Jesus and the Apostles and to the prophets before them.

Only God's Word is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW him who calls us in LOVE to LOVE...

...........

In times of ignorance God winks at but now calls all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30-31). God's Word says if we break one of the ten we stand guilty before God of breaking all the commandments of God (James 2:8-12). God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) and if we break it like any of the other commandments we stand guilty before God of SIN (Exodus 20:1-17).

If we break any of God’s Laws we stand guilty before God in SIN (James 2:11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20). This includes the 4th commandment which is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

 

[Gabriel2020]

Earthly law for the unsaved, and spiritual law for the saved. same law fulfilled.

 

[Magenta]

Well that is not true; No Implication? (underlined below)....

My reply....

Hmm not really going the way you expected now is it?

Only God's Word is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it. Following Catholic teachings that break the Commandments is following another Jesus.

The way I expect it to? That you would lie, and misrepresent, and refuse to admit you were wrong, and cannot answer a simple yes or no question? Well, if those were my expectations, you lived up to them to a tee.

Now, please answer. Since Jesus worked on the Sabbath, is it a sin to do so, as you claim it is?

Please none of your obfuscations, false accusations, and empty condemnations.

Yes or no will suffice. Anything more than that is from the evil one. Jesus said so!

 

[garee]

Always building but never being able to come to an understanding of God's WORD. Having a form of Godliness but denying the POWER thereof.
How can you know the truth if you do not KNOW what the Gospel is? You build your house on sifting sand and great has been the fall thereof.

Still waiting for your response to my post earlier about your Gospel that you are teaching???

1. How can you have GRACE if you do not have God's LAW (10 Commandments)?

2. What is the purpose of God's LAW (10 Commandments

What is the purpose of the one ceremonial law found among the moral laws?

Are they more than shadows ?

 

[Gabriel2020]

The believers continued in the Laws after they were saved, because it was of all the Israelites to perform as it had been written. The only one that came to an end was the daily sacrifice for sins, because Jesus ended that once and for all. He was the last sacrifice for sin. Gentiles had not much knowledge of the law, or even kept them. what they knew was what they learned from the Jews. Even though the law was still valid, he told his chosen people to stop performing them because these sacrifices was not pleasing him, because their hearts was far from him. What he really wanted from them was their hearts

 

[LoveGodForever]

The way I expect it to? That you would lie, and misrepresent, and refuse to admit you were wrong, and cannot answer a simple yes or no question? Well, if those were my expectations, you lived up to them to a tee. Now, please answer. Since Jesus worked on the Sabbath, is it a sin to do so, as you claim it is? Please none of your obfuscations, false accusations, and empty condemnations. Yes or no will suffice. Anything more than that is from the evil one. Jesus said so!

Hello Megenta

Everything has been answered and shown for what it is here in post # 4622 (linked for all to see). Simply saying otherwise is indeed a lie on your part. I will leave that between you and God.

Trying to cover your tracks in order for follow your Catholic traditions and bearing false witness only shows what your fruit is.

Sin will keep all who practice it out of God's KINGDOM. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgement day.

.............

In times of ignorance God winks at but now calls all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30-31). God's Word says if we break one of the ten we stand guilty before God of breaking all the commandments of God (James 2:8-12). God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) and if we break it like any of the other commandments we stand guilty before God of SIN (Exodus 20:1-17).

If we break any of God’s Laws we stand guilty before God in SIN (James 2:11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20). This includes the 4th commandment which is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

 

[LoveGodForever]

What is the purpose of the one ceremonial law found among the moral laws?

Are they more than shadows ?

There is no ceremonial laws in the 10 Commandments only a memorial law which is toi remember the God of creation who set aside the 7th day of the week making it a Holy day were no work was to be conducted.

 

[LoveGodForever]

Thank you for sharing your viewpoint.

May I share with you my own thoughts on this? I trust you don't mind (even though I suppose it's a bit of a diversion from the original topic of this thread...)

We could also chat with private messages instead, if you prefer?

Anyway, here's my viewpoint:


1. A. Dt. 30:1-8 is not yet fulfilled.
B. Dt. 30:1-8 guarantees the restoration of priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience.
C. Priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience will occur in the future.

2. A. Eze. 40-47 is not yet fulfilled.
B. Eze. 40-47 guarantees the restoration of priestly/Levitical/sacrificial activity.

C. Priestly/Levitical/sacrificial activity will occur in the future.​

3. A. Jer. 33:20-22 is not yet fulfilled.

B. Jer. 33:20-22 guarantees the restoration of priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience.
C. Priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience will occur in the future.

4. A. Zec. 14 guarantees future GLOBAL participation in the sacrifice-laden feast of Sukkot (with punishment upon the nations who do not participate).
B. Therefore, global participation in sacrifice-laden feasts will occur in the future, and it will be required, and it will be good to obey, and it will be bad to disobey.

5. A. Mal. 3:1-4 guarantees that the Messiah will RESTORE the covenant with Levi, complete with sacrifices to be offered again in the future.
B. We should not oppose what the Messiah will come to restore in the forthcoming kingdom rule.

6. A. Is. 66 guarantees future restoration of Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activities associated with new moon and Sabbath observance.
B. We should not oppose what Isaiah guarantees will occur in the future.

7.A. The Old Covenant is READY (Gr. "engoos", Heb. 8:13) to disappear.
B. That which is ready to disappear has NOT yet disappeared (from the meaning of "engoos").
C. The Old Covenant was still in force (as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of Hebrews) (from B).
D. The inauguration of the New Covenant does NOT entail termination of the Old Covenant (from C).
E. Old Covenant Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activities are good and proper to persist into the New Covenant era (from D).

8. A. Many New-Covenant-era priests were disciples of the Messiah (Ac. 6:7).
B. Priests perform sacrificial/priestly/Levitical duties.
C. Priestly sacrificial/Levitical duties are acceptable in the New-Covenant-era.

9. A. Thousands of first-century disciples were zealous for Torah (Ac. 21:20).
B. Torah-obedience requires sacrificial/priestly/Levitical duties (when performed properly).
C. Thousands of first-century disciples were zealous for Torah-obedient sacrificial/priestly/Levitical activity.
D. These disciples encouraged Paul (and Paul agreed!) to condone a vow (evidently the sacrifice-laden Nazirite vow) for the purpose of publicly affirming that Paul likewise walked orderly according to the Torah.
E. Sacrifices are, thus, affirmed as a valid ongoing New-Covenant-era practice.

​

10. A. Sabbath Torah is (present tense!) a shadow of the substance in Christ (Col. 2:16-17).
B. Col. 2 was written after the inauguration of the New-Covenant era.
C. Col. 2 is, thus, evidence that Sabbath Torah (which, of course, includes associated sacrificial activity when properly performed) is an ONGOING FUNCTIONING SHADOW which CONTINUES to point to the substance in Christ.

11. A. Christians are included as fellow Israelites who partake in the Torah-laden covenants between YHVH and Israel (Eph. 2).
B. The covenants (Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic, and New) are all still in force, and we Christians partake in these covenants (plural! Eph. 2:12).
C. The covenants entail Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activity when properly performed.
D. Thus, we Christians should condone the proper restoration and participation in the Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activities associated with the Torah-laden covenants in which they participate.


CONCLUSION: We appear to have pretty good evidence which confirms that Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activity is good and proper and forthcoming.

Yes, sin offerings point to the Lamb of God (Jesus) who is the ultimate sin-offering on our behalf. But this is no excuse to terminate the ONGOING SHADOW FUNCTION authorized by Scripture, affirmed by Scripture, and guaranteed (in Scripture) to properly occur in the future, just as it also properly occurred even AFTER the inauguration of the New Covenant in the first century.

Anyways...just wanted to urge you to reconsider your viewpoint, because it appears to be at odds with the Scriptural considerations I've now set forth.

ok...blessings to you.

Hi BibleGuy,

I think this may be better for another thread as it is a bit sidetracked from the OP here. If you start up another thread send me a link I will be happy to comment. Although could I ask for some clarification here?

When you say that the priestly/Levitical/sacrificial is to be restored are you talking about offering animal sacrifices and sin offereings here on earth? Wouldn't this make a mockery of the work that Jesus has done already on our behalf as our sacrifice for sin?

How do your thoughts above fit in with the NEW Covenant and their fulfillment in Christ and his Heavenly priesthood and sacrifice discussed in Hebrews Chapters 4-13 to which the earthly priestly/Levitical/sacrificial pointed to?

Also did you know God's people already go through their captivity with the curses from Deuteronomy 30 with captivity from other nations (Balylon, Medes and Persians, Greece, Roman empires) leading to the fullfillment in Jesus?

Anyhow thanks for your advice in case I have a wrong understanding on what you are saying.

May God bless you as you study his Word.

 

[LoveGodForever]

Love God Forever said:
It is not my opinion it is the Word of God and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it. SIN will keep all who practice it OUT of God's KINGDOM.

Many will come to him on that day saying Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? And then he will say, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work SIN.

This is why it is written...

1 John 2
3, And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4, He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

and again..

1 John 3
6, Whoever stays in him sins not: whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.

Yep does not look good for many come Judgement day.

What a bunch of drivel.

Hello Endoscopy,

What is a bunch or drivel? God's Word is not drivel, we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it.

Romans 7 NIV Here is Paul talking about how he fights against and loses his battle against his sin nature. We all fight and lose this battle and commit sins. The law is in place till the heavens and earth pass away and all of us break the law.

Now my friend you do know that Romans 7 is NOT talking about the Christian walk don't you? It is talking about the sinful nature and the LAW of SIN OUTSIDE of Christ concluding Chapter 7 with......

Romans 7
24, O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (law of SIN; Sinful nature)
25, I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

SIN originates in the MIND and where temptation to SIN needs to be controlled.....

Matthew 5
27, Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28, But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Romans 7:25...with the mind I myself serve the law of God...

2 Corinthians 10
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

......

Psalms 119
11, Thy word have I hid in mine heart (thoughts and feelings), that I might not sin against thee.


ABIDING IN CHRIST (the Word)

John 15
1, I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2, Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3, Now ye are clean through THE WORD which I have spoken unto you.
4, ABIDE IN ME AND I IN YOU (the Word). As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me (the Word).
5, I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me (the Word), and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: FOR WITHOUT ME (the WORD) YOU CAN DO NOTHING.
6, If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7, If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8, Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9, As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10, If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love

links to....

1 John 3
6, WHOSOEVER ABIDES IN HIM (the WORD) SINS NOT (does not break God's Commandments): WHOSOEVER SINS HAS NOT SEEN HIM OR KNOWS HIM.

links to.....

Matthew 7
22, Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23, And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from me, YOU WHO SIN.

Yep John and Jesus agree together we are saved by GRACE through FAITH in God's WORD (means ABIDING in CHRIST) This is the POWER of GOD unto salvation to all those who BELIEVE without HIM (Jesus; the WORD) all we can do is SIN.

SALVATION is FROM SIN not IN SIN. You do err not knowing the scriptures or the POWER of GOD.

we are ONLY saved by GRACE through FAITH and NOT of OURSELVES it is a GIFT of GOD and not or WORKS lest any man should boast.

However, IF your FAITH does not have the FRUIT of OBEDIENCE then you are still in your SINS because you have rejected the GIFT of God's dear Son (James 2:18: 20: 26).

If your tree has no FRUIT it will be cast down and thrown into the FIRE come judgement day (Matthew 7:12-23). Now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth NOT forth good fruit is CUT down, and cast into the fire (Matthew 3:10).

If you are still in your SINS when he gives you a KNOWLEDGE of the truth then you do not KNOW him who calls you in LOVE to LOVE another as he first LOVED you.

...........

In times of ignorance God winks at but now calls all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30-31). God's Word says if we break one of the ten we stand guilty before God of breaking all the commandments of God (James 2:8-12). God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) and if we break it like any of the other commandments we stand guilty before God of SIN (Exodus 20:1-17).

If we break any of God’s Laws we stand guilty before God in SIN (James 2:11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20). This includes the 4th commandment which is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

 

[BibleGuy]

Hi BibleGuy,

I think this may be better for another thread as it is a bit sidetracked from the OP here. If you start up another thread send me a link I will be happy to comment. Although could I ask for some clarification here?

When you say that the priestly/Levitical/sacrificial is to be restored are you talking about offering animal sacrifices and sin offereings here on earth? Wouldn't this make a mockery of the work that Jesus has done already on our behalf as our sacrifice for sin?

How do your thoughts above fit in with the NEW Covenant and their fulfillment in Christ and his Heavenly priesthood and sacrifice discussed in Hebrews Chapters 4-13 to which the earthly priestly/Levitical/sacrificial pointed to?

Also did you know God's people already go through their captivity with the curses from Deuteronomy 30 with captivity from other nations (Balylon, Medes and Persians, Greece, Roman empires) leading to the fullfillment in Jesus?

Anyhow thanks for your advice in case I have a wrong understanding on what you are saying.

May God bless you as you study his Word.

Hello LoveGodForever,

Thank you, dear brother, for answering. Yes, maybe I should just start another thread on this issue of priestly/Levitical/sacrificial laws.

But, I suppose I'll go ahead and answer the few questions you asked me here. (other readers feel free to disregard this side-chat!)

You asked: "When you say that the priestly/Levitical/sacrificial is to be restored are you talking about offering animal sacrifices and sin offereings here on earth?"

My response: Yes. The force of the many Scriptural considerations I set forth seems to strongly suggest that animal sacrifices will indeed (and should indeed) occur again in the future, as a good thing.

You wrote: "Wouldn't this make a mockery of the work that Jesus has done already on our behalf as our sacrifice for sin?"

My response: Surely not. Paul condoned participation in New-Covenant-era sacrificial activity (Ac. 21).

And, Heb. 8:13 confirms the Old Covenant has not yet passed away (as I showed in previous post).

And, the prophets confirm that animal sacrifices will again occur in the future (as I showed in previous post).

And, Col. 2 confirms that there is an ONGOING SHADOW FUNCTION of Sabbath Torah (which, of course, includes sacrificial elements as outlined in the Torah itself), as I showed in the previous post.

So, just as animal sacrifices (prior to the crucifixion) pointed to the need for the forthcoming ultimate sacrifice of the Messiah, so too shall future animal sacrifices point back to the ongoing need to recognize the ultimate sacrifice of the Messiah.

The shadow functioned before the crucifixion. Prophecy guarantees it will also function in the future.

So, I see no reason to suppose that future animal sacrifices will make a mockery of anything. Indeed, they strongly point to the need for ultimate sacrifice in Jesus. That's surely one reason why the antichrist HATES the animal sacrifices. No surprise, then, to see that the antichrist will STOP animal sacrifices when he emerges onto the global stage.
(And, if animal sacrifices were really so bad, then wouldn’t the antichrist want them to continue? Just saying…)

The first century disciples had no such belief (i.e., they did not believe that sacrifices make a mockery of anything), but they rather continued on with great zeal as they discerned that the Messiah had come as the ultimate sacrifice to which the ongoing animal sacrifices continued to point.


You asked: "How do your thoughts above fit in with the NEW Covenant and their fulfillment in Christ and his Heavenly priesthood and sacrifice discussed in Hebrews Chapters 4-13 to which the earthly priestly/Levitical/sacrificial pointed to?"

My response: Not sure you really want me to give an exposition of 10 chapters of Hebrews! But remember, Heb. 8:13 confirms that the Old Covenant was READY (but had not yet) passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews. Therefore, the animal sacrifices MUST be consistent and harmonious with the New Covenant.

And, the New Covenant consists (among other things) of TORAH being written upon our hearts (Jer. 31; Heb. 8; Heb. 10). But Torah includes animal sacrifice laws. So again, we find consistency between New Covenant and sacrificial Torah.

Perhaps you could specify which passage in Hebrews 4 to Hebrews 13 that concerns you?


You wrote: "Also did you know God's people already go through their captivity with the curses from Deuteronomy 30 with captivity from other nations (Balylon, Medes and Persians, Greece, Roman empires) leading to the fullfillment in Jesus?"

My response: The house of Judah returned from Babylon back to Israel. Much of the house of Israel has still not yet returned. Jesus was still seeking the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And a 100% return of all Israelites to the land of Israel has still not yet occurred since the time of Jesus.

Therefore: Dt. 30:1-8 is NOT yet fulfilled. It follows that 100% of Torah (per Dt. 30:1-8) will be again obeyed in the FUTURE, when all of us Israelites finally return to the land of Israel in fulfillment of the many prophecies which guarantee this return. (1948 was NOT the fulfillment of all these prophecies!)


You wrote: "Anyhow thanks for your advice in case I have a wrong understanding on what you are saying."

My response: You're welcome. I'm glad to see your enthusiasm regarding obedience to Torah portions which many of our Christian brethren do not obey. However, I was concerned that you have not discerned that even the animal sacrifices shall be restored and upheld as law for all Israel (in which we are included!) And, I wanted to make sure you do not oppose the very Torah which our Messiah comes to restore (per Mal. 3).

Also, I don't know if you have ever heard of Ellen White. But I have searched her writings and have confirmed that she has repeatedly opposed the idea that animal sacrifices can/should/will be restored in the future. So, I wanted to show you, too, that she had evidently not understood this important Scriptural consideration. And, her opposition to it has caused me to reject the notion that she was a prophetess. That's one reason why I do not consider her to be a good source of information.
Incidentally, this has forced me to reject SDA theology, since SDA Fundamental Belief #28 claims that White speaks with prophetic authority to comfort, guide, instruct, and correct the church.

Anyway, just wanted to throw that out there too (sorry if I'm stepping on too many toes out there!)

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong at any point…after all, we’re all learning together, growing in love, grace, and knowledge all the while.

blessings to you, my dear brother.
David

 

[PS]

Hello Megenta

Everything has been answered and shown for what it is here in post # 4622 (linked for all to see). Simply saying otherwise is indeed a lie on your part. I will leave that between you and God.

Trying to cover your tracks in order for follow your Catholic traditions and bearing false witness only shows what your fruit is.

Sin will keep all who practice it out of God's KINGDOM. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgement day.

So you did not answer Magenta's question!

 

[BibleGuy]

There is no ceremonial laws in the 10 Commandments only a memorial law which is toi remember the God of creation who set aside the 7th day of the week making it a Holy day were no work was to be conducted.

Hi again!

I'd like to point out that Sabbath Torah properly INCLUDES ceremonial/sacrificial/Levitical activity (Nu. 28:9-10). Even for the future as well (Eze. 46:4,12).

So, there is MORE to the Sabbath than merely remembering "the God of creation who set aside the 7th day of the week making it a Holy day were no work was to be conducted", even though this is, of course, important too.

Well ok, just wanted to emphasize that point...

regards...

 

[BibleGuy]

Here is the quote. MethinksMyou are being disgusting

Matthew 5:17 to 20 NIV


The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Ummm.....what?

I love Mt. 5:17-20.

Not sure what you're trying to say.

And do you REALLY claim that Jesus fulfilled EVERY PROPHECY already?

I hope not!

For example, Is. 66 (new heavens and new earth). Obviously not fulfilled yet.

Agreed?

Or the Greater Exodus (Jer. 16; Jer. 23). Obviously not fulfilled yet.

Agreed?

Or the return of ALL Israelites back to the land of Israel to again obey 100% of Torah (Dt. 30:1-8). Obviously not yet fulfilled.

Agreed?

Or Is. 60:12 (every nation which refuses to serve Israel will be destroyed). Obviously not yet fulfilled.

Agreed?

Ok....hope that settles things.

regards....

 

[PS]

Hi again!

I'd like to point out that Sabbath Torah properly INCLUDES ceremonial/sacrificial/Levitical activity (Nu. 28:9-10). Even for the future as well (Eze. 46:4,12).

So, there is MORE to the Sabbath than merely remembering "the God of creation who set aside the 7th day of the week making it a Holy day were no work was to be conducted", even though this is, of course, important too.

Well ok, just wanted to emphasize that point...

regards...

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall observe and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


The note in the margin of the Geneva Bible says "Jesus begins with the true expounding of the law, and sets it against the old (but yet false) glosses of the Scribes. He is far from abolishing the least commandment of his Father."

The law of God, is NOT the law of men.

 

[LoveGodForever]

Hello LoveGodForever,

Thank you, dear brother, for answering. Yes, maybe I should just start another thread on this issue of priestly/Levitical/sacrificial laws.

But, I suppose I'll go ahead and answer the few questions you asked me here. (other readers feel free to disregard this side-chat!)

You asked: "When you say that the priestly/Levitical/sacrificial is to be restored are you talking about offering animal sacrifices and sin offereings here on earth?"

My response: Yes. The force of the many Scriptural considerations I set forth seems to strongly suggest that animal sacrifices will indeed (and should indeed) occur again in the future, as a good thing.

You wrote: "Wouldn't this make a mockery of the work that Jesus has done already on our behalf as our sacrifice for sin?"

My response: Surely not. Paul condoned participation in New-Covenant-era sacrificial activity (Ac. 21).

And, Heb. 8:13 confirms the Old Covenant has not yet passed away (as I showed in previous post).

And, the prophets confirm that animal sacrifices will again occur in the future (as I showed in previous post).

And, Col. 2 confirms that there is an ONGOING SHADOW FUNCTION of Sabbath Torah (which, of course, includes sacrificial elements as outlined in the Torah itself), as I showed in the previous post.

So, just as animal sacrifices (prior to the crucifixion) pointed to the need for the forthcoming ultimate sacrifice of the Messiah, so too shall future animal sacrifices point back to the ongoing need to recognize the ultimate sacrifice of the Messiah.

The shadow functioned before the crucifixion. Prophecy guarantees it will also function in the future.

So, I see no reason to suppose that future animal sacrifices will make a mockery of anything. Indeed, they strongly point to the need for ultimate sacrifice in Jesus. That's surely one reason why the antichrist HATES the animal sacrifices. No surprise, then, to see that the antichrist will STOP animal sacrifices when he emerges onto the global stage.
(And, if animal sacrifices were really so bad, then wouldn’t the antichrist want them to continue? Just saying…)

The first century disciples had no such belief (i.e., they did not believe that sacrifices make a mockery of anything), but they rather continued on with great zeal as they discerned that the Messiah had come as the ultimate sacrifice to which the ongoing animal sacrifices continued to point.


You asked: "How do your thoughts above fit in with the NEW Covenant and their fulfillment in Christ and his Heavenly priesthood and sacrifice discussed in Hebrews Chapters 4-13 to which the earthly priestly/Levitical/sacrificial pointed to?"

My response: Not sure you really want me to give an exposition of 10 chapters of Hebrews! But remember, Heb. 8:13 confirms that the Old Covenant was READY (but had not yet) passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews. Therefore, the animal sacrifices MUST be consistent and harmonious with the New Covenant.

And, the New Covenant consists (among other things) of TORAH being written upon our hearts (Jer. 31; Heb. 8; Heb. 10). But Torah includes animal sacrifice laws. So again, we find consistency between New Covenant and sacrificial Torah.

Perhaps you could specify which passage in Hebrews 4 to Hebrews 13 that concerns you?


You wrote: "Also did you know God's people already go through their captivity with the curses from Deuteronomy 30 with captivity from other nations (Balylon, Medes and Persians, Greece, Roman empires) leading to the fullfillment in Jesus?"

My response: The house of Judah returned from Babylon back to Israel. Much of the house of Israel has still not yet returned. Jesus was still seeking the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And a 100% return of all Israelites to the land of Israel has still not yet occurred since the time of Jesus.

Therefore: Dt. 30:1-8 is NOT yet fulfilled. It follows that 100% of Torah (per Dt. 30:1-8) will be again obeyed in the FUTURE, when all of us Israelites finally return to the land of Israel in fulfillment of the many prophecies which guarantee this return. (1948 was NOT the fulfillment of all these prophecies!)


You wrote: "Anyhow thanks for your advice in case I have a wrong understanding on what you are saying."

My response: You're welcome. I'm glad to see your enthusiasm regarding obedience to Torah portions which many of our Christian brethren do not obey. However, I was concerned that you have not discerned that even the animal sacrifices shall be restored and upheld as law for all Israel (in which we are included!) And, I wanted to make sure you do not oppose the very Torah which our Messiah comes to restore (per Mal. 3).

Also, I don't know if you have ever heard of Ellen White. But I have searched her writings and have confirmed that she has repeatedly opposed the idea that animal sacrifices can/should/will be restored in the future. So, I wanted to show you, too, that she had evidently not understood this important Scriptural consideration. And, her opposition to it has caused me to reject the notion that she was a prophetess. That's one reason why I do not consider her to be a good source of information.
Incidentally, this has forced me to reject SDA theology, since SDA Fundamental Belief #28 claims that White speaks with prophetic authority to comfort, guide, instruct, and correct the church.

Anyway, just wanted to throw that out there too (sorry if I'm stepping on too many toes out there!)

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong at any point…after all, we’re all learning together, growing in love, grace, and knowledge all the while.

blessings to you, my dear brother.
David

Hi David,

It sounded like this is what you were getting at although I was not sure as I had never heard of that concept before anywhere from anyone or in God's Word.

For me however, this idea is something I personally do not agree with as I think the weight of scripture is against the idea that we will be doing SIN offereing again as in animal sacrifices.

These were part of the OLD Covenant under the Mosaic laws but did originate way before Moses and pointed forward to Jesus as our great sacrifice for SIN.

Maybe you can start up another thread somewhere and send me a link.

I have never heard this idea before. I do not think you would get a favourable reception though because in my view it is like saying Jesus sacrifice was not sufficient.

Look forward to sharing more scripture with you though in your new thread.

Thanks for sharing your view although I do not see your interpretation of the scriptures as being biblical.

 

[LoveGodForever]

So you did not answer Magenta's question!

So yep it was answered Jesus never brake God's Sabbath he was the creator of it and made it for mankind not man for the Sabbath which is how the Jews were interpreting it because in their eyes because of their traditions he was breaking it. Jesus came to teach us that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath but if you read post # 4622 (linked for all to see), you would already know this. This is the short version as I know you hate long posts with scripture.

...............

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.