GOD'S SABBATH AND THE REAL TRUTH OF COL 2:14-17 WHO DO WE BELIEVE GOD or MAN?

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Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Long before the start of creation that occurred, according to Judaism, in 3761 BC, people were already settled and farming before 12,000 BC.

"The earliest signs of a process leading to sedentary culture can be seen in the Levant to as early as 12,000 BC, when the Natufian culture became sedentary; it evolved into an agricultural society by 10,000 BC. The importance of water to safeguard an abundant and stable food supply, due to favourable conditions for hunting, fishing and gathering resources including cereals, provided an initial wide spectrum economy that triggered the creation of permanent villages."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cradle_of_civilization

Again posting flawed secular theories. One item you ignore in this is archaeological digs when finished on Biblical sites proves the history in the Old and New Testaments are extremely accurate. Secular history of ancient times has been found to be flawed. The victors write the history. Two sites where miraculous events occurred show proof of the events.

Sodom was destroyed by a pyroclastic (super hot) blast. The buildings on the lower level were turned to dust along with the top of the buildings of the upper level.

Jericho has its massive inner wall falling outward covering the smooth ramp between it and the smaller outer wall. This allowed an invading army to invade, kill the people, burning the city, and leaving all valuables there intact including the just harvested containers of grain.

Both as depicted in Genesis.

Why do you keep posting secular foolishness on a Christian site?
 
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Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Still erecting your giant straw-man I see.....
He loves long winded posts that most will ignore. Basic rule of functional posts on forums is keep it short and simple to be read. Long winded complex posts are usually ignored by the vast majority of people viewing the site!!
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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Again posting flawed secular theories.
The so-called "flawed secular theories" agree with, and support the Bible. Genesis chapter 4:20 tells us people were living in tents,
And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.

To make tents you need sheep, you need to be able to weave in order to make cloth and you need the skills to make needles and to be able to sew.

Making tents is the next step up from making clothes. The fig leaves were long gone. This was a progressive society, they had neighbours in the Land of Nod, and Cain was working on building a city.

Why do you keep posting secular foolishness on a Christian site?
The Bible is a true account that is supported by archaeology. Both agree, neither are in conflict with each other.

Rid yourself of the notion that Adam and Eve were wearing fig leaves, that is the stuff of fairy tales and is as erroneous as much of the theology that is preached on here.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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The so-called "flawed secular theories" agree with, and support the Bible. Genesis chapter 4:20 tells us people were living in tents,
And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.

To make tents you need sheep, you need to be able to weave in order to make cloth and you need the skills to make needles and to be able to sew.

Making tents is the next step up from making clothes. The fig leaves were long gone. This was a progressive society, they had neighbours in the Land of Nod, and Cain was working on building a city.



The Bible is a true account that is supported by archaeology. Both agree, neither are in conflict with each other.

Rid yourself of the notion that Adam and Eve were wearing fig leaves, that is the stuff of fairy tales and is as erroneous as much of the theology that is preached on here.
Reading that site I don't understand how it isn't secular.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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He loves long winded posts that most will ignore. Basic rule of functional posts on forums is keep it short and simple to be read. Long winded complex posts are usually ignored by the vast majority of people viewing the site!!
I agree with you on this. Someone asks a simple question and you get a massive cut-n-paste of scriptural references in response, most of which have absolutely nothing to do with the question that was asked.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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I agree with you on this. Someone asks a simple question and you get a massive cut-n-paste of scriptural references in response, most of which have absolutely nothing to do with the question that was asked.
They are the spin doctors. They need to be verbose in order to spin their web of deceit.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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As well as spin-doctoring, their verbosity acts as a smokescreen.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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WHen one can't have a real debate they many times turn to slander.

Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."


Ohh would you look at that, seems the Law is not gone, that means that old pesky Sabbath is not gone also...

Is Jesus right or was wrong here...
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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WHen one can't have a real debate they many times turn to slander.
I wonder what Jesus considers to be slanderous?

Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."


Ohh would you look at that, seems the Law is not gone, that means that old pesky Sabbath is not gone also...
The law remains for those who live under it.

Is Jesus right or was wrong here...
I'm reading in the dictionary that to slander someone is to make disparaging remarks about them.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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I wonder what Jesus considers to be slanderous?



The law remains for those who live under it.



I'm reading in the dictionary that to slander someone is to make disparaging remarks about them.
you conflate being under the curse of the Law and obedience...

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Exodus 20:6, “But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”


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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."[/FONT]

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PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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you conflate being under the curse of the Law and obedience...

Exodus 20:6, “But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws.”

John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."
There is no way to combine (conflate) those who are condemned by the curse of the law, with the redeemed unless, they come to Jesus and are washed in the blood of the Lamb.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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There is no way to combine (conflate) those who are condemned by the curse of the law, with the redeemed unless, they come to Jesus and are washed in the blood of the Lamb.
You must have misunderstood what I meant or are trying to ignore my post.

YOu appear to believe that any following of YHWH's Law is being "under the Law"

The term "under the Law" is being under the curse of the Law:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:17, "All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not unto death."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Deuteronomy 21:22-23, “And when a man has committed a sin worthy of death, then he shall be put to death and you shall hang him on a tree. Let his body not remain overnight on the tree, for you shall certainly bury him the same day – for he who is hanged is accursed of Yah – so that you do not defile the land which [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]your Strength is giving you as an inheritance.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Peter 2:24, "who Himself bore our sins in His body on the timber, so that we, having died to sins, might live unto righteousness, by whose stripes you were healed.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isaiah 53:4-5, “Truly, He has borne our sicknesses and carried our pains. Yet we reckoned Him smitten·, stricken by YHWH, and afflicted. But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our crookedness. The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.”

Those in MEssiah will not recieve the death penalty, being free from the death penalty is not free from do not steal, do not murder, etc.

Paul, who uses the term "under the Law" followed the Law Himself according to his own words:

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy, so I (Paul) worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you (Paul), yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."

and no it was not because he wa a Jew the Law of YHWH has ALWAYS been for those who join to YHWH since the beginning;

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Numbers 15:15-16, “One law is for you of the assembly and for the stranger who sojourns with you – a law forever throughout your generations. As you are, so is the stranger before [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. One Torah and one right-ruling is for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.”

as the Sabbath was for Hebrew and Gentile alike;

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isayah 56:1-7, "This is what YHWH says: Keep the judgments, and do justly; for My salvation is near, soon, to come, and My righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who lays hold on it; who keeps the Sabbaths without polluting; defiling, them; and keeps his hand from doing any evil. Do not let the son of the Gentile, who has joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying; YHWH has utterly separated me from His people. Nor let the eunuch say; Behold, I am a dry tree. For this is what YHWH says: To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, and choose those things which eplease Me, and hold fast to My covenant: I will give to them, in My House, even within My walls, a place and a Name equal to that of sons and of daughters; I will give them the Name of The Everlasting: YHWH; which will not be cut off. Also the sons of the Gentile who join themselves to YHWH, to serve Him, and to love the Name of YHWH, to be His servants--everyone who keeps the Sabbaths without polluting; defiling, them and who holds fast to My covenant--I will bring them to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My House of prayer..."

rejection of the Law is "iniquity":

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"iniquity" is: #0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1) the condition of without law 1a) because ignorant of it1b) because of violating it, 2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 7:21-23, “Not everyone who says to Me; Master! Master! will enter into the Kingdom of YHWH, but only he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day; Master! Master! Have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and in Your Name performed many wonderful works? But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practiceiniquity.”[/FONT]


“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]practice” is word #G2038 Strong's Concordance - ergazomai: I work, trade, do, Original Word: ἐργάζομαι, Part of Speech: Verb, Transliteration: ergazomai, Phonetic Spelling: (er-gad'-zom-ahee), Short Definition: I work, trade, do, Definition: I work, trade, perform, do, practice, commit, acquire by labor.[/FONT]


“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]iniquity” is word #G458 Strong's Concordance - anomia, lawlessness, Short Definition: lawlessness, iniquity, Definition: lawlessness, iniquity, disobedience, sin[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"iniquity" is: #0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1) the condition of without law 1a) because ignorant of it1b) because of violating it, 2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."[/FONT]

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PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
2,643
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You must have misunderstood what I meant or are trying to ignore my post.

YOu appear to believe that any following of YHWH's Law is being "under the Law"

The term "under the Law" is being under the curse of the Law:

1 John 5:17, "All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not unto death."


Deuteronomy 21:22-23, “And when a man has committed a sin worthy of death, then he shall be put to death and you shall hang him on a tree. Let his body not remain overnight on the tree, for you shall certainly bury him the same day – for he who is hanged is accursed of Yah – so that you do not defile the land which יהוה your Strength is giving you as an inheritance.”
Seeing as we all have sinned, then we are all under the curse of the law. However, God has provided a way of escape.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
18,569
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Ohh would you look at that, seems the Law is not gone, that means that old pesky Sabbath is not gone also...
doesn't that mean tzitzit, dietary restrictions, daily sacrifices, new moon festivals and collection of tithes by Levites are not gone either?

or is there some justifiable reason to break the Law apart and selectively erase some jots and some tittles but leave others?
if so what's the basis for ignoring some parts and enforcing some others?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
18,569
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Seeing as we all have sinned, then we are all under the curse of the law. However, God has provided a way of escape.
yes, someone is able to save me from this body of death :)

i know my Redeemer lives!
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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HBG. Pa. USA
that verse is in context, talking about those still seeking to operate a levite priesthood.

the veil is how they entered the holy place.

Not according to 2 cor 3. The context is the whole ministry not what was written to be received, but how it was ministered to the people.

And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the culmination (the glory of GOD in HIS children; those who minister through HIS Spirit) of that which is being rendered idle (the ministry from the letter; that which was written of ink and the tables of stone):
(2Co 3:13)

Moses had received the circumcision of his heart, to love the LORD his GOD with all his heart, mind and soul. For It was not in heaven, that he shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto him, in his mouth, and in his heart, that he mayest do it. Forasmuch as he was; so are we manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. And such trust have he as we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
(Deu 30:6,12-14; 2Co 3:3-6)


The receiving of the Decalogue in the Tables of Stone and that which was penned by Moses was not GOD's intent. Israel choose that ministry not GOD.

And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
(Exo 20:19 KJV)


That which was spoken to Moses' heart (the circumcision made without hands Deut 30:6) was to be spoken to all of Israel's heart, but they could not receive it due to their stiff necks and hard hearts. Neither could they stedfastly look to the culmination (the glory of GOD in the face of Moses; those who minister through HIS Spirit) of that which is being rendered idle (the ministry from the letter; that which was written of ink and the tables of stone): For the letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life.
(2Co 3:13 KJV)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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"old testament" is simply English for "παλαιᾶς διαθήκης"


found here

and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Corinthians3&version=NLT
that verse is in context, talking about those still seeking to operate a levite priesthood.

the veil is how they entered the holy place.
the veil in this context is not the veil covering the door to the holy of holies -- though there is a relation.

the veil being spoken of is the one Moses wore over his face.

we cannot say this is simply about Levite priesthood either, because verse 7 references a ministry engraved in letters on stone -- clearly the 10 commandments, which are representative of the covenant that Moses was made mediator of. this is about the covenant not about a subset of the law of that covenant or solely the priesthood of that covenant. "where there is a change in priesthood there is of necessity a change of law also"

it's written here ((2 Corinthians 3)) that Moses wore the veil to hide the fading of the glory from his face - and a comparison is made between the glory that fades - the ministry that brought death, written on tablets of stone - and the glory that surpasses and lasts, the ministry of the Spirit. that same veil is still over the hearts of the unbelieving until the time is fulfilled, so that they cannot see that it fades, and cannot see the glory of the new covenant which does not fade.

yes, new covenant -- not just a new priesthood. 2 Cor 3:6 does not say we are made new ministers of the old covenant; rather, ministers of a new covenant. the old waxes away and the new supplants it - and as ministers we serve not after "the letter, which kills" ((old)) but after the Spirit, which gives life ((new)). the old covenant commanded rest for the body and enforced it with penalty of death. the new says come to Me and you will find rest for your soul - with mercy and grace, condemnation being removed.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Shamah,

"The term "under the Law" is being under the curse of the Law:"

i disagree

Galatians 4: 4. God sent out his Son, born to a woman, born under the law

Jesus was born obligated to do what the law says


same construction here
Matthew 8: 9. For I am also a man under authority

it doesn't mean the man is under the curse of authority