God's sovereignity and man's "freedom"...

[Angela53510]

What's amazing is the KJV spurred on the greatest revival the world has ever seen. That's called fruit. The new versions have led to the Laodicean Age. That's called corrupt fruit.

So, you mean a revival hundreds of years later? Literally? I assume you are talking about the Great Awakening. And of course, God's word does not return void! After a few hundred years, of people reading in a language that was much closer to their own, the HOLY SPIRIT started an Awakening!

Because a Bible version does not start an Awakening! God does! Of course, he used the only Bible that was available. And no one is denying the gospel is there in the KJV. The additions and corruptions do not touch on the central truth of who Jesus is! In any version that is not cultic, the message is clear. As I said in another post, 1 Cor. 15 is clear in any version, and it is also a portion of Scripture that basically has only a few variations in the manuscripts. Get an UBS Greek New Testament and it will tell you every variation, including in the Byzantine texts. So much for text perfection!

In fact, as someone who tried to read the KJV as a child of 11, even memorizing Psalm 8, I was so taken from its beauty, I finally gave up, because I did not understand the language. What if I had had access to a modern version? I might have saved myself a lot of trouble wandering in the wilderness for 15 years, doing harm to myself, if I had a modern version in my own language.

I would suggest that, in fact, the KJV is what has lead to people walking away from God. Because, it may have taken a few months, but reading in a modern version was something that led to me finally understanding the gospel message. But only with the help of God!

The other essential part of revival, and people being saved, which you fail to acknowledge is prayer, and the fervent witness of many people. I knew people that God saved in miraculous ways, and they were on fire for God. There WAS a revival where I lived. The more they witnessed to me, the more I knew something was up. And yes, God saved me, through the Word, but also through the prayers of God's people and their testimony.

What is missing today is a fervent witness and honest prayer! Fortunately, there are now bible translations that anyone can understand, from phrase for phrase, like the Message, or the NLT, to word for word, like the ESV and NASB, and a few Bibles in between, like the NIV, HCSB and NET.

I can agree totally that the KJV was mightily used of God, back in its day. And for some people, it is the translation they are comfortable with! But, God has led modern scholars to translate the Bible into the language that people speak today, not a translation in early modern English. Or, for that matter, God has led translators in literally hundreds of languages, to make the Bible available to all!

 

[trofimus]

1. The is no doubt that many of the KJV translators were Puritans, therefore Calvinists. But there were others who were not. And since there were over 50 translators involved for checks and balances, no one's biases or prejudices could affect the translation. In the end the KJV was simply a faithful word-for-word translation which was also beautifully done, so that this Bible became a literary "Classic" in its own right. It also withstood the test of time.

2. Also, unlike today's Calvinists, the KJV translators were committed to accurately and faithfully translating the Scriptures, which they also did expertly, since the array of outstanding scholars among them is truly astounding. So the last thing any of them would have attempted would be be fudge the Scriptures so that they would reflect their personal doctrines.

3. Even the enemies of the KJV on the 19th century Revision Committee dared not claim that the translators had "messed" with the Bible. So the bottom line is that the Bible refutes and rebukes Five Point Calvinism even though Calvinists were involved with the translation. If that is not further evidence that God's hand was over this translation, then nothing will convince you.

How could such outstanding scholars believe in a "damnable" doctrine?

I still do not get it.

---

Lets summarize the history:

Roman catholic priest devoted his Greek compilation to pope. Calvinists took it and translated it to English. You live by this book and think it cannot be done better.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I cannot stress enough that Bible Hub is NOT a good source to exegete words.

This is one of the most nonsensical statements ever made.

The enormous work that has gone into this web site is just amazing and second to none. Anyone with any discernment can see that your statement is not only false, but biased. Every Christian should go and visit Bible Hub and see what an amazing job they have done in bring ALL Bible resources onto one web site, so that you can quickly check and sort out the wheat (Reformation Bibles) from the chaff (modern bible versions). You can also look up dozens of commentaries to see what the correct exegesis should be. And you can find the interlinear translations at a glance.

 

[Angela53510]

Too bad the KJV Onlyists have turned up in yet another thread to take over the topic. I think you people need to stay in your own threads, if this is what you want to discuss.

The topic is the sovereignty of God, and man's "freedom." OK?

 

[Nehemiah6]

How could such outstanding scholars believe in a "damnable" doctrine?

I still not get it.

Well you can pray to the saints and Mary for the answers, since those saints are now in Heaven.

 

[trofimus]

Well you can pray to the saints and Mary for the answers, since those saints are now in Heaven.

Lets summarize the history:

Roman catholic priest devoted his Greek compilation to pope. Calvinists took it and translated it to English. You live by this book and think it cannot be done better.

 

[Nehemiah6]

KJV is probably the most corrupt version there is!

Looks like you swallowed Westcott & Hort's lies hook, line and sinker. But the truth will always prevail.

 

[trofimus]

Looks like you swallowed Westcott & Hort's lies hook, line and sinker. But the truth will always prevail.

Good to know.

Where the truth prevailed before the KJV?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Lets summarize the history:

Roman catholic priest devoted his Greek compilation to pope. Calvinists took it and translated it to English. You live by this book and think it cannot be done better.

You know as much as I do that this is pure baloney. And if you don't. then get real and do some serious research.

 

[trofimus]

Too bad the KJV Onlyists have turned up in yet another thread to take over the topic. I think you people need to stay in your own threads, if this is what you want to discuss.

The topic is the sovereignty of God, and man's "freedom." OK?

Best world - Leibniz As always...

Topics are still repeating so I do not know what to say more

 

[trofimus]

You know as much as I do that this is pure baloney. And if you don't. then get real and do some serious research.

What is pure baloney?

---

Erasmus was a roman catholic priest. (historical fact)

He devoted his work to pope Leo X. (historical fact)

Calvinists took his work and translated it to English. (historical fact, you can only say that not all were calvinists)

You live by this book and think it cannot be done better. (you say that)

 

[Laish]

What's amazing is the KJV spurred on the greatest revival the world has ever seen. That's called fruit. The new versions have led to the Laodicean Age. That's called corrupt fruit.

Evidence please .Come on John We can also say that the KJV is written in such a antiquated language that it caused the corrupt fruit . Most English speaking folks don’t understand it . The KJV was printed so that the every day man could read it . No special language was used .The KJV in its current state undermines the reason for the work of the interpreters.
Also note if you look at just the sum numbers we now have more Christians today than ever .
Also you want to see a even greater revival print the scriptures in Chinese and hand them to folks in China.
Blesdings
Bill

 

[valiant]

And since God says He will have mercy on ALL, do you also believe that or not? It is interesting how Calvinists dodge the bullet by picking and choosing verses without regard to context!

If God has mercy on ALL then all will be saved, So you are a universalist?

GOD WILL HAVE MERCY ON ALL ISRAEL
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. (Rom 11:30-32)

That is restricted to the 'all' previously described

GOD WILL HAVE MERCY ON "WHOSOEVER" -- ANYONE AND EVERYONE
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17)

But the whoever will are those whom God wills

ONCE AGAIN THE WORDS OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST TO REFUTE AND REBUKE CALVINISTS
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

(John 3:17).

HE who believes is not condemned. He who believes not is condemned already. Are you seriously suggesting that believing is the result of something in man? If so he has done something to earn salvation. He has not received it as a free gift. He has not received it by God's unmerited favour, by grace.

 

[valiant]

Well you can pray to the saints and Mary for the answers, since those saints are now in Heaven.

you pray to the saints and Mary? That explains a lot.

 

[shrume]

HE who believes is not condemned. He who believes not is condemned already.

That's why we are to preach the gospel, so people have the opportunity to hear it so they can choose to believe it.

Are you seriously suggesting that believing is the result of something in man?

Absolutely. Anyone can choose to believe the gospel.

If so he has done something to earn salvation.

Yes. He has decided to believe. That's what you did at some point.

He has not received it as a free gift.

Of course he has. So did you, when you chose to believe.

He has not received it by God's unmerited favour by grace.

God does not force salvation on anyone. He wants all men to choose to believe.

Calvinism is not true. God did not, and does not, determine who will come to Him for salvation.

 

[MarcR]

So, you mean a revival hundreds of years later? Literally? I assume you are talking about the Great Awakening. And of course, God's word does not return void! After a few hundred years, of people reading in a language that was much closer to their own, the HOLY SPIRIT started an Awakening!

Because a Bible version does not start an Awakening! God does! Of course, he used the only Bible that was available. And no one is denying the gospel is there in the KJV. The additions and corruptions do not touch on the central truth of who Jesus is! In any version that is not cultic, the message is clear. As I said in another post, 1 Cor. 15 is clear in any version, and it is also a portion of Scripture that basically has only a few variations in the manuscripts. Get an UBS Greek New Testament and it will tell you every variation, including in the Byzantine texts. So much for text perfection!

In fact, as someone who tried to read the KJV as a child of 11, even memorizing Psalm 8, I was so taken from its beauty, I finally gave up, because I did not understand the language. What if I had had access to a modern version? I might have saved myself a lot of trouble wandering in the wilderness for 15 years, doing harm to myself, if I had a modern version in my own language.

I would suggest that, in fact, the KJV is what has lead to people walking away from God. Because, it may have taken a few months, but reading in a modern version was something that led to me finally understanding the gospel message. But only with the help of God!

The other essential part of revival, and people being saved, which you fail to acknowledge is prayer, and the fervent witness of many people. I knew people that God saved in miraculous ways, and they were on fire for God. There WAS a revival where I lived. The more they witnessed to me, the more I knew something was up. And yes, God saved me, through the Word, but also through the prayers of God's people and their testimony.

What is missing today is a fervent witness and honest prayer! Fortunately, there are now bible translations that anyone can understand, from phrase for phrase, like the Message, or the NLT, to word for word, like the ESV and NASB, and a few Bibles in between, like the NIV, HCSB and NET.

I can agree totally that the KJV was mightily used of God, back in its day. And for some people, it is the translation they are comfortable with! But, God has led modern scholars to translate the Bible into the language that people speak today, not a translation in early modern English. Or, for that matter, God has led translators in literally hundreds of languages, to make the Bible available to all!

Actually, the first great revival in America occurred in 1620 only 9 years after first publication of the KJV under the preaching of Increase Mather, who, 16 years later became the first president of Harvard University.


This revival led indirectly to the founding of Harvard University 16 years later, as a congregationalist seminary.

The second great revival came in 1733-35 under the preaching of Johnathan Edwards.

The third major revival began in 1821 and continued for over a decade under the preaching of Charles Finney.

The fourth great revival began in 1851 involving D.L.Moody, William Booth, and Charles Spurgeon.

As you know I am not a KJV only advocate and I see no evidence that the KJV and the revivals that followed are connected; but I will not deny they occurred.

 

[Angela53510]

Actually, the first great revival in America occurred in 1620 only 9 years after first publication of the KJV under the preaching of Increase Mather, who, 16 years later became the first president of Harvard University.


This revival led indirectly to the founding of Harvard University 16 years later, as a congregationalist seminary.

The second great revival came in 1733-35 under the preaching of Johnathan Edwards.

The third major revival began in 1821 and continued for over a decade under the preaching of Charles Finney.

The fourth great revival began in 1851 involving D.L.Moody, William Booth, and Charles Spurgeon.

As you know I am not a KJV only advocate and I see no evidence that the KJV and the revivals that followed are connected; but I will not deny they occurred.

Well, I would have to assume that the KJV DID in fact have an effect on people, since it was the only translation that was widely available at that time. I know for a fact that Jonathan Edwards used the KJV, and probably the others did, too! (See Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God! Apparently, Edwards read the sermon in a monotone, looking at his written sermon the whole time. When he looked up, people were streaming to the front, ready to repent!)

What I always find so ironical about this list of the preachers who really did start these revivals, is not which Bible they were using, but that their soteriology was so different. Spurgeon and Edwards were staunch Calvinists. Finney was Arminian. And for those who are in the middle, I think Moody was. Here is a quote:

"1. Was Moody a Calvinist or an Arminian?

Both Calvinists and Arminians cooperated with him in his meetings, although neither camp was entirely comfortable with his views. Moody had been profoundly affected by both the Arminianizing trends of North American evangelicalism and the more Calvinistic views of British evangelicals.

Arminians were ill at ease with Moody's “once in grace, always in grace” views, and they were not happy with Moody’s statements about election. But Calvinists felt uncomfortable with Moody’s evangelistic emphasis on human responsibility to believe and the universal provision and offer of salvation. In Moody’s words, “I don’t try to reconcile God’s sovereignty and man’s free agency."

http://www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-25/questions-about-moodys-theology.html

Woe! Shades of CC in the BDF! The point being, these men were all called of God to preach the gospel. In the end, God sovereignly saved people, regardless of the soteriological theology, and probably regardless of the Bible version. (Yes, it was KJV, because that is all that was available in those days!) But God can do the same today, if people will pray, and preachers do the work God called them to do. That is my prayer.

 

[preacher4truth]

Actually, the first great revival in America occurred in 1620 only 9 years after first publication of the KJV under the preaching of Increase Mather, who, 16 years later became the first president of Harvard University.

Increase Mather was born in 1639. Mather held the office of president at Harvard in like 1689.How did he hold a revival in 1620? You've forgotten more that I'll ever know, and probably have your dates and names mixed up a bit.

I think you're missing out entirely on the influence of George Whitefield and the Great Awakening (among others).

But yes, we owe much concerning the bringing forth of the KJV as far as all the lives that were spent in bringing a Bible to the English speaking world.

 

[MarcR]

Increase Mather was born in 1639. Mather held the office of president at Harvard in like 1689.How did he hold a revival in 1620? You've forgotten more that I'll ever know, and probably have your dates and names mixed up a bit.

I think you're missing out entirely on the influence of George Whitefield and the Great Awakening (among others).

But yes, we owe much concerning the bringing forth of the KJV as far as all the lives that were spent in bringing a Bible to the English speaking world.

Sorry I misread my notes. You are indeed correct. One of the Hazzards of doing research when you wake up in the middle of the night. I can't at the moment figure out who I was actually talking about; but I will post a correction when I figure it out.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I wouldn't mention Charles Finney as the cause of a revival. He introduced much of the heresies we have on this board today through his 'preachings'.