God's sovereignity and man's "freedom"...

preacher4truth · Dec 2, 2017

And they're not heretical, nor do they misunderstand Scripture, they just have "differing opinions" and "love" those who actually endure sound doctrine.

While they actually don't.

They desire us to embrace them with open arms while they preach against us. If we don't accept them, we're then unloving.

It all reminds me of leftist ideology, well, because that's what it is.

shrume · Dec 2, 2017

John146 said:

Answer the question without insults. Did God change His mind concerning Nineveh? Please explain.

4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. 5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.

and yet...

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

For another example, SG can also see Isaiah 38:1-5.

Nehemiah6 · Dec 2, 2017

shrume said:

A similar example is in Philippians 2:25-30. Epaphroditus was on the verge of death, but no doubt through the prayers of the saints he was spared. From man s perspective, God changes His mind and *relents*. For confirmation, all we need to do is study the dialogue between Abraham and God regarding Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen 18:20-33).

TruthTalk · Dec 2, 2017

SovereignGrace said:

Hi SG, I'm liking and following along with the convo, but I am unable to respond only a bit on the keyboard, because of a sciatic nerve accident, so don't mind me if I'm out of touch a little bit. No God cannot not change His mind for if He did we may all be wiped off the face of the planet and gone tomorrow. Quote; "His providence may change, His heart cannot."

"Morning Thoughts"
Written by: Octavius Winslow

"I am the Lord, and I do not change. That is
why your descendants of Jacob are not already
completely destroyed." Malachi 3:6

The immutability of God forms a stable foundation
of comfort for the believing soul. Mutability marks
everything outside of God. Look . . .
into the church,
into the world,
into our families,
into ourselves,
what innumerable changes do we see on every hand!
A week, one short day, what alterations does it
produce! Yet, in the midst of it all, to repose calmly
on the unchangeableness, the faithfulness of God.

To know that no alterations of time, no earthly changes,
affect His faithfulness to His people. And more than this;
no changes in them, no unfaithfulness of theirs, causes
the slightest change in God. Once a Father, always a
Father; once a Friend, always a Friend.

His providences may change, His heart cannot.

He is a God of unchangeable love. Peace then, tried
believer! Are you passing now through the deep waters?
Who kept you from sinking when wading through the last?
Who brought you through the last fire?
Who supported you under the last cross?
Who delivered you out of the last temptation?
Was it not God, your faithful, unchangeable God?

This God, then, is your God now, and your God forever

and ever! And He will be your guide even unto death!

"His providence's may change, His heart cannot"

joaniemarie · Dec 3, 2017

SovereignGrace said:

Well, you are the one who says we have a 'god' who is impersonal. But in reality, its your view that has an impersonal 'god'. In your view, God only goes so far, seeing He won't violate this mythical free will. He then says, "this is as far as I am coming, now you come to Me." That's your view in a nutshell, seeing I held to that falsity for many years.

The word "mystical" is not mine but yours. God doesn't violate our freewill even to the degree of us not receiving the blessings freely given to us. It's not that God with holds blessings.... It's "we" who won't put out our hands and receive by faith the things He has gladly and freely given us in Christ. He has already given us everything we need to move forward in the victory Jesus paid for us to have., the condition of the new covenant is "faith" But many Christians today are living under the old covenant of the law and trying to work their way into the promises and are confused as to why God didn't come through.

In your view, God stands on the bank as you were drowning and tossed you a flotation device. It was up to you to grab it and allow Him to drag you to the shore, or reject it and drown. The only problem with that scenario, and its a huge problem, is your weren't drowning, but you were drowned and floating like a log.

Sorry, I don't understand this "floating like a log" story. We are saved by grace through faith. We were dead in trespasses and sins and Jesus saves the lost sinner., we can't save ourselves.

God is so personal that He dove in, dragged your dead corpse to the shore, and brought you back to life all of His own doing. That is what nekros in Ephesians 2:3 means. It means a literally dead corpse. That was your inner being, your spirit, dead as a corpse floating in that pond He drug you out of.

Now, who's God is impersonal now?

g

Again to remind you., I'm talking about saved people here not unsaved. I understand predestination and the 2 sided coin analogy. It is God who draws us.

joaniemarie · Dec 3, 2017

Snoozy said:

is this the kind of teaching available from tv?

I can't vouch for all Christian programming but can say there are quite a few that are excellent.

touched by your weaknesses? we got spouses for that.

Not everyone has a spouse. Jesus is a Father to the Fatherless. And yes., Jesus is touched with the feelings of our infirmities and sympathizes with our weaknesses. Here is a verse....Heb.4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

God is the King. God is not just a buddy u go to the beach with come on now. yes i know if we do His will Jesus calls us friends. no need to bring that up.

Well, God is my Father now and we can call Him Daddy if we want to since the Bible says Romans 8:15
For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out "Abba! Father!" The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.

in Hebrew Abba Father means "Daddy" and I can go to Him as a beloved daughter because of Jesus. I can be very intimate with my Abba Father but if you don't want to that is up to you. I can "take Him" to the beach with me (He is always with me) and talk to Him about all the beauty He created. The Holy Spirit witnesses with my spirit that I am a daughter and loved and cared about and watched out for.

God isnt far away, but God isnt a human. sounds like u want to make God a man who feels like we do and is controlled by His emotions.

its like if we do something stupid and get burnt, then God comes in and says "there there, lean on my shoulder, im also hurt by what happened . i share ur pain"
whereas what God really probably is saying is "repent!"

very humanistic i must say. even scary.

I already had my sins forgiven at the time I was born again. They are buried in the deepest sea., they are as far as the east is from the west. IN Christ we no longer fear God as a judge but know Him as our loving heavenly Father who wants us to come to Him without fear of rejection or denial. He always has His arms open to us His sons and daughters all because of Jesus. He is far better than any human father.

SovereignGrace · Dec 3, 2017

I said mythical not mystical.

Please reread my post Sister. Thanks.

And I agree with you that God does not violate our free wills.

He can not violate that which does not exist.

That's why I said myTHical and not mySTical.

joaniemarie · Dec 3, 2017

Bogadile said:

In the context the word was given it made no sense that is why I had to laugh. Jesus came down as a man so He identified with us for our sake. The word "anthropomorphism" was used to say that is not what Jesus does. Saying that He doesn't identify with the characteristics of human behavior when in fact He certainly did and does. He does and is touched by the feelings of our infirmities.

I like big words and it's good to get out the handy-dandy dictionary. But the use of "anthropomorphism" was wrongly applied.

joaniemarie · Dec 3, 2017

SovereignGrace said:

OK., myTHical or mySTical.... both are words I did not use nor would use in regards to God's sovereignty and our free will. They are all yours and you're welcome to them.

SovereignGrace · Dec 3, 2017

joaniemarie posted...

joaniemarie said:

This is from Bible Hub...sorry, I am not that good with Greek(getting 'Greek for the rest of us' by William Mounce for Christmas, and hope to get a better grasp of it)...

Strong's Concordance

nekros: dead

Original Word: νεκρός, ά, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: nekros
Phonetic Spelling: (nek-ros')

Short Definition: dead, a corpse

Definition: (a) adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.HELPS Word-studies

3498 nekrós (an adjective, derived from nekys, "a corpse, a dead body") – dead; literally, "what lacks life"; dead; (figuratively) not able to respond to impulses, or perform functions ("unable, ineffective, dead, powerless," L & N, 1, 74.28); unresponsive to life-giving influences (opportunities); inoperative to the things of God.
3498 /nekrós ("corpse-like") is used as a noun in certain contexts ("the dead"), especially when accompanied by the Greek definite article. The phrase, ek nekron ("from the dead"), lacks the Greek article to give the sense "from what is of death."

'Dead' in Ephesians 2:3 means a literally dead corpse. As lost, unregenerate folk, that's what we were, dead inwardly, like a corpse floating like a long in a pond. That's why the analogy of tossing a flotation device to the lost is wrong. God doesn't toss a flotation device to us in hopes we will grab it and He can then drag us to shore. We can't reach out for it because we are floating in the water, dead, and not drowning. He goes out and brings us back to the shore and brings us to life, all of His doing.

And you were dead(nekros) in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),[Ephesians 2:1-5]

While we were dead, it was He who MADE us alive. It's 100% Him, 0% us.

joaniemarie · Dec 3, 2017

SovereignGrace said:

One of the reasons Calvinism is annoying is that some people decide not to pray intimately to their Father. Some figure they have God completely figured out and now they just have to keep Him there where they found Him. Since He is going to save who He will., we don't have to get out there and evangelize since if we don't go., He will send someone else. Makes for a lazy bunch of Calvins.

There are many many mysteries about God we will not be able to neatly put in a box and fold up when we want to. God is much bigger than that and His love for us grows in our understanding as we start to see Him better. His love is the same 50yrs after a person was saved as it was the moment that person got saved. But our ability to see His love changes as we grow in the faith.. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

What I said in my post that you didn't answer: Prayer changes things. Prayer and study allows us to magnify God in our lives. He has always been Great and High and lifted up but we will not see the completeness of Him here. AND YET the Holy Spirit gives us rivers of living water flowing in and through our inner most being. So we can grasp a bit of Him so as to magnify Him in our lives. We cannot make God bigger than He is but we can know Him better and more each day.

Our growing in faith is not just a suggestion but it is an admonishment for our own good. To grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That is one of our joyful jobs here. We are responsible to do this. If we don't agree to do this., the Lord WILL NOT force us. And that is what was said in my post. And many Christians don't live up to their potential as sons and daughters while here on earth because they don't walk by faith as much as they walk by their own shortsightedness. He will not force us to love Him with all our hearts.

I think some Christians make God so far off that He is unapproachable. And Jesus said He is the one we are to look at if we want to see the nature of the FAther.

Re: God's sovereignity and man's "freedom"...

Originally Posted by joaniemarie

A good question is what does God's sovereignty have to do with how we view Him and us? Does it mean God never changes His mind? Does it mean we can be on a course of destruction (and rightly so) but when we pray in the name of Jesus., God changes our course?.... but if we didn't pray., our course might not have been changed? Yes. Prayer changes things.

God's sovereignty is a fact but how it plays out in our lives is a mystery. What is not a mystery is we need to have a close relationship with Jesus every day that includes talking to Him and Him talking to us through the Holy Spirit and by reading the Bible and "allowing" the Holy Spirit to lead us if we want God's will done in our lives. If we don't do those things., God's will is not going to be done in our lives.

For myself., I don't worry about the major mysteries anymore but I do want to be in His will and how to be in His will is not a mystery.

Do you for one second think God changes His mind? For someone to change their mind, it means that they learned something that caused them to change it. If God changes His mind, then He is not omniscient. But who cares about God's attributes? Many on here sure don't.

joaniemarie · Dec 3, 2017

SovereignGrace said:

That's very nice. But I'm not a Calvinist anymore. I am well schooled in the teaching possibly more than most here .
The truth is I don't have it all figured out. I believe God wants us to walk one step at a time with the grace He gives us for that day. He doesn't want us to worry about tomorrow or try to figure out how we will deal with the next days issues. He gives us what we need right now and we can be secure in the knowledge.

How the Godhead decided to save humanity is a major mystery to me. But I believe He loves everyone and offers salvation to all. It's not His will that any should perish but that all would come. But not all will. I don't need to have it all figured out because I've walked with Jesus long enough to begin to trust His love for me. So it's OK with me that there are mysteries about God we are not privy to. It's OK to admit we don't have all the answers. And yet we can trust Him 100%

SovereignGrace · Dec 3, 2017

joaniemarie said:

And you have mainstream Calvinism confused with hyper-Calvinism. There is not a Calvinist worth his salt that isn't missions minded. Calvin was for missions, as he was overseer of 300 missionaries to France, iirc. Then there's William Carey who left England and went to India and toiled for seven years until he had his first convert to Christianity. He lost a child to dysentery and his wife went crazy whilst he was there. That's just two off the top of my head.

And Calvinists are very much into evangelizing ppl. I am a MISSIONARY Baptist myself, so I take this as an insult to my beliefs. Your side is the one who is anti-missionary. When asked what happens to those who died never hearing the gospel, the pat answer is Romans 1:20. Romans 1 speaks to man's ruin outside of the Christ, not that those who died never reading a bible, never had a missionary witness to them about the Christ, that they one day looked at the sun and clouds and said "there's a God that sent His Son to die for me! I now believe!!" Salvation does not work that way. Faith comes by hearing the gospel, and that is via the spoken word of one of God's ppl. Not someone in deepest darkest Africa getting saved through mystical(I used mystical here

) means.

joaniemarie · Dec 3, 2017

SovereignGrace said:

Yes., I understand what you are saying and I was not a "hyper-Calvinist" either. And I didn't say "all" I specifically said "some" Again, there are mysteries I no longer need to know the way I did when following the Calvinistic viewpoint. It's not important for me to have it all figured out. You don't know "my side" because I have not shared all I believe. So you should not be insulted either.

God can save people any way He wants to. He can send His Word any way He wants. There are things we just don't know but the things we do know are freely given to us. We can take those things as they say... to the bank. There are story after story about the Gospel truth coming to people out in the middle of no where. God is able to confound the wise of this world. What you would call "mystical" God would call business as usual.

SovereignGrace · Dec 3, 2017

joaniemarie said:

But God can not and will not violate His word. You are purporting a willy nilly God, one who saves ppl in one remote area of the world one way, and others who are in a populous place another. There's only one way to be saved, and that is via the gospel of the Christ.

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.[1 Cor. 1:21]

Here Paul says God was well-pleased to save ppl through the foolishness of the message preached. IOW, the word of God through His ppl, whether it be verbally spoken or through sign language to the deaf.

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,[Eph. 1:13]

Again, it is through the witness of one, or more, of God's ppl, whether it be via the spoken word or sign language to the deaf.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.[Rom. 1:16]

Again, it is through the spoken word or sign language to the deaf, that God saves ppl.

But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.” How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!” However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.[Rom. 10:8-17]

How can they have faith unless they hear the gospel? They can't. Yes, God can do as He pleases, however, He can't violate His own word, either. Anyone and everyone who is saved, has to hear the gospel. Faith comes from hearing it, so we are either Sola Scriptura or we are not. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. It does not come any other way.

SovereignGrace · Dec 3, 2017

Chime in Brother Bill.

You're lurking in the shadows too much. Jump in, the water's...brrrrrrrrrrr!!!!....fine...

SovereignGrace · Dec 3, 2017

Thanks for the rep, Brother Bill.

As you can see, mysticism is still alive in our churches today.

joaniemarie · Dec 3, 2017

SovereignGrace said:

I didn't say God doesn't use His Word. I said He could get His Word to anyone. Will repost again. You need to read my actual words. You still have not answered many of the questions brought up already about prayer.

Originally Posted by joaniemarie

Yes., I understand what you are saying and I was not a "hyper-Calvinist" either. And I didn't say "all" I specifically said "some" Again, there are mysteries I no longer need to know the way I did when following the Calvinistic viewpoint. It's not important for me to have it all figured out. You don't know "my side" because I have not shared all I believe. So you should not be insulted either.

God can save people any way He wants to. He can send His Word any way He wants. There are things we just don't know but the things we do know are freely given to us. We can take those things as they say... to the bank. There are story after story about the Gospel truth coming to people out in the middle of no where. God is able to confound the wise of this world. What you would call "mystical" God would call business as usual.

Beez · Dec 3, 2017

Will not every one of us be amazed when we are finally with Him, and He says to me, "This is what you thought: . . . . This is what I said: . . . . You misunderstood,

"

Then He turns to you and says, "This is what you thought: . . . . This is what I said: . . . . You misunderstood,

"

SovereignGrace · Dec 3, 2017

joaniemarie said:

But its solely through the proclamation of the gospel. And this is done by His ppl witnessing, teaching, preaching it to them. There is no other way God saves ppl. Are we in agreement here?

In regards to prayer, we are to pray in accordance to God's will. However, there are many times we do not know exactly what His will is. That is why we beseech Him many times. Daniel prayed for 21 days before he got an answer. But we are to ask in prayer that His will be done it that prayer. I prayed for my dad's healing(kidney failure that led to dialysis), but after years, I finally asked Him to take him home if there was no healing for him. I didn't want to see him to continue suffering. God took him home at 5:35 AM 4/17/2015. I was in the room with him as he left. That was not easy, but I believe he is at rest now. I bent my will to God's. My will was for him to be healed, God's will was to take him home.

God's sovereignity and man's "freedom"...

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