Gospel Confusion...

[Pilgrimshope]

Agree.
Would be interested to know when you think our sins were forgiven?
Is there a difference between remission and forgiveness?
who was Peter addressing at Pentecost?
Was it the Jews?

Do you think the difference of the baptism formula baptism doctrine that those who preach such have their works tested and one will still be saved by the fire per Corinthians (which I believe to adding to the foundation of Jesus. Ie doctrine?

“who was Peter addressing at Pentecost?
Was it the Jews?”

yeah peter was beginning to carry out what Jesus commanded him bro

“and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:46-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

remember what else he told them

“And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭

that began right here

“repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.””

“And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


……Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. ……And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:4, 38-39, 41, 47‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when you ask if it was Jews yes the entire first church was Jewish Paul was a Jewish Pharisee . And also first preached also to Jews . it wasn’t until Peter was sent to the gentiles and they received the holy ghost that gentiles really began to gather with Jews but it didn’t change baptism see this is a group of gentiles here and it’s both water and spirit as well as Jesus name

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. ( spirit ) …For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, ( water ) which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:44, 46-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

theres no difference in Jew and gentile when you get baptized bro

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭

remember Gods word says you were baptized into death with Jesus for your sins . But who you are now is a new creation not a Jew or gentile because who you were is meant to have died by faith through baptism so that we can live a new life of freedom

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death you died )


that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”( your new life is as a born again child of God and goer of Abraham’s promise)
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s for all sinners and is for remission of thier sins

 

[Pilgrimshope]

How is someone baptized into Christ? Who does it? Where is it found in scripture?
What causes one individual to respond positively and another to react negatively?

bro you aren’t going to ever accept anything I say or any scripture I show you about baptism.

“What causes one individual to respond positively and another to react negatively?”

You tell Me Cameron does god force one person to believe and forbid another ? Or how does that work bro you tell me

 

[Cameron143]

bro you aren’t going to ever accept anything I say or any scripture I show you about baptism.

“What causes one individual to respond positively and another to react negatively?”

You tell Me Cameron does god force one person to believe and forbid another ? Or how does that work bro you tell me

People who are spiritually dead don't become spiritually alive by themselves. People who don't seek after God don't suddenly just start seeking God apart from grace. People who are hostile in the minds towards God and enslaved by Satan don't just suddenly cast off sin and begin obeying God and free themselves from Satan's snare. It takes God to bring life, impart grace, change a heart, and bring true freedom to an individual. Salvation is nothing short of God transforming an individual's mind, heart, and will and making them partakers of the divine nature. Salvation is an intimate coming of God to an individual to make them His own.
Who then can be saved?What is impossible for man is not so impossible with God.

 

[Cameron143]

bro you aren’t going to ever accept anything I say or any scripture I show you about baptism.

“What causes one individual to respond positively and another to react negatively?”

You tell Me Cameron does god force one person to believe and forbid another ? Or how does that work bro you tell me

The baptism that places an individual into Christ...1 Corinthians 12:13...is not water baptism.

 

[PaulThomson]

Verses 5-8, 12

Sorry, but I do not see "born from above" in those verses. Which translation are you using? Please, poat the full verses and highlight the words in those verses for me.

 

[PaulThomson]

People who are spiritually dead don't become spiritually alive by themselves. People who don't seek after God don't suddenly just start seeking God apart from grace. People who are hostile in the minds towards God and enslaved by Satan don't just suddenly cast off sin and begin obeying God and free themselves from Satan's snare. It takes God to bring life, impart grace, change a heart, and bring true freedom to an individual. Salvation is nothing short of God transforming an individual's mind, heart, and will and making them partakers of the divine nature. Salvation is an intimate coming of God to an individual to make them His own.
Who then can be saved?What is impossible for man is not so impossible with God.

It seems that according to the theory of Omni-faceted Imperfection (often dishonestly called Total Depravity, which no one actually believes in) a spiritually dead person can to everything a spiritually alive person can do, except believe in Jesus.

People in real life go through recurring phases of seeking God and giving up their search. People in real life go through recurring phases of shunning particular sins and approving of them. This idea that people are only desiring evil in every way until God suddenly gives them a heart transplant that makes them want only good, or a heart transplant that makes them suddenly capable of sometimes wanting good, is a figment of the imagination. That is not a model that fits the reality we see happening around us and in us.

 

[PaulThomson]

Reduce the amount? Is that what you are trusting in for salvation? Your performance? So, you don't believe the gospel?

So, do you believe you don't need to be reducing the amount of evil you do to be being saved from the world, the flesh and the devil? Is salvation merely a permanently valid keep out of hell free card issued when one in some single instance trusts Jesus to pay for my sins..

 

[Pilgrimshope]

People who are spiritually dead don't become spiritually alive by themselves. People who don't seek after God don't suddenly just start seeking God apart from grace. People who are hostile in the minds towards God and enslaved by Satan don't just suddenly cast off sin and begin obeying God and free themselves from Satan's snare. It takes God to bring life, impart grace, change a heart, and bring true freedom to an individual. Salvation is nothing short of God transforming an individual's mind, heart, and will and making them partakers of the divine nature. Salvation is an intimate coming of God to an individual to make them His own.
Who then can be saved?What is impossible for man is not so impossible with God.

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


…….“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭

Bro i don’t want to argue there’s a few things I disagree with in your post there but we’ve probably already argued about those before hahs so I digress lol

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The baptism that places an individual into Christ...1 Corinthians 12:13...is not water baptism.

Yes your opinion has been stated a few times definately clear to me that you think that……

 

[Ouch]

Nothing. No one can make themselves reborn. That is a work of God.

Morning, I just read all 4 of you post

GOD made it possible for us to be reborn, the thing we have to do is OBEY his word.

Do you think GOD just picks some? Where if free will?

I think why you can't see is you think that JESUS mission was done at the cross.

But it was not, his job as a human was but not spiritually.

JESUS is our high priest and he became our sacrifice our lamb.
When JESUS was on this earth and forgave sins as he wished like the thief.

JESUS preach app 3 years, died on the cross, buried and rose again. Then he ascended to Heaven to put his blood on the mercy seat.

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

He then returned to earth and was here app 40 days and ascended again commanding his disciples to wait because they will be filled with the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:4-5

Millions died on the cross what made JESUS special is he ROSE again.

When we get baptized in JESUS name it is symbolic of being buried with him WE GO INTO a watery grave and come out a new creature.

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Be best to read the whole chapter.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

NOTHING LIVES WITHOUT WATER!!

Hope this clears things up.

 

[mailmandan]

So, do you believe you don't need to be reducing the amount of evil you do to be being saved from the world, the flesh and the devil? Is salvation merely a permanently valid keep out of hell free card issued when one in some single instance trusts Jesus to pay for my sins..

It sounds to me like you confuse justification with ongoing sanctification and trust more in your performance of sinning less to pay for your sins than you do in Jesus. Those who believe the gospel trust exclusively in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23) For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23) Believers are new creations in Christ Jesus and have become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Corinthians 5:17, 21) We have been changed. Praise God!

As for a change in behavior (reducing the amount of evil you do) as you put it. 1 John 3:7 - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. Salvation is not about a permanent get out of hell free card for pseudo-Christians who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness.

 

[mailmandan]

The baptism that places an individual into Christ...1 Corinthians 12:13...is not water baptism.

All false religions and cults that promote salvation by works place a heavy emphasis on salvation by water baptism, including Roman Catholicism, Mormonism and Oneness Pentecostalism which says it all for me. Mark 16:16(b) along with John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25-26 trumps their eisegesis of "baptized or condemned" in Mark 16:16.

In regard to Acts 2:38, these folks fail to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching their conclusion on doctrine. It's faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) that brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18) *Perfect Harmony* One must not rely on pet verses to establish a biased doctrine but must look to the totality of scripture to establish the proper doctrine.

In regard to Acts 10:34-35, working righteousness is the result of having been saved through faith. We are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5) but works of righteousness in connection with salvation are the fruit of, not the means of obtaining salvation. God accepts those who fear Him and work righteousness from a right principle, and to a right end, yet their fear of Him and working righteousness are not the origin of their acceptance; but are to be considered as descriptive of the persons, who are accepted by Him in Christ.

We must not confuse "descriptive" passages of scripture (Acts 10:35) with "prescriptive" passages of scripture (Acts 10:43). We are to rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15) The question here is whether God's favor is made available to Jews only or is now available to Gentiles also (those in every nation who fear Him and work righteousness/does what is right) which Peter learned in his vision in Acts 10.

 

[hornetguy]

How is someone baptized into Christ? Who does it? Where is it found in scripture?

Acts 2:38 is one of the first instances of it, after the resurrection.

 

[hornetguy]

It's faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) that brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Again, brother, you are half right.
Repentance is the first part of it, otherwise baptism is just being dunked.
It's a pretty simple "and" logic sequence that Peter gave at the foundation of Jesus' church, or body at Pentecost.
Repent "and" be baptized "and" you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. NOT "either/or".... This was the first time the question was asked, what must we do? And, the answer was plain, and straightforward.

 

[Cameron143]

It seems that according to the theory of Omni-faceted Imperfection (often dishonestly called Total Depravity, which no one actually believes in) a spiritually dead person can to everything a spiritually alive person can do, except believe in Jesus.

People in real life go through recurring phases of seeking God and giving up their search. People in real life go through recurring phases of shunning particular sins and approving of them. This idea that people are only desiring evil in every way until God suddenly gives them a heart transplant that makes them want only good, or a heart transplant that makes them suddenly capable of sometimes wanting good, is a figment of the imagination. That is not a model that fits the reality we see happening around us and in us.

You don't understand omni-faceted imperfection. And if you don't understand the difference between a new creation and a natural person, its little wonder why. Can an unsaved individual have the love of God shed abroad in their heart? Can they know the mind of Christ? Can they commune with the Almighty? Enter His presence? Partake of the divine nature? Love as Christ loves?

The natural man is vastly different than a man who has been saved.

 

[Cameron143]

Acts 2:38 is one of the first instances of it, after the resurrection.

They were dunked in water, not placed into Christ. Being placed into Christ is an operation of the Spirit...1 Corinthians 12:13. According to Jesus, it can't be scheduled because the Spirit moves sovereignly according to John 3.

 

[mailmandan]

Again, brother, you are half right.
Repentance is the first part of it, otherwise baptism is just being dunked.
It's a pretty simple "and" logic sequence that Peter gave at the foundation of Jesus' church, or body at Pentecost.
Repent "and" be baptized "and" you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. NOT "either/or".... This was the first time the question was asked, what must we do? And, the answer was plain, and straightforward.

Was the question and answer not plain, and straightforward in Acts 16:30-31, when the Philippian jailer asked, "what must I do to be saved" and the answer was, "believe on/in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Not be baptized and you will be saved. Baptism followed.

Also, are not the words of Peter in Acts 10:43-47 not plain, and straightforward? Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. (spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

*Believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues, saved BEFORE water baptism. Scripture must harmonize with scripture or else we have a contradiction and there are no contradictions in God's word.

You make it sound like water baptism is meaningless if it's not absolutely necessary for salvation. Is circumcision meaningless for the Jews? Is it absolutely necessary for salvation? Baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it pictures Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences. In reality, believers are literally saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Baptism would have no meaning without Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, but Christ’s death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism. In other words, Christ’s death, burial and resurrection is the substance and baptism is the symbol/picture. Without the substance there would be no symbol/picture.

 

[mailmandan]

They were dunked in water, not placed into Christ. Being placed into Christ is an operation of the Spirit...1 Corinthians 12:13. According to Jesus, it can't be scheduled because the Spirit moves sovereignly according to John 3.

Amen! There is a distinction between water baptism and Spirit baptism. Matthew 3:11 - “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. We are baptized by one Spirit (the Holy Spirit) into one body/the body of Christ. (1 Corinthians 12:13) Water baptism/plain ordinary H20 has no power to do this.

Now in what "sense" would be water baptized into Christ? In the same sense that the Israelites were baptized into Moses. (1 Corinthians 10:2) The Israelites were not literally water baptized into the body of Moses and there is little dispute that being "baptized into Moses" signified the open allegiance and public identification of the Israelites with Moses as their leader. Moses was formally recognized as the leader of the covenant people. Water baptism signifies our allegiance and public identification with Christ as our Savior, so it would only be in that sense.

 

[PaulThomson]

It sounds to me like you confuse justification with ongoing sanctification and trust more in your performance of sinning less to pay for your sins than you do in Jesus. Those who believe the gospel trust exclusively in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23) For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23) Believers are new creations in Christ Jesus and have become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Corinthians 5:17, 21) We have been changed. Praise God!

As for a change in behavior (reducing the amount of evil you do) as you put it. 1 John 3:7 - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. Salvation is not about a permanent get out of hell free card for pseudo-Christians who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness.

Rom 5:10
For if (εἰ γὰρ), enemies (ἐχθροὶ) while being (ὄντες ), we were reconciled (κατηλλάγημεν, aorist passive indicative) to the God (τῷ θεῷ) through the death (διὰ τοῦ θανάτου) of the Son (τοῦ υἱοῦ) of him (αὐτοῦ ) much more ( πολλῷ μᾶλλον) , after being reconciled (καταλλαγέντες, aorist passive participle), we shall be saved (σωθησόμεθα, future passive indicative) in/by the life ( ἐν τῇ ζωῇ) of him (αὐτοῦ).
For if, while being enemies ,we are/were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more after being reconciled we shall be being saved in/by His life.

This does not say that we are being saved by His resurrection, but by His life; His resurrection life at work in us to will and to do what pleases God.

It does not say that faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus saved us, but it says that we are (in principle, i.e. aorist passive indicative) or were (in practice, i.e. aorist passive indicative) reconciled to God by Jesus' death. However, it does not follow this up by saying we are (in principle, i.e. aorist passive indicative) or we were (in practice, i.e. aorist passive indicative) saved by His resurrection; nor that we are (in principle, i.e. aorist passive indicative) or we were (in practice, i.e. aorist passive indicative) saved by His life . But it next says that after being reconciled, we shall be being saved by His life. Being saved by His life is apparently not a done deal when we believe in His death and resurrection. Being saved by His life is an on-going process that continues into the future and happens after being reconciled (aorist passive participle). It does not happen while being reconciled (present passive participle).

It sounds to me that you are confusing justification with salvation. Justificatuion is a necessary part of the process of salvation, but is not all of the process of salvation.

 

[PaulThomson]

You don't understand omni-faceted imperfection. And if you don't understand the difference between a new creation and a natural person, its little wonder why. Can an unsaved individual have the love of God shed abroad in their heart? Can they know the mind of Christ? Can they commune with the Almighty? Enter His presence? Partake of the divine nature? Love as Christ loves?

The natural man is vastly different than a man who has been saved.

Oh. I understand there is a difference. The man who has received the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit has power and resources at his disposal that enable him/her to more consistently be Christlike, do the will of God, and so to sin less. But the unregenerate man is not as godless, wicked and lacking in righteousness as your theory proposes.