Grace alone or grace plus works?

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Is salvation by Grace alone?

  • Salvation Is by Grace alone through faith.

    Votes: 42 87.5%
  • Salvation Is by Grace through faith plus works

    Votes: 6 12.5%

  • Total voters
    48

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,884
29,274
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If a Mormon believes he possesses unquestionable assurance how can he ever be converted??
I see. So your question is, how can someone in a cult ever be convinced of the fact that they are in a cult? Or, how can someone who believes they are in possession of the truth, when their beliefs contradict clear Biblical teachings, ever be convinced that they are wrong, and be converted to the Truth? I am trying to understand your question. Still, Scripture is written so that we may know we are saved. We may disagree in what we believe Scripture teaches, but at the end of the day, each believes something because we think it is right. Yes, Mormons believe they have been converted and are in possession of the truth, and Christians generally think Mormons are wrong in their beliefs (and for good reasons :)).
 

sonshyne

Junior Member
Nov 20, 2017
1
0
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i think when Jesus said, "It is finished." He actually meant that. i, personally, find it offensive to think that we need to add something to what He did on the cross. Like our trying to be good needs to be added to that.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
I see. So your question is, how can someone in a cult ever be convinced of the fact that they are in a cult? Or, how can someone who believes they are in possession of the truth, when their beliefs contradict clear Biblical teachings, ever be convinced that they are wrong, and be converted to the Truth? I am trying to understand your question. Still, Scripture is written so that we may know we are saved. We may disagree in what we believe Scripture teaches, but at the end of the day, each believes something because we think it is right. Yes, Mormons believe they have been converted and are in possession of the truth, and Christians generally think Mormons are wrong in their beliefs (and for good reasons :)).
Having assurance that God is willing and able to save whom He chooses is quite different then someone claiming to possess an unquestionable assurance of personal salvation.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
I see. So your question is, how can someone in a cult ever be convinced of the fact that they are in a cult? Or, how can someone who believes they are in possession of the truth, when their beliefs contradict clear Biblical teachings, ever be convinced that they are wrong, and be converted to the Truth? I am trying to understand your question. Still, Scripture is written so that we may know we are saved. We may disagree in what we believe Scripture teaches, but at the end of the day, each believes something because we think it is right. Yes, Mormons believe they have been converted and are in possession of the truth, and Christians generally think Mormons are wrong in their beliefs (and for good reasons :)).
Amen Magenta, keep preaching the word!

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so "that you may know" that you have eternal life." 1John5:13
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
59
48
Amen Magenta, keep preaching the word!

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so "that you may know" that you have eternal life." 1John5:13

Most false religions get choked up on John 14:1-6 with verse 6 being the one that chokes them up..It is hard to get past that one verse and symbolize, allegorize, deny this and deny that, add a little here and a little there. In the end, it still comes back down to this one verse.

John 14:6..."Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."






 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
Amen Magenta, keep preaching the word!

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so "that you may know" that you have eternal life." 1John5:13
There is quite a bit of difference between "that you may know" vs. "that you will know". Knowing a blessing exist is not a conformation that you are assured of the benefits of the blessing.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
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There is quite a bit of difference between "that you may know" vs. "that you will know". Knowing a blessing exist is not a conformation that you are assured of the benefits of the blessing.
Please do a search of "assurance of salvation of the believer"; you will find it everywhere in the bible from Genesis to Revelation, not to mention that the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that these things are true. If after that you are still not convince of the assurance of the believer ask someone else on this website to show you, there are many who do.
 
Dec 9, 2011
14,111
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i think when Jesus said, "It is finished." He actually meant that. i, personally, find it offensive to think that we need to add something to what He did on the cross. Like our trying to be good needs to be added to that.
I think many are looking at It this way,The same GOD that spoke In the Old covenant Is the same GOD that spoke the New covenant and since GOD does not change we should try to keep the law and be under grace at the same time.

Some believe that salvation Is by Grace through faith alone but some believe That salvation Is by Grace through faith plus works.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,421
6,700
113
It is happening again. Some folks are not reading all of your post, or, they are just plain ignorant. Not worth responding on that latter because these folks are building on sand...

History is littered with people who sincerely believed they were full of the Holy Spirit, putting others first, seeking the truth, possessing gifts from God, walking hand in hand with God so on and so on. Some were sincerely wrong, others were delusional, many were just ignorant some just arrogant and a few humble ones were quite correct.

The point is to be on guard, test ourselves and never ever convince yourself that you possess unquestionable assurance.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,464
13,409
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i think when Jesus said, "It is finished." He actually meant that. i, personally, find it offensive to think that we need to add something to what He did on the cross. Like our trying to be good needs to be added to that.
Amen! Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. ;)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,464
13,409
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It is happening again. Some folks are not reading all of your post, or, they are just plain ignorant. Not worth responding on that latter because these folks are building on sand...
In Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works, as some would suppose. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock and it stands. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand and it collapses.

Those deceived by their own self-righteousness in Matthew 7:22-23 were "outwardly" doing all the things that the righteous would do yet they did not truly know Christ (had no personal relationship with Christ - John 17:3) which stemmed from not truly believing in Him. The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness.

*Only those who truly believe in Him (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..) are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. *The foolish man twists the words of Jesus and acts on their own self-righteous works system and calls that acting on the words of Jesus.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
How could anyone be converted if they believed they possessed unquestionable assurance?
As far as I know only one group believes they have unquestionable assurance. All other groups think their assurance is not assured (salvation can be lost) which is no assurance at all.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
????????????????

If a Mormon believes he possesses unquestionable assurance how can he ever be converted??

A Mormon does not believe this. All Mormons believe salvation is not secure.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
i think when Jesus said, "It is finished." He actually meant that. i, personally, find it offensive to think that we need to add something to what He did on the cross. Like our trying to be good needs to be added to that.

Amen, as I like to say, Jesus did not say, “It is finished, I did my part. Now you must do yours”
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Amen Magenta, keep preaching the word!

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so "that you may know" that you have eternal life." 1John5:13

Amen,, It makes me wonder how people can ot have assurance, John did not say, he wrote those things to us so we may be warned that we might have eternal life and need to keep working hard.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
There is quite a bit of difference between "that you may know" vs. "that you will know". Knowing a blessing exist is not a conformation that you are assured of the benefits of the blessing.

Knowing you have eternal life. How much more assurance do you need?

John stated a fact. Our continued faith is powered by the fact we KNOW we HAVE eternal life.

If we are not assure of our salvation. Our faith will not stand.. How can you hae a faith in a hoper which is not assured?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,464
13,409
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A Mormon does not believe this. All Mormons believe salvation is not secure.
Roman Catholics also believe that salvation is not secure and the Roman Catholic church even teaches something called the "sin of presumption" which states that it is a sin for one to believe that he or she is assured of his or her salvation.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,464
13,409
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Knowing you have eternal life. How much more assurance do you need?

John stated a fact. Our continued faith is powered by the fact we KNOW we HAVE eternal life.

If we are not assure of our salvation. Our faith will not stand.. How can you hae a faith in a hoper which is not assured?
If someone believes that salvation is "obtained" and "maintained" by works, then they could NEVER have absolute assurance of salvation because they would always be wondering if their performance measures up, which is not genuine faith and hope.

Also, unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope.

If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:1).

Titus 3:7 - so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
A Mormon does not believe this. All Mormons believe salvation is not secure.
It is not the Mormon's assurance of his individual future outcome on judgement day that is the question. It is the notion that Mormon theology is unquestionably assured to be true. If Mormon theology is false than having 100% assurance in its tenets is worthless.

To be able to claim unquestionable assurance one must first be able to know without a doubt that their theology is correct and also that they have fulfilled the requirements of said theology. I cannot see how someone can honestly say yes to either of these points.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
I think many are looking at It this way,The same GOD that spoke In the Old covenant Is the same GOD that spoke the New covenant and since GOD does not change we should try to keep the law and be under grace at the same time.

Some believe that salvation Is by Grace through faith alone but some believe That salvation Is by Grace through faith plus works.
There is certainly misunderstandings. Grace comes "Through Faith". Faith without works is dead. But we all have works. Catholics do Lent and eat fish on Friday. This is their religious tradition. If I see someone following this church tradition, I know what their "Faith" is. We all have faith in something.

But only by Faith in the God of Abraham, which became a man in the person of Jesus and purchased me with His Blood, can we have life.

Part of that Faith must entail trust in His Instructions as the Faith of Abraham shows us.

Abraham believed in God enough to follow His Instructions and the New Testament calls this "Faith".

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

There have been forces working to deceive people into disobedience since satan used part God's Words to deceive Eve.

We know Jesus said not everyone is saved by His Grace. It would be good if people would do a word study on what "Work iniquity" means. There wouldn't so much division if everyone understood Matt. 7:22.