Grace through faith AND the law dont mix?

[RickyZ]

Is " I will never leave you" the same as "I will never let you leave me"?

Is "I will hold on to you forever" the same as "you can not let go of me"?

Is "you must have faith to be saved" the same as "you are saved if you abandon your faith"?

Is "I will never turn away from you" the same as "you can never turn away from me?"

Is "you may freely enter my house" the same as "you are not free to leave my house"?

Some of you make God sound like the Eagle's Hotel California... "you can check in any time you like, but you can never leave..."

 

[BibleGuy]

Is " I will never leave you" the same as "I will never let you leave me"?

Is "I will hold on to you forever" the same as "you can not let go of me"?

Is "you must have faith to be saved" the same as "you are saved if you abandon your faith"?

Is "I will never turn away from you" the same as "you can never turn away from me?"

Is "you may freely enter my house" the same as "you are not free to leave my house"?

Some of you make God sound like the Eagle's Hotel California... "you can check in any time you like, but you can never leave..."

Hi RickyZ,

I trust we agree that a righteous (i.e., Torah-obedient) person can abandon his righteous ways and turn to evil (i.e., Torah-disobedient) ways (Eze. 18:24).

But the Psalmist distinguishes between the wicked person and the righteous person (Ps. 1:6).

AND, the righteous person delights in Torah (Ps. 1:2), but the wicked person forsakes Torah (Ps. 119:53).

So, when the Psalmist says that he did not forsake YHVH's precepts (Ps. 119:87), it follows that he ALSO DID OBEY the precepts.

Why? Because the broader context of Scripture (as I've shown here) requires this inference.

CONCLUSION: In the case of Ps. 119:87, "I do not forsake the precepts" entails "I obey the precepts".

Likewise, the fact that Paul did not teach Jews to forsake Mosaic law (Ac. 21) entails that Paul taught Jews to obey Mosaic law.

Let's state this again! Paul taught Jewish believers to OBEY TORAH!!! Paul took a vow to PROVE this is true (Ac. 21).

When is the last time you heard your pastor teach that believing Jews should obey Torah (as Paul taught)?

Alas....we don't hear this because our Christian establishment is generally ignorant of this element of Pauline theology and practice.

And, I also agree with you that "God will never turn away from me" does not require "I can never turn away from God".

best...
BibleGuy

 

[Wall]

When is the last time you heard your pastor teach that believing Jews should obey Torah (as Paul taught)?

He also taught the gentiles to obey the Torah

ROMANS 2 [12] For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; [13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Hi RickyZ,

I trust we agree that a righteous (i.e., Torah-obedient) person can abandon his righteous ways and turn to evil (i.e., Torah-disobedient) ways (Eze. 18:24).

But the Psalmist distinguishes between the wicked person and the righteous person (Ps. 1:6).

AND, the righteous person delights in Torah (Ps. 1:2), but the wicked person forsakes Torah (Ps. 119:53).

So, when the Psalmist says that he did not forsake YHVH's precepts (Ps. 119:87), it follows that he ALSO DID OBEY the precepts.

Why? Because the broader context of Scripture (as I've shown here) requires this inference.

CONCLUSION: In the case of Ps. 119:87, "I do not forsake the precepts" entails "I obey the precepts".

Likewise, the fact that Paul did not teach Jews to forsake Mosaic law (Ac. 21) entails that Paul taught Jews to obey Mosaic law.

Let's state this again! Paul taught Jewish believers to OBEY TORAH!!! Paul took a vow to PROVE this is true (Ac. 21).

When is the last time you heard your pastor teach that believing Jews should obey Torah (as Paul taught)?

Alas....we don't hear this because our Christian establishment is generally ignorant of this element of Pauline theology and practice.

And, I also agree with you that "God will never turn away from me" does not require "I can never turn away from God".

best...
BibleGuy

Is circumcision in the mosaic law? I know it isn't in the NT so am assuming it's in the mosaic law.
So when Paul said you are neither harmed nor helped by it but that true circumcision is of the heart, how was that teaching them to obey the mosaic law?

 

[Wall]

Is circumcision in the mosaic law? I know it isn't in the NT so am assuming it's in the mosaic law.
So when Paul said you are neither harmed nor helped by it but that true circumcision is of the heart, how was that teaching them to obey the mosaic law?

1 COR. 7 [19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

From the writings of Paul

 

[Willie-T]

Is circumcision in the mosaic law? I know it isn't in the NT so am assuming it's in the mosaic law.
So when Paul said you are neither harmed nor helped by it but that true circumcision is of the heart, how was that teaching them to obey the mosaic law?

As a religious rite, circumcision was required of all of Abraham’s descendants as a sign of the covenant God made with him (Genesis 17:9–14; Acts 7:8). The Mosaic Law repeated the requirement (Leviticus 12:2–3), and Jews throughout the centuries have continued to practice circumcision (Joshua 5:2–3; Luke 1:59; Acts 16:3; Philippians 3:5).
Got Questions?.org

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yes but the poster said that Paul taught jews to obey the mosaic law. It doesn't appear to me that Paul did, byt he verse given...

 

[Grandpa]

He also taught the gentiles to obey the Torah

ROMANS 2 [12] For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; [13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.

That's not obedience to a written Torah.

That's abiding in Christ. That's the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 3:6-8
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

Torah is described as the ministration of death in Pauls letter to the Corinthians. Why? Because it is the letter.

No Spirit, No obedience.

 

[TheAristocat]

Thats what i keep hearing but where are the scriptures that say this. I cant find em. I have found plenty of scriptures that say Christians are to keep Gods law AND the faith in Jesus. We can never be saved simply by keeping the law as we all have fallen short. We are saved by the grace of God alone. Big question is...is there something we must do in order to recieve this free gift of grace?

The only thing required to receive this free gift of grace is to place our faith in the Gospel.

As for Law and Grace being mutually exclusive, I don't understand that either. We live in physical (not spiritual) countries that have physical (not spiritual) laws, and our behavior is bound by those laws. That doesn't mean we have to give up the gift of salvation God has given us in order to observe criminal or civil law. And we don't let sociopathic murderers run around and continue to do as they please just because we are saved by grace. The two do not conflict in my mind. God gave us his Law, a law that Scripture calls holy. That doesn't just mean that the so-called "moral" part of the Law is holy. It means the whole Law is holy. There was no distinction between moral and ritual when it was so-called. I believe there is merit in all of it, so I believe we should obey it today.

Do I just love rituals? Not really. I actually dislike them more than I like them. But would it make me feel like God is more a part of my life if I had to take time out to acknowledge him every day in some small sacrificial way? Yes, it would.

 

[Wall]

That's not obedience to a written Torah.

That's abiding in Christ. That's the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 3:6-8
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

Torah is described as the ministration of death in Pauls letter to the Corinthians. Why? Because it is the letter.

No Spirit, No obedience.

2 COR. 3 [6] WHO ALSO HATH MADE US ABLE MINISTERS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT; NOT OF THE LETTER, BUT OF THE SPIRIT: FOR THE LETTER KILLETH, BUT THE SPIRIT GIVETH LIFE. [7] But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: [8] How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

ROMANS 7 [4] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. [5] For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. [6] But now we are DELIVERED FROM THE LAW, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should SERVE IN NEWNESS OF SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE OLDNESS OF THE LETTER.

As you can see in above scriptures we are now to walk in the spirit of the law. If we walk only in the letter of the law this will lead to death, but if we walk in the spirit of the law this leads to life.


MATTHEW 5 [20] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. [21] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, THOU SHALT NOT KILL; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: [22] BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, THAT WHOSOEVER IS ANGRY WITH HIS BROTHER WITHOUT A CAUSE SHALL BE IN DANGER OF THE JUDGMENT: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

OLD LETTER- Thou shalt not kill
NEW SPIRIT- Don’t even get angry. Call no man a fool. Love one another in thought, word and deed.

MATTHEW 5 [27] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, thou shalt not commit adultery: [28] But i say unto you, that WHOSOEVER LOOKETH ON A WOMAN TO LUST AFTER HER HATH COMMITTED ADULTERY with her already in his heart.

OLD LETTER- Thou shalt not commit adultery
NEW SPIRIT- Do not look on a woman to lust. Keep the law in our mind and spirit. Even in our eyes.

So you can see that Jesus did not do away with the letter of the law. Common sense will tell ya in order to walk in the spirit of the law you must also be walking in the letter. Jesus made the commandments even harder to keep and more honorable.

ISAIAH 42 [20] Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.[21] The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; HE WILL MAGNIFY THE LAW, and make it honourable.

Yes, Jesus magnified the law. He took the letter of the law (which leads to death) and magnified the law to a spiritual level (which leads to life).