Grappling With Why God Allows Evil To Continue

[trofimus]

Would the tendency to sin come from being of the flesh, earthly? The sin nature is what we inherited as a result of Adam's sin. There is a good read on it here: https://www.gotquestions.org/sin-nature.html

I think that the article of that link is quite inconsistent.

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They define the sin nature as:
"When we speak of the sin nature, we refer to the fact that we have a natural inclination to sin; given the choice to do God’s will or our own, we will naturally choose to do our own thing."

But about the origin of it they say:
"By that one action [Eve´ disobedience], sin entered into their nature."

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Which does not make sense, because she chose to do her own thing before the act.

 

[trofimus]

The sin nature was inherited by humanity from Adam. The tendency to sin was within Adam and Eve as shown in the Fall. We really cannot go much beyond that. Rationally and logically, they had absolutely no compelling reason to disobey God. The Garden of Eden was literally a Paradise and they lacked absolutely nothing.

You used two different terms but you did not put before us any difference between these...

If Adam/Eve did not inherit it, how is it possible they had it, in your view.

 

[Magenta]

I think that the article of that link is quite inconsistent.

-------

They define the sin nature as:
"When we speak of the sin nature, we refer to the fact that we have a natural inclination to sin; given the choice to do God’s will or our own, we will naturally choose to do our own thing."

But about the origin of it they say:
"By that one action [Eve´ disobedience], sin entered into their nature."

-------

Which does not make sense, because she chose to do her own thing before the act.

I think what it is saying is that sin was a potential (nature of the flesh), and then actualized, which we have inherited as a reality. A conundrum for me is the fear of death being the cause for slavery to sin. The Tree of Life was right there, but we are told of no promises given to them concerning it... they wanted to be like God, though, without actually listening to God, and the lie Satan told them was that they surely would not die. So the conundrum is, if they did not want to die, why not eat of the Tree of Life instead? It seems to come back to their desire to be like God.

 

[trofimus]

I think what it is saying is that sin was a potential (nature of the flesh), and then actualized, which we have inherited as a reality.

Similar to Nehemiah6: what is the difference?

How exactly it was not a reality for them, when they sinned ?

 

[Magenta]

Similar to Nehemiah6: what is the difference?

How exactly it was not a reality for them, when they sinned ?

It is a good question I can only say it became a reality for them when they actually sinned. Up till then they had walked with God, and it was only a potential, though God knew they would before they did. As you say, they were not perfect. Are we not perfected in Christ?

 

[Magenta]

 

[FlSnookman7]

I notice we tend to focus on eve, but she was deceived, it was adam who sinned. Thank you all for the replies, gives me much to study. Shalom.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

You don't see a difference in being hit directly by a supernatural being with a whirlwind that collapses a house on you and then you're dead, end of story, versus a man influenced in his heart by a supernatural being selling you into slavery, creating awful circumstances for you but you're still alive?

It's no biggie if both sets of circumstances look identical to you as pertains to the level of force brought to bear against you, but I do see a difference.

I mostly was trying to help you to maybe not absolutely have to insist on Job as allegory in order to piece it all together in your mind. I was just trying to help you work on it with the option of maybe not having to insist it has to be allegory and is impossible that it could have involved a real live man. I was trying to help your argument, not mine, because I don't have a problem with Job and peter showing that satan has to ask permission before a direct hit and I can see a difference between a direct hit on a human from a supernatural being versus a human heart influenced to sin against a man.

I completely agree with your last paragraph by the way.

It did happen to a real live man - Definitions of allegory:

• a story, poem, or picture which can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one. (Google)
• a story in which the characters and events are symbols that stand for ideas about human life or for a political or historical situation; a symbolic representation of something else (Merriam-Webster)
• a literary device in which characters or events in a literary, visual, or musical art form represent or symbolize ideas and concepts (Wikipedia)
  

All that happened to Job, happened.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

No...your exact words were: "if my child wants to touch a hot stove and I allow it" then I'm responsible for their being hurt. Which I agreed with. But to use that analogy for what we were talking about would seem to me like: Eve wanted to eat the fruit and God allowed it. Which doesn't take into account the warning. Without the warning, how could God judge her? WITH the warning, she is the one who disobeyed and God is not to blame.

You are correct but the whole scope of the paragraph has to to with asking permission -

To me: If I give permission, the right to do something, my approval, my consent, to someone to do something and that "something" is evil or hurtful to someone else - then I, by giving my authority, am just as guilty as the one who "caused" the suffering. . . If I permit, authorize someone to steal . . . then I have to hold myself responsible or accountable for that action. I had a part in it because I authorized it. If my child wants to touch a hot stove and I allow it - then I am responsible for his/her pain and suffering. I don't know if I am expressing what I am trying to correctly!!! Maybe I have a weird way of looking at things!!!

 

[trofimus]

I notice we tend to focus on eve, but she was deceived, it was adam who sinned. Thank you all for the replies, gives me much to study. Shalom.

The description of Eve´s act is a description of a sinful nature. The same process and the same errors we make today.

Your note is a good one, though... we do not have any information about how exactly Adam sinned, what was his reasoning.

A food for thought, whether they were different in their sinful inclination...

 

[wolfwint]

[/SIZE]Yes, God is indeed in control of everything, and at the same time He is not the first Cause of evil.

Christians cannot deny that God holds the entire universe in His hands, and is even aware of every sparrow which falls to the ground. That is what Christ told us. Therefore He is in full control of His universe at all time, and fully aware of every creature, and every thought and intent of the heart.

Having said that, GOD ALLOWS SIN AND EVIL TO EXIST in His universe. But it will only be for "a season". Since a thousand years are merely one day in the sight of God, He has allowed sin and evil for about six days (out of all eternity which is endless). There will come a day when Satan and his evil angels are in Hell, and there is a New Heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness. God has said: "Behold, I make all things new".

Yes, and so long this day has not arrived is time for people to turn to Christ. So we call the time in which we live time of grace.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Only God is perfect.

Any creation has limits ("flaws") that can be exploited if allowed. Even angels make mistakes, as the Bible says. How much more physical creatures having chemistry, fears, pains, diseases etc.

Our spiritual bodies will make us much better in power and glory, but angels are not without flaws either.

You also think that they were created with pain and diseases?
I think I'm missing something in what you're saying.

 

[trofimus]

You also think that they were created with pain and diseases?
I think I'm missing something in what you're saying.

They were certainly created with pain, its a way how our bodies are preserved. Not to feel pain is a leprosy.

I do not think they were created with a disease, I think they were able to got a disease.

Summary: I think their bodies were the same as ours, generally. Their genetics were different, because they were before us and DNA is changing in time. But I do not think their bodies had different laws of working.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Were they in the flesh, or born of the Spirit? I think Scripture makes plain they were the former (see also below, underlined). If they had eaten of the Tree of Life, which I believe to be a type of Christ, they surely would not have died, for it was that very reason God barred them from the Tree of Life, that they would not live forever. Genesis 3:22-24

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.​

I guess I just can't wrap my mind around the thought that God created Adam with inbuilt desires contrary to His Spirit. I can grasp that I myself was born that way but I can't grasp that Adam was that way before the fall.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

They were certainly created with pain, its a way how our bodies are preserved. Not to feel pain is a leprosy.

I do not think they were created with disease, I think they were able to got a disease.

Summary: I think they bodies were the same as ours, generally.

I always assumed their bodies and...powers, were much different than we know now after the fall. I mean, Eve could have had children without pain...it never occurred to me that anyone thought we are basically the same when we're born as they were when they were created. It's fine for you to think that - it just never occurred to me that anyone did think it.

 

[trofimus]

I always assumed their bodies and...powers, were much different than we know now after the fall. I mean, Eve could have had children without pain...it never occurred to me that anyone thought we are basically the same when we're born as they were when they were created. It's fine for you to think that - it just never occurred to me that anyone did think it.

Pain is a signal that our body is in a situation that hurts it.

If their bodies were material, they needed pain to preserve it in the same way as we do...

Pain is not evil. The cause of pain is.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

They were certainly created with pain, its a way how our bodies are preserved. Not to feel pain is a leprosy.

I do not think they were created with a disease, I think they were able to got a disease.

Summary: I think their bodies were the same as ours, generally. Their genetics were different, because they were before us and DNA is changing in time. But I do not think their bodies had different laws of working.

Ah, you edited while I was posting.
My mind grasps no pain in childbirth as a vastly differently working body.

 

[trofimus]

Ah, you edited while I was posting.
My mind grasps no pain in childbirth as a vastly differently working body.

Some women do not have any significant pains during childbirth even today. So I do not think something had to be drastically changed in bodies of Adam and Eve because of it.

Also, our medications can make it go away, it would be impossible with some special curse.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And also pertaining to Adam and Eve being of the flesh, and not the Spirit:

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

4[SUP]5 [/SUP]And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a
living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
[SUP]
46 [/SUP]Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that
which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
[SUP]
47 [/SUP]The first man is of the earth, earthy;
the second man is the Lord from heaven.
[SUP]
48 [/SUP]As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and
as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
[SUP]
49 [/SUP]And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
[SUP]
50 [/SUP]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Corinthians 15:44-50
​

I get that I was born to corrupt and to corruption. I don't quite grasp the thought that Adam was created that way though.
It's just a very different thought than I ever considered or even considered that anyone thought. I'm not saying you're evil, heretical or stupid. Just that this is a new thought that I've never heard and that never crossed my mind.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Adam and Eve were innocent before the Fall, but the fact that Scripture gives us those three reasons for her disobedience, means that there was *something* within her that corresponded to the lusts. Not the sin nature but the tendency to sin.

Okay at this point I'm just going to begin to sound like a broken record but...it never occurred to me that anyone thought Adam was created with a tendency or a bent toward sinning. I get that I myself was born that way but not that he was created that way. I'll let the thing drop because I just need some time to grasp such a new and different thought.